Posted by: sarge945
« on: Today at 07:38:22 »You can wait if you want. I just feel like your feedback would be invaluable.
Posted by: Join2
« on: Yesterday at 19:05:09 »When it is released perhaps. Kinda all Deus Ex'ed out though at this point.
Also don't want to step on your guy's toes, as I am unashamedly elitist.
Also don't want to step on your guy's toes, as I am unashamedly elitist.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: Yesterday at 10:19:56 »I will be, next playthrough.
While you're at it, why not join the RSD discord and play the new GMDX as well.
Posted by: Join2
« on: Yesterday at 07:05:36 »The assault rifle is surely the best weapon in the game but you certainly underestimate the EMP rifle:
-Infinite ammo (providing you can maintain it and there is a charging station nearby).
-Not just bots, but melts Cyborg Assassins, Midwifes, Security systems, and Shodan herself.
-Rapid fire and radial damage means you can destroy all these targets around corners without ever exposing yourself.
"RSD fixes most of these issues, btw, which is why you should use it. It's essentially the GMDX of SS2."
I will be, next playthrough.
I'm aware of many balance issues in the game. Though some things you highlight I just dont agree with. Yeah, investing in energy and other weapon skills early is useless, but I don't consider that a strictly bad thing. Standard is what everyone starts with and you branch out from there. Could it be better if more styles were available from the get-go? Absolutely, but it's not outright bad here as it stands, aside from the potential to trick unsuspecting players investing elsewhere early, yet that isn't a huge deal. You're soon enough given plenty cybermodules to course-correct.
Btw Deus Ex is the same in this regard (e.g zero point upgrading heavy weapons skill right away, and to a lesser extent rifles skill) and GMDX does not change the fact, aside from slightly better early shotgun and assault gun ammo availability. It's problematic, sure, but not a huge deal. And in SS2's case it certainly helped to nail the merging of extensive RPG choice alongside somewhat strict survival horror resource scarcity.
Other person said:
"Regarding the arguments on vanilla gameplay, I don't really understand why one would go through so much effort to change how the game mechanics fundamentally function. Do you not like the game for what it is?"
Major pet peeve for me is those 100% content with the game they've played before, despite its imperfections, despite grand potential to be significantly better. Yes I was satisfied with vanilla, and consider the game a masterpiece of sorts, but it had its flaws and game design has grand potential, especially these types of games. I am only defending it from claims that its gameplay wasn't very good. Irksome claim for a game of this caliber but far less detestable than those with no desire or vision for progress. every serious gamer should be playing the fuck out of great games with mods. In certain cases, they elevate them to new heights of game design excellence. If it weren't for the many great mods out there I'd have likely abandoned gaming in sheer frustration of the mediocrity of new games over the past 20+ years and the people that consume them.
-Infinite ammo (providing you can maintain it and there is a charging station nearby).
-Not just bots, but melts Cyborg Assassins, Midwifes, Security systems, and Shodan herself.
-Rapid fire and radial damage means you can destroy all these targets around corners without ever exposing yourself.
"RSD fixes most of these issues, btw, which is why you should use it. It's essentially the GMDX of SS2."
I will be, next playthrough.
I'm aware of many balance issues in the game. Though some things you highlight I just dont agree with. Yeah, investing in energy and other weapon skills early is useless, but I don't consider that a strictly bad thing. Standard is what everyone starts with and you branch out from there. Could it be better if more styles were available from the get-go? Absolutely, but it's not outright bad here as it stands, aside from the potential to trick unsuspecting players investing elsewhere early, yet that isn't a huge deal. You're soon enough given plenty cybermodules to course-correct.
Btw Deus Ex is the same in this regard (e.g zero point upgrading heavy weapons skill right away, and to a lesser extent rifles skill) and GMDX does not change the fact, aside from slightly better early shotgun and assault gun ammo availability. It's problematic, sure, but not a huge deal. And in SS2's case it certainly helped to nail the merging of extensive RPG choice alongside somewhat strict survival horror resource scarcity.
Other person said:
"Regarding the arguments on vanilla gameplay, I don't really understand why one would go through so much effort to change how the game mechanics fundamentally function. Do you not like the game for what it is?"
