Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 16. September 2024, 03:18:58 »*Cues
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 16. September 2024, 02:03:02 »>Loads up Windows Movie Maker
>Selects "Sky Blue Screen with White Text" for the introductory slide.
>Queue's up Numb by Linkin Park
Motherfuckers, it's time to make a VIDEO.
>Selects "Sky Blue Screen with White Text" for the introductory slide.
>Queue's up Numb by Linkin Park
Motherfuckers, it's time to make a VIDEO.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 15. September 2024, 10:46:54 »hey, at least they are not videos.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 15. September 2024, 10:03:55 »Yes, yes... maybe you are right indeed. Settings for destroying cameras were already far too extreme imo:
After dumping 9 AP rounds (!) into 1 camera to no avail (!!!) i have changed AP round factor or whatever it is called in the dml from 0.50 to 1.75. Now it takes exactly 3 AP shots to take 1 camera down. Combined with standard weapon special ammo 50 % reduction mod i think now this is absolutely spot on.🍸 🍾 ✔
No more possible to mindlessly destroying every & each camera - but keeping it plausible/immersive.
Like this it seems well balanced now. Btw i have 51 mods running at the same time now - it all seems to work just fine - will download silent or 'lonely shock' soon as well.. :3
Yeah the numbers are probably a little too high. I appreciate your adjustments.
Also, that mod manager screenshot gives me nightmares.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 15. September 2024, 09:56:54 »:l
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 15. September 2024, 01:25:18 »So... many.... obsolete/outdated/conflicting... mods.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 14. September 2024, 21:34:33 »*cough* ss2bmm.log *cough*
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 14. September 2024, 19:48:26 »Yes, yes... maybe you are right indeed. Settings for destroying cameras were already far too extreme imo:
After dumping 9 AP rounds (!) into 1 camera to no avail (!!!) i have changed AP round factor or whatever it is called in the dml from 0.50 to 1.75. Now it takes exactly 3 AP shots to take 1 camera down. Combined with standard weapon special ammo 50 % reduction mod i think now this is absolutely spot on. :) 🍸 🍾 ✔
No more possible to mindlessly destroying every & each camera - but keeping it plausible/immersive.
Like this it seems well balanced now. Btw i have 51 mods running at the same time now - it all seems to work just fine - will download silent or 'lonely shock' soon as well.. :3
After dumping 9 AP rounds (!) into 1 camera to no avail (!!!) i have changed AP round factor or whatever it is called in the dml from 0.50 to 1.75. Now it takes exactly 3 AP shots to take 1 camera down. Combined with standard weapon special ammo 50 % reduction mod i think now this is absolutely spot on. :) 🍸 🍾 ✔
No more possible to mindlessly destroying every & each camera - but keeping it plausible/immersive.
Like this it seems well balanced now. Btw i have 51 mods running at the same time now - it all seems to work just fine - will download silent or 'lonely shock' soon as well.. :3
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 05. September 2024, 23:48:28 »Let's say destroying 1 camera requires:
● 3 or 4 standard bullets / 1 or 2 ap round
● 3 or 4 standard shotgun slugs
● 2 lasgun overcharge
● 2 frag or prox / 1 emp / 1 disruption grenade(s)
etc.
This is pretty much how it already is, except cameras are a bit stronger
THEN it would be interesting to additionally send to each destroyed camera: at least 1 maintenance droid and / or protocol droids - to simulate that xerxes thinks camera has failed and / or wants to get them repaired.
And also send swarms of stronger enemies as the game progresses to location wherever a camera is destroyed.. send swaths of protocol droids / assassins / multiple maintenance or other droids etc. on later decks.
As opposed to permanently enhance threat level / upping enemy population - because i think this is a too unforgivable punishment - just resulting in tempting players to reload savestate.
Wouldn't this be deterrence enough for all players to mostly avoid destroying cameras whilst keeping it realistic / believable?
i think there is great game-loop potential in this waiting to be unlocked...
As "cool" as this is, it's really over the top given that destroying cameras is already sufficiently difficult with this mod. It also seems like a solution looking for a problem.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 05. September 2024, 19:20:29 »tiphares4
i haven't tried both security overhaul versions yet, but i'm already trying to make good sugestion as a layman: wouldn't be a combination of both great - without buffing the cameras too much?
Ok, it is mentioned we can tweak damage numbers by ourselves, then
Let's say destroying 1 camera requires:
● 3 or 4 standard bullets / 1 or 2 ap round
● 3 or 4 standard shotgun slugs
● 2 lasgun overcharge
● 2 frag or prox / 1 emp / 1 disruption grenade(s)
etc.
THEN it would be interesting to additionally send to each destroyed camera: at least 1 maintenance droid and / or protocol droids - to simulate that xerxes thinks camera has failed and / or wants to get them repaired.
And also send swarms of stronger enemies as the game progresses to location wherever a camera is destroyed.. send swaths of protocol droids / assassins / multiple maintenance or other droids etc. on later decks.
As opposed to permanently enhance threat level / upping enemy population - because i think this is a too unforgivable punishment - just resulting in tempting players to reload savestate.
Wouldn't this be deterrence enough for all players to mostly avoid destroying cameras whilst keeping it realistic / believable?
i think there is great game-loop potential in this waiting to be unlocked...
i haven't tried both security overhaul versions yet, but i'm already trying to make good sugestion as a layman: wouldn't be a combination of both great - without buffing the cameras too much?
Ok, it is mentioned we can tweak damage numbers by ourselves, then
Let's say destroying 1 camera requires:
● 3 or 4 standard bullets / 1 or 2 ap round
● 3 or 4 standard shotgun slugs
● 2 lasgun overcharge
● 2 frag or prox / 1 emp / 1 disruption grenade(s)
etc.
THEN it would be interesting to additionally send to each destroyed camera: at least 1 maintenance droid and / or protocol droids - to simulate that xerxes thinks camera has failed and / or wants to get them repaired.
And also send swarms of stronger enemies as the game progresses to location wherever a camera is destroyed.. send swaths of protocol droids / assassins / multiple maintenance or other droids etc. on later decks.
As opposed to permanently enhance threat level / upping enemy population - because i think this is a too unforgivable punishment - just resulting in tempting players to reload savestate.
Wouldn't this be deterrence enough for all players to mostly avoid destroying cameras whilst keeping it realistic / believable?
i think there is great game-loop potential in this waiting to be unlocked...
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 03. September 2024, 21:03:11 »It's hardly "ultra-rare". There's more than enough throughout the game to pop the relatively few targets that require it, especially when paired with a sniper pistol for taking out human targets.You're wasting ultra-rare 3006 ammo on cameras?
I just checked an old save from the end of the final level, and I had 89 rounds of 30.06 ammo.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 03. September 2024, 20:34:55 »I have recently been thinking more and more
Wowwwww, it is good to see that this problem is still getting worked on... It is indeed one of the last crucial problems / obstacles between perfectionizing ss2 i guess. I tried also thinking more & more about it with my modest & extremely limited brain capacities🦠, but no solution in sight...
I will try out this mod soon..
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 03. September 2024, 18:26:41 »Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 03. September 2024, 18:22:01 »Uh, no. From the sniper rifle.From the sawed off?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 03. September 2024, 17:43:15 »Sabot rounds are relatively rare, and you have to trade off using your limited rounds on bots vs cameras if you don't have another way to deal with bots, so it's pretty fair overall.
Not to mention, AFAIK you can't put a silencer on the shotguns, so it's going to be a noisy affair.
Still, all of this back and forth goes to show how much better Deus Ex's camera mechanics are compared to the mindless camera shooting we have in SS2.
Not to mention, AFAIK you can't put a silencer on the shotguns, so it's going to be a noisy affair.
Still, all of this back and forth goes to show how much better Deus Ex's camera mechanics are compared to the mindless camera shooting we have in SS2.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 03. September 2024, 17:28:59 »shotgun + sabot rounds = problem solved. no need to max out.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 03. September 2024, 17:25:24 »From the sawed off?
Also, getting maximum points in rifles IS the resource investment.