Major pet peeve for me is those 100% content with the game they've played before, despite its imperfections, despite grand potential to be significantly better. Yes I was satisfied with vanilla, and consider the game a masterpiece of sorts, but it had its flaws and game design has grand potential, especially these types of games. I am only defending it from claims that its gameplay wasn't very good. Irksome claim for a game of this caliber but far less detestable than those with no desire or vision for progress. every serious gamer should be playing the fuck out of great games with mods. In certain cases, they elevate them to new heights of game design excellence. If it weren't for the many great mods out there I'd have likely abandoned gaming in sheer frustration of the mediocrity of new games over the past 20+ years and the people that consume them.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: Yesterday at 01:36:16 »It has to be at least a little to justify all those Cybermodules
All of the other 6-skill weapons cost the same amount of cybermodules as the Assault Rifle, and yet are SIGNIFICANTLY less good. The EMP rifle is only useful against bots, the Fusion cannon is more likely to blow your face off than theirs, and the Annelid Launcher is only available right before the body of the many (Exotic actually gets specifically shafted twice, because the Viral Proliferator is also only available in rec, which is a significant amount through the game. Exotic builds really aren't viable at all in Vanilla for this reason).
You find the first usable non-broken Assault rifle in Hydro. That's well before the halfway point. Meanwhile the first Fusion cannon is in Command(!) and the first EMP rifle is in either Ops or Recreation, I can't remember.
It's also the only weapon class where you can reliably ditch the previous weapon (in this case, the pistol) because it's literally a better version of the same thing, so it even saves you inventory space.
Even better, because the Wrench scales with Standard, doing a Standard playthrough will be a breeze at all stages of the game - good wrench damage early, with pistol for tougher fights while ammo is somewhat scarce, then an easy transition into the Shotgun at the end of MedSci and Assault Rifle in Hydro. Marines and Navy also both predominantly benefit Standard because they each give you +1 Standard, setting you up to go Standard, whereas transitioning to another weapon type essentially wastes those points. The placement of the weapons in the maps means that doing an Energy playthrough will leave you naked and exposed with only the Wrench and Pistol until the end of Engineering, and without Repair, going Heavy will leave you naked and exposed with only the Wrench and Pistol until Hydro. If you pick OSA instead of Navy, you will be stuck with only the wrench unless you manually invest in Standard, which will be wasted when you transition to your other weapon class. Your other option is to go as a Marine to get the Energy Pistol or Grenade Launcher at the start of the game, but that sacrifices development in other areas, namely the critically important technical skills, which matters on Impossible.
If you want to go Exotic as your primary weapon skill you're just fucked. Not only are you going to be required to put a bunch of points into Research as well just to use them, you're going to need to wait until a significant portion of the game is complete before you can use any of them, relegating them permanently to "secondary" choices. In most cases, there's no real need for a secondary weapon class (except maybe with Energy) because investing in just 1 weapon class is usually enough to get by, which is why nobody ever uses Exotic for any reason - it's a waste of points.
After jumping through so many hoops and waiting so long to get the alternative weapon types online, what you get is a series of weapons that never rise to the height of the assault rifle, leaving you at a permanent disadvantage compared to if you just went Standard, which would have been easier anyway, wasted less CMs, and been a much more pleasant experience from the start of the game onwards.
The issues with SS2's weapon balance (and it's balance in general) aren't simply a matter of comparing weapons or skills directly against each other. The game is so fundamentally broken on a core level that virtually every aspect of the design comes into play - from the career selections, to weapon placement in the maps, to Research, to CM costs - everything combines to make the balance a total clusterfuck of badness. And it's not just weapon skills that are effected.
RSD fixes most of these issues, btw, which is why you should use it. It's essentially the GMDX of SS2.
Other OP aspects of the game:
- With 1 level in hacking you can disable every security system in the game, which also disables turrets. Cameras don't matter much since they are already trivial to bypass, as I have complained about before, but disabling turrets is huge.
- Pressing the S button instantly wins all melee fights
- Putting just a few points in psi and getting Adrenaline Overproduction basically renders the entire game trivial, you can wrench your way through everything easily at that point.
- More things I haven't thought of yet.
The balance of SS2 is atrocious.
oh yes, we do get this complaint every five years or so, never really understood why a few people think this way but some do. so yes, if multiple mods modify the same thing, whatever has the position closest to the top of the list will end up shown in the game.