Also, getting maximum points in rifles IS the resource investment.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 03. September 2024, 17:24:39 »That's why I always max my Rifle skill. Pops cameras in one shot....outside of hacking, there's no real easy way to bypass [Deus Ex] cameras without spending resources.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 03. September 2024, 16:55:17 »I have recently been thinking more and more about the Security mechanics and how easy cameras are to bypass by simply destroying them. I know many other mod authors have had similar thoughts and have come to their own conclusions for how to resolve the issue. I myself have shilled Alarming Cameras in the past as I believe it's been the best solution to the problem so far, however I don't particularly like it much either for a few reasons, mostly because I feel like the punishment (setting off the alarm) is too generous a tradeoff for permanently removing a threat, and while alarming cameras has introduced some more interesting interactions into the game in some playthroughs (both my own, and various ones I have watched), it's still rather easy to either hack security (made a bit harder by making security terminals require HACK of 3 in RSD) or freeze/stun it with stasis, and once they have been disabled, you can basically blow up every camera quite easily thereafter for almost no cost. I also feel like these solutions further emphasise Hacking as a skill, and make it even more important, when it's already a very good skill, because outside of investing in heavy weapons or psi, a typical player will need to get hacking to eliminate cameras without setting off alarms.
Since I have been playing (and modding!) Deus Ex again recently, I've come to realise that it's camera system is FAR superior (although hacking is a bit too good there too, I'm noticing a pattern...), and one of the main reasons why is because, outside of hacking, there's no real easy way to bypass cameras without spending resources. You can either blow it up, which is a costly and noisy process, or bypass it with a multitool or EMP/Nanovirus grenade, which drains precious resources.
As an experiment, I have decided to try and replicate some of that gameplay in SS2, to make what I believe is a more interesting trade-off mechanic. Now, destroying a camera can't just be done simply and easily with a wrench. Cameras have a fake "damage threshold" system (done by making them take damage via a special stim) so that you need AP rounds, EMP, disruption grenades, or overcharged laser shots to take them down, and they are much tougher than before. You can't simply destroy them with cheap ammo or for free with a few wrench hits anymore.
This essentially means now there's two "tiers" of bypassing cameras. All of the old methods of bypassing them without destroying them still work - hacking security, disabling cameras with the stasis field generator or the psi power, etc, and their temporary nature affords them a naturally low cost. Meanwhile, bypassing them permanently is a far more valuable prospect, especially for high-traffic areas, but also requires significantly more resource investment. This also naturally devalues hacking slightly (which in my opinion is a good thing, since the skill is already VERY good), because it reinforces it's place as purely a temporary solution to the problem, as you can't destroy cameras with impunity anymore while the security system is hacked. Previously, hacking was usually only done once upon finding the first security terminal on a given deck, and the player would then be able to walk around and shoot all of the cameras with no consequences. Not anymore! Expect to hack terminals multiple times upon returning to areas you've previously been!
I have uploaded an alternate version of Security Overhaul that contains the new tougher cameras, and doesn't contain any of the changes of the other Security Overhaul version, so there won't be any extra spawns when blowing up cameras. I would be very interested if people could test it and give me feedback on how they feel about the idea overall, as well as the specific balance of the numbers (like whether or not you think the cameras are too tough, not tough enough, etc). It's very possible that I may have overtuned things and the cameras may be a little too tough overall. It's also possible that this is a horrible idea and I should abandon it entirely.
Additionally, I have made the cameras rotate slightly faster as a way to potentially make them a little more dangerous to leave alive, as they are generally quite easy to avoid currently. If more of them end up staying alive because of the resource cost to destroy them, this may not be necessary as they may already pose enough of a threat at that point, so it's likely this change will be removed in a future version.
I am very interested to hear people's thoughts on this. While I'm not certain this is the correct way to solve this problem, I feel like I may be on the right track with it. If not, it was only an hour or so of work and was very fun to create, so if it ends up being detrimental to the game overall, then it's no big loss.
Since I have been playing (and modding!) Deus Ex again recently, I've come to realise that it's camera system is FAR superior (although hacking is a bit too good there too, I'm noticing a pattern...), and one of the main reasons why is because, outside of hacking, there's no real easy way to bypass cameras without spending resources. You can either blow it up, which is a costly and noisy process, or bypass it with a multitool or EMP/Nanovirus grenade, which drains precious resources.
As an experiment, I have decided to try and replicate some of that gameplay in SS2, to make what I believe is a more interesting trade-off mechanic. Now, destroying a camera can't just be done simply and easily with a wrench. Cameras have a fake "damage threshold" system (done by making them take damage via a special stim) so that you need AP rounds, EMP, disruption grenades, or overcharged laser shots to take them down, and they are much tougher than before. You can't simply destroy them with cheap ammo or for free with a few wrench hits anymore.
This essentially means now there's two "tiers" of bypassing cameras. All of the old methods of bypassing them without destroying them still work - hacking security, disabling cameras with the stasis field generator or the psi power, etc, and their temporary nature affords them a naturally low cost. Meanwhile, bypassing them permanently is a far more valuable prospect, especially for high-traffic areas, but also requires significantly more resource investment. This also naturally devalues hacking slightly (which in my opinion is a good thing, since the skill is already VERY good), because it reinforces it's place as purely a temporary solution to the problem, as you can't destroy cameras with impunity anymore while the security system is hacked. Previously, hacking was usually only done once upon finding the first security terminal on a given deck, and the player would then be able to walk around and shoot all of the cameras with no consequences. Not anymore! Expect to hack terminals multiple times upon returning to areas you've previously been!
I have uploaded an alternate version of Security Overhaul that contains the new tougher cameras, and doesn't contain any of the changes of the other Security Overhaul version, so there won't be any extra spawns when blowing up cameras. I would be very interested if people could test it and give me feedback on how they feel about the idea overall, as well as the specific balance of the numbers (like whether or not you think the cameras are too tough, not tough enough, etc). It's very possible that I may have overtuned things and the cameras may be a little too tough overall. It's also possible that this is a horrible idea and I should abandon it entirely.
Additionally, I have made the cameras rotate slightly faster as a way to potentially make them a little more dangerous to leave alive, as they are generally quite easy to avoid currently. If more of them end up staying alive because of the resource cost to destroy them, this may not be necessary as they may already pose enough of a threat at that point, so it's likely this change will be removed in a future version.
I am very interested to hear people's thoughts on this. While I'm not certain this is the correct way to solve this problem, I feel like I may be on the right track with it. If not, it was only an hour or so of work and was very fun to create, so if it ends up being detrimental to the game overall, then it's no big loss.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 06. June 2024, 02:12:17 »I have uploaded an alternate version of Standard Ammo as Standard which replaces 50% of the special ammo, rather than all of it.
Please keep in mind, replacing 50% of the ammo does NOT guarantee an even distribution, because the replacement is done per stack, not per round. A stack of ammo with 6 bullets in it has the same chance of being replaced as one with 18 bullets.
Please keep in mind, replacing 50% of the ammo does NOT guarantee an even distribution, because the replacement is done per stack, not per round. A stack of ammo with 6 bullets in it has the same chance of being replaced as one with 18 bullets.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 08. April 2024, 13:45:21 »Ooh, or how about a hybrid with no head who carries bombs in each hand while running at you screaming?
Wow, that sounds serious!
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 07. April 2024, 21:48:14 »AAAAAAAA yourself!
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 07. April 2024, 21:00:59 »Ooh, or how about a hybrid with no head who carries bombs in each hand while running at you screaming?
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 07. April 2024, 17:53:06 »How about a mod that creates a new enemy type?
A cyborg midwife that is replacing broken cameras, or is carrying a camera with her so that a alarm is triggered when she sees you.
A cyborg midwife that is replacing broken cameras, or is carrying a camera with her so that a alarm is triggered when she sees you.
Posted by: Hans Schmidt
« on: 07. April 2024, 16:19:52 »I think nearly indestructible cameras (except with explosives), or spawning too many enemies, will just make the game more frustrating, forcing players into specific playstyle. In my view, this is common failing in game design - overly determined playstyle 'as intended by developer'. The best games try to avoid this, and for a good reason, since it kills player creativity.
Also, with these suggestions there is no connection to the skill system, completely bypassing the rpg element of the game.
A general increase of camera health is definitely good, though with limited impact in the longer game.
The respawning cameras idea is interesting. You are correct they are too local most of the time. But i think adding enemy spawns is a bit too 'global'. If destroying a camera spawned a single enemy or two, coming to investigate somewhere near the area with the destroyed camera, i think that would be quite balanced. Is such enemy behavior possible? That is, is it possible to limit the new spawns to specific area?
Also, with these suggestions there is no connection to the skill system, completely bypassing the rpg element of the game.
A general increase of camera health is definitely good, though with limited impact in the longer game.
The respawning cameras idea is interesting. You are correct they are too local most of the time. But i think adding enemy spawns is a bit too 'global'. If destroying a camera spawned a single enemy or two, coming to investigate somewhere near the area with the destroyed camera, i think that would be quite balanced. Is such enemy behavior possible? That is, is it possible to limit the new spawns to specific area?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 28. March 2024, 01:49:55 »What happened to the restrictive saving mod?
It's basically impossible to do because the engine doesn't allow it.
Posted by: JossiRossi
« on: 27. March 2024, 23:28:45 »This is exactly what the mod does.
When you destroy a camera (hacked or not), it's linked alarm ecology has it's spawn timer set to something reasonable, and it's then set as a normal ecology, so it can spawn at regular intervals irrespective of the alarm status.
Technically both the frequency and total number of spawns is increased, because each ecology spawns independently up to it's limit, to the point where the spawns will eventually be much higher than vanilla (medsci1 only has 1 normal ecology. It has numerous alarm ecologies)
Ugh, serves me for posting instead of reading 🤦♂️
Posted by: Join2
« on: 27. March 2024, 20:33:56 »What happened to the restrictive saving mod?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 27. March 2024, 16:16:52 »I imagine this would be out of scope, but if destroying cameras increased random spawn frequency
This is exactly what the mod does.
When you destroy a camera (hacked or not), it's linked alarm ecology has it's spawn timer set to something reasonable, and it's then set as a normal ecology, so it can spawn at regular intervals irrespective of the alarm status.
Technically both the frequency and total number of spawns is increased, because each ecology spawns independently up to it's limit, to the point where the spawns will eventually be much higher than vanilla (medsci1 only has 1 normal ecology. It has numerous alarm ecologies)
Posted by: JossiRossi
« on: 26. March 2024, 22:12:26 »I imagine this would be out of scope, but if destroying cameras increased random spawn frequency, I'd be much more willing to leave them in place. Or if breaking cameras would spawn harder enemies. I feel like the threat of cameras is most early game anyway so having a couple rumblers spawn cause I broke a camera would certainly make me reconsider.
The most out of scope, and more just gameplay theory crafting would be having waves of enemies appear instead of just increasing the respawn rate. Maybe each camera broken increases the size of the response, until if you break all of them then you get a final wave style attack.
The most out of scope, and more just gameplay theory crafting would be having waves of enemies appear instead of just increasing the respawn rate. Maybe each camera broken increases the size of the response, until if you break all of them then you get a final wave style attack.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 23. March 2024, 14:49:40 »I already had this same idea and already asked RocketMan for a model.Extra camera health seems like a good idea to try out. Perhaps an extra step just for certain locations only, would be special cameras that either a) can only be destroyed via explosives, or b) are greatly resistant to non-explosive damage, so it'd take a lot of non-explosive ammo to knock them out. You'd need to make those types of rare cameras visually distinct though, like a simple colour change. A different, "bulkier" camera model would be ideal, but that's a lot harder & way, way, way out of scope for a mini-mod like this, colour changes would have to suffice.
Posted by: Livo
« on: 23. March 2024, 07:27:23 »Extra camera health seems like a good idea to try out. Perhaps an extra step just for certain locations only, would be special cameras that either a) can only be destroyed via explosives, or b) are greatly resistant to non-explosive damage, so it'd take a lot of non-explosive ammo to knock them out. You'd need to make those types of rare cameras visually distinct though, like a simple colour change. A different, "bulkier" camera model would be ideal, but that's a lot harder & way, way, way out of scope for a mini-mod like this, colour changes would have to suffice.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 22. March 2024, 07:20:32 »I considered camera respawning, but the reality is that there's no real reason to go back to most areas on most decks, so there's only 1-2 cameras in the whole game that would be relevant (the one in the area in Hydro near the energy recharger with the two turrets comes to mind), so it would hardly change anything.
I have been recently playing Deus Ex again, and having a big think about how cameras work in that game. They are dangerous because they can set off alarms similar to SS2, and aren't easily destroyable. So maybe the solution is literally just cameras with more health.
I have been recently playing Deus Ex again, and having a big think about how cameras work in that game. They are dangerous because they can set off alarms similar to SS2, and aren't easily destroyable. So maybe the solution is literally just cameras with more health.
Posted by: Leon The Hero
« on: 21. March 2024, 00:56:37 »What if cameras got repaired after some time?
That would eliminate the "one and done" nature of destroying the cameras, and could help encourage avoidance if the cameras get repaired frequently enough that they're not worth spending resources to destroy again. Maybe even combine it with features similar to Alarming Cameras, or Secmod's enemy spawning, to make the resource cost of repeatedly destroying cameras even worse. Might even help to disincentivize hacking too, if the nanite cost for repeatedly hacking the security stations gets too high
If other enemies can respawn, why not the cameras too? (and maybe even turrets)
Xerxes has plenty of maintenance droids at his disposal, and if the Many can make cyborg midwives, surely they can repair some cameras
That would eliminate the "one and done" nature of destroying the cameras, and could help encourage avoidance if the cameras get repaired frequently enough that they're not worth spending resources to destroy again. Maybe even combine it with features similar to Alarming Cameras, or Secmod's enemy spawning, to make the resource cost of repeatedly destroying cameras even worse. Might even help to disincentivize hacking too, if the nanite cost for repeatedly hacking the security stations gets too high
If other enemies can respawn, why not the cameras too? (and maybe even turrets)
Xerxes has plenty of maintenance droids at his disposal, and if the Many can make cyborg midwives, surely they can repair some cameras
Posted by: Hans Schmidt
« on: 17. February 2024, 11:42:48 »See, i think your approach is based on a false assumption. That is what i tried to point out in my first paragraph about the real problem.
SS2 is not a stealth game, even though it was made by the same studio and runs on the same engine as Thief. You have to fight, and that is the main source of fun (heck, even in Thief it would not be very fun in you couldn't blackjack enemies, and use water arrows to douse lights). The only place where i sneak is the cargo bays to avoid waking protocol droids, and i think we can agree that is not the most praised part of the game.
What you criticize - the ability of all specializations to deal with cameras, is in fact the main strength of the Alarming Cameras mod. This is what i tried to point out in the second paragraph - cameras are an alternative obstacle to normal enemies, and just like normal enemies the different specializations need different ways to deal with them. The whole purpose of choices is to support different playstyles after all.
So the design philosophy of forcing players to avoid cameras is, in my view, misguided. Mods which are based on this goal in my experience only increase imbalance, typically in favor of hacking, while making it more annoying. That is why i consider the softer approach of Alarming Cameras better, only it is incomplete.
The primary challenge in the base game is spotting cameras before they spot you - problem is this doesn't involve any in-game skill, and is too easy (shortening the time to alarm would help a little). Alarming Cameras adds the in-game skill check, forcing you to think about cybermodule allocation more carefully, to balance different challenges (enemies, turrets, cameras), and each specialization now has a weakness, which improves balance. This is in my view definitely a step in the right direction.
You are correct that this added challenge only works in the beginning, but i think it can be extended by adding more gradual challenges and downsides, instead of forcing everyone (except hacker) to play this game as a crappier version of Thief.
So, what i think we need are several levels of 'dealing' with cameras, with different upsides and downsides, tied to investment in skills.
I think we can both agree that just shooting cameras without preparation should be punished, and triggering alarm is the appropriate consequence. The only thing i am not sure about is if an alarm it not too damaging an event, basically motivating players to just reload. Perhaps shortening the initial duration of an alarm, but a mechanism for prolonging it (cameras detecting corpses, or sounds of fighting near them/bullets flying in their view) would help? That would make hiding a valid solution. Or perhaps slowing down the enemies' ability to find you if you hide, and instead they would run to the camera itself and stay near as permanent but not respawning obstacle?
Temporary suppression should be available to everyone, and reasonably early, but with some investment. It should be just inconvenient enough to tempt players to permanent solutions though (probably just by forcing them to spend limited resources).