The reason people think it works the other way is because the Bethesda games work from top to bottom in terms of mod order, and I would argue that Bethesda games are by far the most popular in terms of modding. Not many people play obscure old titles like SS2, and much less of them mod it to a significant degree to where load order will matter. Everyone and their mum has played Skyrim and a significant portion of those people will have modded it.
I would seriously recommend adding a note to both the DMM and ss2bmm (ss2tool) pages to explain to downloaders that mods are ordered from bottom to top, because it will significantly reduce confusion.
Regarding the arguments on vanilla gameplay, I don't really understand why one would go through so much effort to change how the game mechanics fundamentally function. Do you not like the game for what it is?
I'm wanting to fix the gameplay imbalances precisely because I like the game.
When you've finished it multiple times, the cracks really start to show, and it can really take away a lot of the fun when you know that certain builds are extremely overpowered and others are borderline useless.
Most people don't really care about the gameplay or balance of SS2, and that's understandable. It's a game that can carry itself almost entirely on it's vibes, it's story, and it's atmosphere. But wouldn't it be nice to have an excellent game like SS2 that also had good gameplay as well? Especially when so many people have completed it so many times that the game is trivially easy (even on Impossible) if you play it the "right" way by picking the most overpowered builds/strategies every time?
Why wouldn't you want to fix these issues? It can only result in a better game! I know the first time I played SS2-RSD it felt fresh again, because the same old mindless choices weren't so obvious anymore. Which is great! Even now after multiple SS2-RSD playthroughs, I'm exploring new builds and strategies that just weren't viable at all in vanilla SS2, which is awesome as it has added a significant amount of depth to the game, just by fixing up some of it's most glaring issues.
If more players spent more time embracing change and trying out balance fixes, and less time decrying SS2 as a perfect game (it's not) or considering all criticism to be invalid whining by Call of Duty players, they would have a much better time because the game would be a hell of a lot more enjoyable on replays. But alas, people are set in their ways. I don't really mind though, they are only ruining their own fun.
Also essentially all first person shooters well into the 2010's (with few exceptions) could basically be "cheesed" by two basic tactics: running backwards down a hallway shooting while an overly aggressive enemy attempts to hit you with a melee attack or by circle straffing while shooting an enemy with a ranged attack. This was countered in the early days by the use of hit scan which I've seen more complaints about being "cheap' than anything else. Later games (once the computational capabilities of hardware improved) were programmed with better AI which lead to enemies falling back or flanking but this could more often than not be addressed by either waiting the enemy out or side step shooting around a corner. Human players are resourceful and will always find ways to exploit enemy AI tendencies one way or another.
Yes, well, most first person shooters still find plenty of ways to be exceptionally difficult, like Doom (2016) which is absolutely ballbusting on Nightmare despite not having any hitscanners. It's not like SS2 where you can literally trivialise large portions of the game's difficulty by pressing S.
Most first person shooters have a lot of problems. That doesn't mean we should overlook them here. Especially when SS2 has such a high emphasis on resource management, and health is no exception. Being able to cheese around enemies in a standard FPS is less important if you were going to find health kits at the end of the fight to put you back up to 100 anyway. In SS2, every med hypo matters, and that's somewhat undermined when you can laugh at a number of enemies while they fruitlessly try to hit you. It especially trivialises the early game, where resources matter the most.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 16. January 2025, 21:30:07 »infinitely arguing about things that most people won't even know exist is pretty much our job description.
nope, the menu stays unchanged, we like our 4:3 bars. now go play the game.
nope, the menu stays unchanged, we like our 4:3 bars. now go play the game.
oh yes, we do get this complaint every five years or so, never really understood why a few people think this way but some do. so yes, if multiple mods modify the same thing, whatever has the position closest to the top of the list will end up shown in the game.Now I know that in dark mod manager this is load PRIORITY and not load ORDER
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 16. January 2025, 21:18:57 »ok, nope, that "Too many mods active or paused" thing is random, was able to replicate and it has nothing to do with foldername lengths or anything, it just comes and goes, or so it would seem.
also, migraine cyberspace is a level texture mod, so yeah, if you have multiple loaded (Four Hundred), then you will have to give it a higher priority, I thought that was clear.