Permanent suppresion by destroying cameras should also be available to everyone, but should involve a (not too onerous) downside. I think using a respawning protocol droid is appropriate, it is dangerous but only if you fail to notice it, just like a camera. In select levels, it could even spawn something bigger, but i don't think that would be appropriate for every camera.
Permanent solution without a downside could be restricted. Thinking about it, even the approach of Hard Security Minimod of hacking cameras individually could be integrated here - it is the price of dealing with cameras without any permanent downside. That it would only be available to hacker wouldn't matter that much now, because other ways would be available. Or perhaps one of the more advanced psi powers could do the same?
SS2 is not a stealth game, even though it was made by the same studio and runs on the same engine as Thief. You have to fight, and that is the main source of fun (heck, even in Thief it would not be very fun in you couldn't blackjack enemies, and use water arrows to douse lights). The only place where i sneak is the cargo bays to avoid waking protocol droids, and i think we can agree that is not the most praised part of the game.
What you criticize - the ability of all specializations to deal with cameras, is in fact the main strength of the Alarming Cameras mod. This is what i tried to point out in the second paragraph - cameras are an alternative obstacle to normal enemies, and just like normal enemies the different specializations need different ways to deal with them. The whole purpose of choices is to support different playstyles after all.
So the design philosophy of forcing players to avoid cameras is, in my view, misguided. Mods which are based on this goal in my experience only increase imbalance, typically in favor of hacking, while making it more annoying. That is why i consider the softer approach of Alarming Cameras better, only it is incomplete.
The primary challenge in the base game is spotting cameras before they spot you - problem is this doesn't involve any in-game skill, and is too easy (shortening the time to alarm would help a little). Alarming Cameras adds the in-game skill check, forcing you to think about cybermodule allocation more carefully, to balance different challenges (enemies, turrets, cameras), and each specialization now has a weakness, which improves balance. This is in my view definitely a step in the right direction.
You are correct that this added challenge only works in the beginning, but i think it can be extended by adding more gradual challenges and downsides, instead of forcing everyone (except hacker) to play this game as a crappier version of Thief.
So, what i think we need are several levels of 'dealing' with cameras, with different upsides and downsides, tied to investment in skills.
I think we can both agree that just shooting cameras without preparation should be punished, and triggering alarm is the appropriate consequence. The only thing i am not sure about is if an alarm it not too damaging an event, basically motivating players to just reload. Perhaps shortening the initial duration of an alarm, but a mechanism for prolonging it (cameras detecting corpses, or sounds of fighting near them/bullets flying in their view) would help? That would make hiding a valid solution. Or perhaps slowing down the enemies' ability to find you if you hide, and instead they would run to the camera itself and stay near as permanent but not respawning obstacle?
Temporary suppression should be available to everyone, and reasonably early, but with some investment. It should be just inconvenient enough to tempt players to permanent solutions though (probably just by forcing them to spend limited resources).
Permanent suppresion by destroying cameras should also be available to everyone, but should involve a (not too onerous) downside. I think using a respawning protocol droid is appropriate, it is dangerous but only if you fail to notice it, just like a camera. In select levels, it could even spawn something bigger, but i don't think that would be appropriate for every camera.
Permanent solution without a downside could be restricted. Thinking about it, even the approach of Hard Security Minimod of hacking cameras individually could be integrated here - it is the price of dealing with cameras without any permanent downside. That it would only be available to hacker wouldn't matter that much now, because other ways would be available. Or perhaps one of the more advanced psi powers could do the same?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 17. February 2024, 00:55:12 »I just had a 'debate' with ZylonBane in the Alarming Cameras mod thread about this, so maybe i could give my two cents here, instead of spamming that thread.
First, we should identify correctly what is the real problem here: it is not being able to shoot cameras, but that shooting cameras is too easy and the optimal way to play, and that shooting everything is basically the best way to deal with things because its permanent. This makes the marine approach to the game easier, especially at the early levels when you don't have enough cybermodules to hybridize yet. Hacking is practically never taken because of cameras, but only because of turrets/security crates.
The second thing that is important to realize, and that i think many mods get wrong, is that cameras+alarms are an alternative to normal enemies. What i mean by this is that they should be balanced against them, and specifically they should not be strengthened to the point they dominate the gameplay. Dealing with cameras should be about as difficult as dealing with normal enemies, and there should be multiple ways to do so.
For the above reasons, i strongly prefer the Alarming Cameras mod over the Hard Security Mode minimod. Specifically, requiring hacking of cameras individually is too cumbersome, expensive, and makes hacking practically a requirement. In the Alarming Cameras mod there are 3 ways to prevent the alarm that starts on their destruction - hacking a security computer, using a previously useless lvl 1 psi power, or using stasis field (this part is now in SCP too i think).
So, the philosophy of that mod is that you can still shoot cameras, but now require skill use before that, which costs cybermodules, and balances the different specializations, since now every one of them will have a weak spot. The only weakness of this approach is that it is just a skillcheck, and once you are in later levels, it will not have much impact.
So, i think tiphares4 got it right that your approach alone is either too week or too brutal, and should instead be combined with the previous mods approaches, only i would advise to avoid making them too difficult by requiring camera hacking like Hard Security Mod does.
Specifically, i agree that (safely) destroying a camera should increase the general level of alertness of enemies, represented by additional spawns. But i don't think one generic spawn per camera, or even worse replacing alarms is the right balance. Instead, you should just replace the camera with one _very slowly respawning_ protocol bot (or similar easy but potentially dangerous enemy appropriate to level) patrolling near the place where the camera was, if this is possible. Or even just standing there as a guard.
What this will do, in combination with the Alarming Cameras approach, is replacing having to hack/psi/stasis/sneak every time with only doing it once, but then having to shoot/stun 'mobile camera' every time you go through that corridor. And that i think is not only well balanced, but also very realistic and thematic.
In fact, by a couple of changes this could be improved further. The psi skill which allows you to shoot a camera in the Alarming Cameras mod should be modified to have 3 functionalities:
1. it should temporarily suppress a camera (or all cameras), allowing it to be used repeatedly without destroying cameras.
2. it should allow shooting them without alarm (like now), allowing it to destroy cameras permanently, but now with a downside.
3. it should shorten remaining alarm duration (like in vanilla game, but perhaps stronger), allowing to survive a mistake without reloading.
This would make it equivalent to hacking, but only for cameras (not turrets), and with much shorter durations, requiring more frequent usage of the psi power. This goes in line with other psi abilities, and even has an intuitive explanation - the power doesn't disable cameras, but makes the security 'observer' not notice for a while.
Then adding the requirement to hack a security computer to disable alarm, and to start alarm on failed hack instead of breaking the computer (as in Hard Security Mod), would make dealing with alarms a bit more difficult and interesting, making it less of an all or nothing scenario leading to instant reload.
The only problem with this change was pointed by RoSoDude in the Alarming Cameras thread, that this would motivate the marine to simply reload the game if the alarm is triggered, since they would have no way to turn it off. I honestly don't know how to solve this, since there is no way to disable alarm with weapons.
What do you guys think?
I think Security is one of those things that is basically never going to be properly fixed to everyone's satisfaction because it's so deeply ingrained with everything else in the game.
You're right in that they either end up being too hard or too easy, most likely because their design is too simplistic. They are basically spotters that are easy to destroy, that make your life miserable if they spot you.
The issue in vanilla of course is that they are too easy to bypass completely by destroying them. I think this is also an issue with Alarming Cameras, it just requires a few extra steps. Each character type (gun focused, tech focused, and psi focused) all have a relatively cheap way of reliably dealing with cameras in the AC mod, which is why I feel like it doesn't really solve the problem to a satisfactory degree (sorry @RoSoDude, it's a fun mod and I think it's an improvement over vanilla, but still doesn't quite solve the problem). Secmod tries to punish you for destroying them by spawning an enemy to come and investigate, which I also feel isn't a good solution because it's a one-time penalty for permanently removing cameras, and is generally still worth it.
I guess upon thinking about this again, the big issue with cameras revolves around killing them. It seems like a far too binary threat. They are very dangerous, so they can't be too hard to stop if they do spot you, and there has to be a way for everyone to destroy them with some investment. Even with the above mods, this can be done with relative impunity most of the time with some basic preparation (RSD makes it a bit harder because Tech needs Hack 3 to access security terminals, but everyone can still do the "shoot and press on security console" strategy which works very well especially in the early game).
The ONE camera I consistently find interesting to deal with in Alarming Cameras is the one between the cargo bay doors in engineering, precisely because you CAN'T simply destroy it, because the nearest security computer is in command control which you will need to fight past multiple turrets and enemies to access at that point. Because of this, whenever I see anyone stream SS2 with AC and RSD, that one camera always results in interesting moments - RoSoDude tends to avoid it, others I know will use the stasis field on it, and others tend to shoot it and wait out the alarm (which IMO is a bad strategy).
Based on all this, it seems like cameras are at their absolute best when the gameplay promotes stealth, which virtually doesn't exist when the gameplay revolves around using resources to destroy cameras. Virtually all mods based around security opt to make killing them harder, under the idea that this will naturally promote avoidance. In my experience, the reality is that people invest more early into killing them, and then the game plays pretty much as it normally would. I'm not really happy with my solution either, for the same reason. It's just a much harder (and more permanent) version of what came before.
I was going to make an "indestructible cameras" mod, which essentially enforced avoidance. But I was dissuaded to do it because it had other implications, like making hacking too powerful.
If I was making the game, I would have taken a different approach. Instead of making Cameras spawn enemies when they spot you but being avoidable by killing them, I would have instead had high-security rooms (such as armories) on each deck, with extra resources. If you're spotted by a camera, or if you kill a camera, these rooms go into lockdown and become inaccessible. This way, you don't have to worry about cameras if you don't want to, but there's a strong reason to avoid them. Developers don't need to ensure every player has a cheap, reliably way to deal with cameras. Then, I would make hacking security computers only affect Turrets, and I would allow the player to hack and gain access to said rooms after lockdown with a HACK skill of 6.
Posted by: Hans Schmidt
« on: 16. February 2024, 17:44:35 »I just had a 'debate' with ZylonBane in the Alarming Cameras mod thread about this, so maybe i could give my two cents here, instead of spamming that thread.
First, we should identify correctly what is the real problem here: it is not being able to shoot cameras, but that shooting cameras is too easy and the optimal way to play, and that shooting everything is basically the best way to deal with things because its permanent. This makes the marine approach to the game easier, especially at the early levels when you don't have enough cybermodules to hybridize yet. Hacking is practically never taken because of cameras, but only because of turrets/security crates.
The second thing that is important to realize, and that i think many mods get wrong, is that cameras+alarms are an alternative to normal enemies. What i mean by this is that they should be balanced against them, and specifically they should not be strengthened to the point they dominate the gameplay. Dealing with cameras should be about as difficult as dealing with normal enemies, and there should be multiple ways to do so.
For the above reasons, i strongly prefer the Alarming Cameras mod over the Hard Security Mode minimod. Specifically, requiring hacking of cameras individually is too cumbersome, expensive, and makes hacking practically a requirement. In the Alarming Cameras mod there are 3 ways to prevent the alarm that starts on their destruction - hacking a security computer, using a previously useless lvl 1 psi power, or using stasis field (this part is now in SCP too i think).
So, the philosophy of that mod is that you can still shoot cameras, but now require skill use before that, which costs cybermodules, and balances the different specializations, since now every one of them will have a weak spot. The only weakness of this approach is that it is just a skillcheck, and once you are in later levels, it will not have much impact.
So, i think tiphares4 got it right that your approach alone is either too week or too brutal, and should instead be combined with the previous mods approaches, only i would advise to avoid making them too difficult by requiring camera hacking like Hard Security Mod does.
Specifically, i agree that (safely) destroying a camera should increase the general level of alertness of enemies, represented by additional spawns. But i don't think one generic spawn per camera, or even worse replacing alarms is the right balance. Instead, you should just replace the camera with one _very slowly respawning_ protocol bot (or similar easy but potentially dangerous enemy appropriate to level) patrolling near the place where the camera was, if this is possible. Or even just standing there as a guard.
What this will do, in combination with the Alarming Cameras approach, is replacing having to hack/psi/stasis/sneak every time with only doing it once, but then having to shoot/stun 'mobile camera' every time you go through that corridor. And that i think is not only well balanced, but also very realistic and thematic.
In fact, by a couple of changes this could be improved further. The psi skill which allows you to shoot a camera in the Alarming Cameras mod should be modified to have 3 functionalities:
1. it should temporarily suppress a camera (or all cameras), allowing it to be used repeatedly without destroying cameras.
2. it should allow shooting them without alarm (like now), allowing it to destroy cameras permanently, but now with a downside.
3. it should shorten remaining alarm duration (like in vanilla game, but perhaps stronger), allowing to survive a mistake without reloading.
This would make it equivalent to hacking, but only for cameras (not turrets), and with much shorter durations, requiring more frequent usage of the psi power. This goes in line with other psi abilities, and even has an intuitive explanation - the power doesn't disable cameras, but makes the security 'observer' not notice for a while.
Then adding the requirement to hack a security computer to disable alarm, and to start alarm on failed hack instead of breaking the computer (as in Hard Security Mod), would make dealing with alarms a bit more difficult and interesting, making it less of an all or nothing scenario leading to instant reload.
The only problem with this change was pointed by RoSoDude in the Alarming Cameras thread, that this would motivate the marine to simply reload the game if the alarm is triggered, since they would have no way to turn it off. I honestly don't know how to solve this, since there is no way to disable alarm with weapons.
What do you guys think?
First, we should identify correctly what is the real problem here: it is not being able to shoot cameras, but that shooting cameras is too easy and the optimal way to play, and that shooting everything is basically the best way to deal with things because its permanent. This makes the marine approach to the game easier, especially at the early levels when you don't have enough cybermodules to hybridize yet. Hacking is practically never taken because of cameras, but only because of turrets/security crates.
The second thing that is important to realize, and that i think many mods get wrong, is that cameras+alarms are an alternative to normal enemies. What i mean by this is that they should be balanced against them, and specifically they should not be strengthened to the point they dominate the gameplay. Dealing with cameras should be about as difficult as dealing with normal enemies, and there should be multiple ways to do so.
For the above reasons, i strongly prefer the Alarming Cameras mod over the Hard Security Mode minimod. Specifically, requiring hacking of cameras individually is too cumbersome, expensive, and makes hacking practically a requirement. In the Alarming Cameras mod there are 3 ways to prevent the alarm that starts on their destruction - hacking a security computer, using a previously useless lvl 1 psi power, or using stasis field (this part is now in SCP too i think).
So, the philosophy of that mod is that you can still shoot cameras, but now require skill use before that, which costs cybermodules, and balances the different specializations, since now every one of them will have a weak spot. The only weakness of this approach is that it is just a skillcheck, and once you are in later levels, it will not have much impact.
So, i think tiphares4 got it right that your approach alone is either too week or too brutal, and should instead be combined with the previous mods approaches, only i would advise to avoid making them too difficult by requiring camera hacking like Hard Security Mod does.
Specifically, i agree that (safely) destroying a camera should increase the general level of alertness of enemies, represented by additional spawns. But i don't think one generic spawn per camera, or even worse replacing alarms is the right balance. Instead, you should just replace the camera with one _very slowly respawning_ protocol bot (or similar easy but potentially dangerous enemy appropriate to level) patrolling near the place where the camera was, if this is possible. Or even just standing there as a guard.
What this will do, in combination with the Alarming Cameras approach, is replacing having to hack/psi/stasis/sneak every time with only doing it once, but then having to shoot/stun 'mobile camera' every time you go through that corridor. And that i think is not only well balanced, but also very realistic and thematic.
In fact, by a couple of changes this could be improved further. The psi skill which allows you to shoot a camera in the Alarming Cameras mod should be modified to have 3 functionalities:
1. it should temporarily suppress a camera (or all cameras), allowing it to be used repeatedly without destroying cameras.
2. it should allow shooting them without alarm (like now), allowing it to destroy cameras permanently, but now with a downside.
3. it should shorten remaining alarm duration (like in vanilla game, but perhaps stronger), allowing to survive a mistake without reloading.
This would make it equivalent to hacking, but only for cameras (not turrets), and with much shorter durations, requiring more frequent usage of the psi power. This goes in line with other psi abilities, and even has an intuitive explanation - the power doesn't disable cameras, but makes the security 'observer' not notice for a while.
Then adding the requirement to hack a security computer to disable alarm, and to start alarm on failed hack instead of breaking the computer (as in Hard Security Mod), would make dealing with alarms a bit more difficult and interesting, making it less of an all or nothing scenario leading to instant reload.
The only problem with this change was pointed by RoSoDude in the Alarming Cameras thread, that this would motivate the marine to simply reload the game if the alarm is triggered, since they would have no way to turn it off. I honestly don't know how to solve this, since there is no way to disable alarm with weapons.
What do you guys think?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 04. January 2024, 23:52:25 »At the moment it just converts each security ecology into a regular ecology and increases it's respawn time by a significant amount.
This is actually quite significant as most maps will have 1-2 regular ecologies and up to 10 security ecologies, so if you destroy all the cameras your respawn rate goes up by 10 times or so!
That does seem pretty extreme, which is why I am unhappy with it.
Keeping it as security/protocol/etc droids could work, maybe, but I feel like it would tip the enemy balance too far.
Simply spawning one enemy to come investigate is what Secmod does and I feel like it's not a big enough incentive to not destroy cameras, especially on earlier decks where it might just be 1 pipe hybrid that comes to investigate.
Also, do NOT use Alarming Cameras with the SCP Security Overhaul. I am sure that's not what RoSoDude intended, and both mods touch the same areas of gameplay. Even if they weren't incompatible on a technical level, I'm sure they would be very incompatible from a gameplay standpoint.
This is actually quite significant as most maps will have 1-2 regular ecologies and up to 10 security ecologies, so if you destroy all the cameras your respawn rate goes up by 10 times or so!
That does seem pretty extreme, which is why I am unhappy with it.
Keeping it as security/protocol/etc droids could work, maybe, but I feel like it would tip the enemy balance too far.
Simply spawning one enemy to come investigate is what Secmod does and I feel like it's not a big enough incentive to not destroy cameras, especially on earlier decks where it might just be 1 pipe hybrid that comes to investigate.
Also, do NOT use Alarming Cameras with the SCP Security Overhaul. I am sure that's not what RoSoDude intended, and both mods touch the same areas of gameplay. Even if they weren't incompatible on a technical level, I'm sure they would be very incompatible from a gameplay standpoint.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 04. January 2024, 20:46:33 »I am neither a developer nor a programmer, but having almost done one complete playthrough with rosedude's 'Alarming Cameras' & briefly testing that new SCP 'Hard Security Mode' mini mod even i keep thinking of a solution... -.-'cameras are at their most fun when you're being stealthy and playing the avoidance game [but] I don't entirely like this idea or it's implementation, I feel like there's probably still a better approach to this problem
Personally i feel that this is not right approach, because it is irreversible - thats a massive penalty / handicap for the player throughout for the rest of the game.- In response to the reduction in automated security, Xerxes responds by increasing the amount of enemies patrolling the area, in order to replace his automated scanning capabilities. In gameplay terms, this means you will see more enemies spawning the more cameras you destroy...
First of all, i didn't try 'Security Overhaul' yet, but i assume those patrolling enemies will only consist of security & protocol droids, right? Because Xerxes doesn't have control over the Many, yes?
I would suggest sending 1 (or up to 3) maintenance/security/assault robot(s) and/or protocol droids to each destroyed camera should be more than enough to incentivise most players to keep being sneaky at most times.
I think best solution is to combine that + Alarming Camera & Hard Security Mod; so you first need to hack a console if you really have to take down cameras, without setting the usual alarm off - which would normally attract a bunch of all sorts of dudes as before BUT even when 'safely' having taken a camera down: there will be a patrol consisting of at least 1 of Xerxes' mechanical henchmen inbound in the longrun ('silent alarm'), replacing his eyes & ears in that area...
This + being able to hack a camera directly, but for a relatively high price (it's 10 nanites already in that current mini mod -.-). Maybe 5 nanites would be the sweet spot & enough incentive for the player only to hack selected cameras. Should be the right balance of sneaking & hacking & destruction.
how does it sound? hopefully good.. I think this would turn security cameras + hacking stations finally into a gameplay loop of awesome quality.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 02. October 2023, 12:55:01 »I have just made a new modification - Security Overhaul.
One of the big problems in vanilla is that there's no real threat posed by cameras or the security system. It's as easy as shooting them. As a result, the security gameplay is extremely lackluster and boring - cameras are a minor nuisance, then you deal with them, and never have to worry about them again.
Various mods have attempted to resolve this. With Secmod you get an extra enemy coming to investigate when a camera is destroyed and with Alarming Cameras the cameras will alarm when shot if Security isn't hacked.
However, I don't particularly like either of these solutions, as I feel they are missing the core problem. More importantly, I feel like both of these approaches make hacking (an already exceptionally good skill) even better. Secmod adds a requirement to hack security stations to stop alarms, while alarming cameras allows you to destroy them while security is hacked. As a result, getting hacking is even more critically important than it is in Vanilla, as it's the only way to stop alarms (in secmod) and reliably destroy cameras (with RSD/Alarming Cameras). There are other ways to deal with cameras in alarming cameras, but hacking is by far the most accessible.
Personally, I feel like cameras are at their most fun when you're being stealthy and playing the avoidance game, rather than simply using various tools to delete them permanently. I noticed this for the first time when playing with the camera in Engineering between the cargo bays - having to creep around it (as I didn't have hack at that point) was very rewarding. I realized that as long as the game incentivises destroying cameras rather than avoiding them, I feel like the security gameplay will always be simplistic and uninteresting.
As a result, I took a different approach. My ldea was to reward players for being sneaky and getting around Xerxes, rather than simply blowing up his eyes.
The security system has been changed in the following ways:
- For each camera that is destroyed, the "automated security capability" of the deck goes down by some %age (this is mostly for flavour, and is a throwback to SS1).
- In response to the reduction in automated security, Xerxes responds by increasing the amount of enemies patrolling the area, in order to replace his automated scanning capabilities. In gameplay terms, this means you will see more enemies spawning the more cameras you destroy.
- The player is thus incentivised to avoid cameras, either by hacking security stations (which is now only a temporary solution rather than simply allowing you to delete them with impunity), or by using good old fashioned sneaking.
I don't entirely like this idea or it's implementation, I feel like there's probably still a better approach to this problem, but I thought I would release this to get feedback and start a discussion on the security systems in SS2.
Please see the first post for the download
One of the big problems in vanilla is that there's no real threat posed by cameras or the security system. It's as easy as shooting them. As a result, the security gameplay is extremely lackluster and boring - cameras are a minor nuisance, then you deal with them, and never have to worry about them again.
Various mods have attempted to resolve this. With Secmod you get an extra enemy coming to investigate when a camera is destroyed and with Alarming Cameras the cameras will alarm when shot if Security isn't hacked.
However, I don't particularly like either of these solutions, as I feel they are missing the core problem. More importantly, I feel like both of these approaches make hacking (an already exceptionally good skill) even better. Secmod adds a requirement to hack security stations to stop alarms, while alarming cameras allows you to destroy them while security is hacked. As a result, getting hacking is even more critically important than it is in Vanilla, as it's the only way to stop alarms (in secmod) and reliably destroy cameras (with RSD/Alarming Cameras). There are other ways to deal with cameras in alarming cameras, but hacking is by far the most accessible.
Personally, I feel like cameras are at their most fun when you're being stealthy and playing the avoidance game, rather than simply using various tools to delete them permanently. I noticed this for the first time when playing with the camera in Engineering between the cargo bays - having to creep around it (as I didn't have hack at that point) was very rewarding. I realized that as long as the game incentivises destroying cameras rather than avoiding them, I feel like the security gameplay will always be simplistic and uninteresting.
As a result, I took a different approach. My ldea was to reward players for being sneaky and getting around Xerxes, rather than simply blowing up his eyes.
The security system has been changed in the following ways:
- For each camera that is destroyed, the "automated security capability" of the deck goes down by some %age (this is mostly for flavour, and is a throwback to SS1).
- In response to the reduction in automated security, Xerxes responds by increasing the amount of enemies patrolling the area, in order to replace his automated scanning capabilities. In gameplay terms, this means you will see more enemies spawning the more cameras you destroy.
- The player is thus incentivised to avoid cameras, either by hacking security stations (which is now only a temporary solution rather than simply allowing you to delete them with impunity), or by using good old fashioned sneaking.
I don't entirely like this idea or it's implementation, I feel like there's probably still a better approach to this problem, but I thought I would release this to get feedback and start a discussion on the security systems in SS2.
Please see the first post for the download
Posted by: RoSoDude
« on: 15. April 2023, 03:54:53 »Agreed as to the softwares going into inventory -- I'm stealing that for SS2-RSD. Also contributes to strategy with skipping software levels so you can convert the redundant softwares to nanites with CYB.This is great, it's nice having software module in inventory for the first time; and it gives us more to fumble around with :3
looks like giant usb-stick, it even has description text... this should be part of scp for example imo (i know, no gameplay-altering mechanics in scp, but anyways..)
It feels absolutely like it was always meant to be this way & the original developers would have done if they had more time at their hands. I even consider it as bug fixing or feature update.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 18. March 2023, 16:02:58 »This is great, it's nice having software module in inventory for the first time; and it gives us more to fumble around with :3
looks like giant usb-stick, it even has description text... this should be part of scp for example imo (i know, no gameplay-altering mechanics in scp, but anyways..)
It feels absolutely like it was always meant to be this way & the original developers would have done if they had more time at their hands. I even consider it as bug fixing or feature update.
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looks like giant usb-stick, it even has description text... this should be part of scp for example imo (i know, no gameplay-altering mechanics in scp, but anyways..)
It feels absolutely like it was always meant to be this way & the original developers would have done if they had more time at their hands. I even consider it as bug fixing or feature update.
[494.jpg expired]
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 18. March 2023, 14:00:55 »This is genious idea, software always bothered me, it always seemed like redundant gameplay element to me - now it will all tie much more nicely together, brilliant idea.
Thanks
Sceptical about this at very first glimpse when just focusing about thinking how it would take away a beloved gameplay element & a bit of diversity (being able to chose ammo-types always seemed to me pretty unique & immersive), wheras in reality gameplay-wise this seems to turn out to be actually brilliant.
Standard weapons are really really extremely overpowerd. Now enemy-type specific weapons (emp, prolifirator, worm launcher, laser, etc.) will shine & stand out much more & finally fill out their niches/roles nicely.
i would say do the same for shotgun & also replicators as well, to be consequential.
While I agree that it's a pretty nice way to handle Standard being overpowered, I fundamentally disagree about replicators - being able to spend nanites (sometimes up to 90 nanites per clip!) is important for allowing Standard to maintain it's utility and versatility. Being able to use the same weapon against all different types of enemies is absolutely great, and it's definitely Standard's big stand-out feature, I really don't want to remove it. I feel like the cost of special ammo already does a good job to offset it's utility and essentially make you pay for the privilege of having the most versatile weapon class.
Or better: just enable the red anti-personnel ammo for shotguns (but slightly nerf it down) to still emulate enough man-stopping power of shotguns irl (no more standard shotgun ammo). So you have still both options and diversity (standard & anti-personnel) in early game.
Shotgun anti-pers ammo is unchanged. It should still appear as it did before. The main reason I left it unchanged is because the Shotgun already has limited versatility (only having 2 ammo types instead of 3), and does comparatively very low damage with a low fire rate, which IMO makes it the worst Standard weapon (even worse than the pistol). While it's a decent workhorse weapon, it's utility comes from it's reliability and consistent damage dealing rather than it's versatility, so I have left it unchanged since I don't think it's anywhere near as problematic as the rest of Standard.
Interestingly, I was also originally extremely skeptical of this idea. While implementing it, I was very sure it would be way too much and would absolutely nerf Standard weapons into the ground, and reduce/remove the strategy around it. To my (very pleasant) surprise, it turned out to be really amazing in terms of both depth and balance, and I am quite proud of how it ended up.
I will likely still tweak it a bit. I feel like maybe I should replace 90% of special ammo, rather than all of it, so there's still some available early but in very rare quantities. But I am definitely happy with the current result already.
Alas those mods (cyb & software) don't seem to work for me despite i've deactivated all the other ones + started new game.
Judging by your screenshot, you haven't installed the mod properly. The 7zip archive only contains gamesys.dml. Did you open the 7z file and extract it to a folder?
To install it, go into your DMM folder inside your System Shock 2 folder, create a new folder called "CYB for implants" (or any other name really, the name doesn't matter as long as it's a folder), and copy gamesys.dml into there. It should show up in the mod manager as "DML" rather than "Unrecognised" and shouldn't have the yellow triangle. "Software Cyb" also has the same problem.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 17. March 2023, 20:28:28 »Software Requires CYB
This is genious idea, software always bothered me, it always seemed like redundant gameplay element to me - now it will all tie much more nicely together, brilliant idea.
Standard Ammo As Standard
Sceptical about this at very first glimpse when just focusing about thinking how it would take away a beloved gameplay element & a bit of diversity (being able to chose ammo-types always seemed to me pretty unique & immersive), wheras in reality gameplay-wise this seems to turn out to be actually brilliant.
Standard weapons are really really extremely overpowerd. Now enemy-type specific weapons (emp, prolifirator, worm launcher, laser, etc.) will shine & stand out much more & finally fill out their niches/roles nicely.
i would say do the same for shotgun & also replicators as well, to be consequential. Or better: just enable the red anti-personnel ammo for shotguns (but slightly nerf it down) to still emulate enough man-stopping power of shotguns irl (no more standard shotgun ammo).
Alas those mods (cyb & software) don't seem to work for me despite i've deactivated all the other ones + started new game.
'Offtopic: there is security alert for this site for a few days already
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Posted by: sarge945
« on: 15. March 2023, 15:33:59 »°DML
Sarge's Gameplay Experiments
Recently, while playing around in the editor and working on the Randomiser, I have also thought of some interesting gameplay twists (or mutators, of sorts), as a way to experiment with game design and see how various changes could positively or negatively affect the game.
After trying out some things, I thought a few of them were interesting concepts, so I decided to release them here for commentary, to see if anyone finds them interesting. I don't consider any of these complete or substantive enough to warrant being a full mod. These are here to pique interest and gather feedback for potentially larger-scale modifications.
I don't really recommend these for a serious playthrough, especially not all at once. I believe there is some potential in these ideas, however I have not really adequately done the work necessary to ensure they don't break balance or upset the game too much. If you want an interesting twist on SS2, maybe give these a try, but for super-serious playthroughs, I don't think you'll have a good time.
The Experiments are as follows:
Standard Ammo As Standard
This replaces ALL special bullet types found in the game world with standard bullets. So AP rounds become regular rounds, etc. You can still buy special ammo at replicators. This was done because I feel that Standard weapons are far too ubiquitous and generally useful overall, compared to the other weapon classes. They have the largest overall advantage in that they can attack every enemy type and have no weaknesses thanks to special ammo, but I felt that it's too readily available in-game to really give Standard any real downsides. Now, you can still get the same utility from Standard weapons, but it will cost you. The other weapon classes get their utility for free - Energy vs bots, Annelid vs organics etc - but don't have the same level of utility.
This comes in two versions. The normal version replaces all special ammo with standard ammo. The 50% variant replaces 50% of the special ammo with standard ammo. Replicators are unaffected in both versions.
Currently, Shotgun ammo is NOT affected, only bullets. Shotgun ammo is quite well balanced already in my opinion.
I am actually quite happy with this and I feel it's a rather good nerf to standard weapons, however I feel this approach is a little heavy-handed. I am very interested in feedback.
Potential Ideas/Improvements:
- Also affect Shotgun ammo
- Replace bullets by a dice roll, rather than simply replacing all of them.
Software Requires CYB
In the vanilla game, Software essentially exists to provide some level of progression to all players - as they progress in the game, their ability to perform tech skills increases as they find software. However, the implementation is very poor. Hacking tends to get harder as the game progresses, so the progression from the sofware cancels out. All of the software can be found pretty easily by all players, and while it is available in some replicators, there's no point in buying it since it's expensive and an equivalent version will usually turn up pretty quickly for free.
At the same time, CYB is a particularly boring statistic. While it's generally useful, there's very little tradeoff or intelligence around picking it. It's the skill you take when Hacking/Repairing/Modify gets too hard/tedious, there's no other real strategy or decision making around it. It's also quite opaque - players will usually not see an immediate, tangible benefit to choosing CYB compared to, say, Strength, since they will immediately see their inventory expand and instantly do more damage. A comparable percentage bonus in a minigame doesn't really seem like much in comparison.
As a way to mitigate this, I decided to make CYB more useful by tying Software usage to it. All V1 software now requires 2 CYB, all V2 requires 4 CYB and V3 requires 6 CYB.
I am not sure how I feel about this solution overall. It sort of seems like CYB is now "double dipping" - for example, you will get the hacking bonus from CYB directly, plus the hacking bonus from being able to actually install the hacking software.
Implants Require CYB
I am MUCH more happy with this one than the previous one. I very much like making CYB more useful by making it a more active choice - your ability to use implants depends heavily on your Cyber investment, which means taking it over other stats (especially early game!) is super important. Want to use that BrawnBoost? Might have to take a point of CYB over Agi.
With this mod, BrawnBoost requires 2 CYB, SwiftBoost requires 3, EndurBoost requires 3, LabAssistant requires 4, ExperTech requires 4, PsiBooster requires 4. In case someone decides to add RunFast into the game, it also requires 3.
I am quite happy with how this minimod has turned out. I like that CYB is a far more active skill now, and actual important build decisions can now rely heavily on CYB investment, whereas previously it was a very underwhelming skill that usually didn't affect builds all that much.
Potential Ideas/Improvements:
- Add an implant that requires only 2 CYB but temporarily raises CYB by 2 while equipped. This would make the Cybernetically Enhanced upgrade more interesting, essentially allowing you to use implants you normally couldn't use without investing into CYB, at the cost of your second implant slot.
Security Overhaul
I don't like the way you can simply destroy cameras in order to bypass the threat they pose, so I made this module to encourage players to avoid them instead. For each camera you destroy, more enemies will patrol the area and hunt you down - if you wish to keep Xerxes in the dark, you will need to remain sneaky and avoid detection as much as possible.
Security Overhaul - Alternate Version
This is a different take on security mechanics. Cameras are now armoured and damage resistant. Wrench swings, standard bullets, even frag grenades won't be able to damage them. In order to take down cameras, you will need to use armor piercing rounds, EMP, laser pistol overcharge, or heavy weapons. This may be overtuned, but the numbers are easy enough to tweak. This is designed to emphasise that permanently removing cameras will impose a resource cost, and reinforces hacking as a cheap but temporary solution to bypassing cameras that won't simply let you destroy them with impunity.
I am VERY interested in hearing people's thoughts on these once they have had a chance to play them. I feel there is a lot of potential in some of these ideas, and would very much like to develop them further.
You can discuss this mod, provide feedback, and talk about my other mods here
Sarge's Gameplay Experiments
Recently, while playing around in the editor and working on the Randomiser, I have also thought of some interesting gameplay twists (or mutators, of sorts), as a way to experiment with game design and see how various changes could positively or negatively affect the game.
After trying out some things, I thought a few of them were interesting concepts, so I decided to release them here for commentary, to see if anyone finds them interesting. I don't consider any of these complete or substantive enough to warrant being a full mod. These are here to pique interest and gather feedback for potentially larger-scale modifications.
I don't really recommend these for a serious playthrough, especially not all at once. I believe there is some potential in these ideas, however I have not really adequately done the work necessary to ensure they don't break balance or upset the game too much. If you want an interesting twist on SS2, maybe give these a try, but for super-serious playthroughs, I don't think you'll have a good time.
The Experiments are as follows:
Standard Ammo As Standard
This replaces ALL special bullet types found in the game world with standard bullets. So AP rounds become regular rounds, etc. You can still buy special ammo at replicators. This was done because I feel that Standard weapons are far too ubiquitous and generally useful overall, compared to the other weapon classes. They have the largest overall advantage in that they can attack every enemy type and have no weaknesses thanks to special ammo, but I felt that it's too readily available in-game to really give Standard any real downsides. Now, you can still get the same utility from Standard weapons, but it will cost you. The other weapon classes get their utility for free - Energy vs bots, Annelid vs organics etc - but don't have the same level of utility.
This comes in two versions. The normal version replaces all special ammo with standard ammo. The 50% variant replaces 50% of the special ammo with standard ammo. Replicators are unaffected in both versions.
Currently, Shotgun ammo is NOT affected, only bullets. Shotgun ammo is quite well balanced already in my opinion.
I am actually quite happy with this and I feel it's a rather good nerf to standard weapons, however I feel this approach is a little heavy-handed. I am very interested in feedback.
Potential Ideas/Improvements:
- Also affect Shotgun ammo
- Replace bullets by a dice roll, rather than simply replacing all of them.
Software Requires CYB
In the vanilla game, Software essentially exists to provide some level of progression to all players - as they progress in the game, their ability to perform tech skills increases as they find software. However, the implementation is very poor. Hacking tends to get harder as the game progresses, so the progression from the sofware cancels out. All of the software can be found pretty easily by all players, and while it is available in some replicators, there's no point in buying it since it's expensive and an equivalent version will usually turn up pretty quickly for free.
At the same time, CYB is a particularly boring statistic. While it's generally useful, there's very little tradeoff or intelligence around picking it. It's the skill you take when Hacking/Repairing/Modify gets too hard/tedious, there's no other real strategy or decision making around it. It's also quite opaque - players will usually not see an immediate, tangible benefit to choosing CYB compared to, say, Strength, since they will immediately see their inventory expand and instantly do more damage. A comparable percentage bonus in a minigame doesn't really seem like much in comparison.
As a way to mitigate this, I decided to make CYB more useful by tying Software usage to it. All V1 software now requires 2 CYB, all V2 requires 4 CYB and V3 requires 6 CYB.
I am not sure how I feel about this solution overall. It sort of seems like CYB is now "double dipping" - for example, you will get the hacking bonus from CYB directly, plus the hacking bonus from being able to actually install the hacking software.
Implants Require CYB
I am MUCH more happy with this one than the previous one. I very much like making CYB more useful by making it a more active choice - your ability to use implants depends heavily on your Cyber investment, which means taking it over other stats (especially early game!) is super important. Want to use that BrawnBoost? Might have to take a point of CYB over Agi.
With this mod, BrawnBoost requires 2 CYB, SwiftBoost requires 3, EndurBoost requires 3, LabAssistant requires 4, ExperTech requires 4, PsiBooster requires 4. In case someone decides to add RunFast into the game, it also requires 3.
I am quite happy with how this minimod has turned out. I like that CYB is a far more active skill now, and actual important build decisions can now rely heavily on CYB investment, whereas previously it was a very underwhelming skill that usually didn't affect builds all that much.
Potential Ideas/Improvements:
- Add an implant that requires only 2 CYB but temporarily raises CYB by 2 while equipped. This would make the Cybernetically Enhanced upgrade more interesting, essentially allowing you to use implants you normally couldn't use without investing into CYB, at the cost of your second implant slot.
Security Overhaul
I don't like the way you can simply destroy cameras in order to bypass the threat they pose, so I made this module to encourage players to avoid them instead. For each camera you destroy, more enemies will patrol the area and hunt you down - if you wish to keep Xerxes in the dark, you will need to remain sneaky and avoid detection as much as possible.
Security Overhaul - Alternate Version
This is a different take on security mechanics. Cameras are now armoured and damage resistant. Wrench swings, standard bullets, even frag grenades won't be able to damage them. In order to take down cameras, you will need to use armor piercing rounds, EMP, laser pistol overcharge, or heavy weapons. This may be overtuned, but the numbers are easy enough to tweak. This is designed to emphasise that permanently removing cameras will impose a resource cost, and reinforces hacking as a cheap but temporary solution to bypassing cameras that won't simply let you destroy them with impunity.
I am VERY interested in hearing people's thoughts on these once they have had a chance to play them. I feel there is a lot of potential in some of these ideas, and would very much like to develop them further.
You can discuss this mod, provide feedback, and talk about my other mods here
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