It is now. Kind of counter intuitive based on how most other games from this era and prior with mod tools work. Usually the mod last on the list is the last to be loaded which will overwrite anything prior within the same asset space. Now I know that in dark mod manager this is load PRIORITY and not load ORDER as all the guides I have run across state or atleast fail to mention that it's in reverse order. Thanks for informing me.
Regarding the arguments on vanilla gameplay, I don't really understand why one would go through so much effort to change how the game mechanics fundamentally function. Do you not like the game for what it is? Also essentially all first person shooters well into the 2010's (with few exceptions) could basically be "cheesed" by two basic tactics: running backwards down a hallway shooting while an overly aggressive enemy attempts to hit you with a melee attack or by circle straffing while shooting an enemy with a ranged attack. This was countered in the early days by the use of hit scan which I've seen more complaints about being "cheap' than anything else. Later games (once the computational capabilities of hardware improved) were programmed with better AI which lead to enemies falling back or flanking but this could more often than not be addressed by either waiting the enemy out or side step shooting around a corner. Human players are resourceful and will always find ways to exploit enemy AI tendencies one way or another.
One last question before I start my playthrough hopefully tonight, was there ever a mod to implement a widescreen menu in System Shock 2?
I find it hard to believe that a game as popular as System Shock 2 with a still active modding community with talent in both programming and art would still be subjecting players to black bars and 4:3 assets on the opening screen of the game. Or are we going to have to wait for nightdive to release the "enhanced edition" and hope they don't fuck it up by abandoning it in an unfinished mess as is status quo?
Posted by: Join2
« on: 16. January 2025, 20:23:52 »Standard Weapons?
The Assault Rifle is hands-down the best weapon in Vanilla. It's still really good even after being nerfed by ss2tool and SCP, is available the earliest of all the 6-skill weapons, and has the most ammo readily available and the most enemy types it can damage.
I remember running through BotM two-shotting Rumblers with anti-personnel rounds. It's definitely overpowered
It has to be at least a little to justify all those Cybermodules, because it uses the same ammo as the pistol. Personally I invest standard to shotgun then invest the modules elsewhere, cause I already have a competent gun that fires standard/personnel/AP rounds. But still, it could have instead had its own unique ammo.
So yeah, Assault Rifle is definitely problematic in terms of OPness but not incredibly so + only available halfway through the game or more. It's also one of the few OP examples that could be presented.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 16. January 2025, 10:19:18 »ok, nope, that "Too many mods active or paused" thing is random, was able to replicate and it has nothing to do with foldername lengths or anything, it just comes and goes, or so it would seem.
also, migraine cyberspace is a level texture mod, so yeah, if you have multiple loaded (Four Hundred), then you will have to give it a higher priority, I thought that was clear.
also, migraine cyberspace is a level texture mod, so yeah, if you have multiple loaded (Four Hundred), then you will have to give it a higher priority, I thought that was clear.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 16. January 2025, 09:58:16 »The balance issues suck in SS2 but the best part about that is nothing is notably overpowered.
Standard Weapons?
The Assault Rifle is hands-down the best weapon in Vanilla. It's still really good even after being nerfed by ss2tool and SCP, is available the earliest of all the 6-skill weapons, and has the most ammo readily available and the most enemy types it can damage.
I remember running through BotM two-shotting Rumblers with anti-personnel rounds. It's definitely overpowered
Posted by: Join2
« on: 16. January 2025, 08:50:37 »SS2 is a game where:
- Every single guide recommends a handful of skills, because the rest are borderline useless.
- Of the skills that are useful, most of their utility is front-loaded (Research, Modify, Hack), and higher level investment is always never worth it. In the case of Modify, the standard tactic is to get Modify to the level needed to get to weapon mod 1, then use a FE device to get to level 2, rendering high level Modify investment almost completely worthless. 1 point of Research (which is literally required) is enough to get a 10% damage bonus against every enemy, which is super powerful compared to the other benefits given by the Research skill.
- Every melee enemy can be instantly rendered harmless by backpedalling (including rumblers!!!!). You may have assault rifles, fusion cannons, and explosive grenades, but the S key remains your most effective weapon.
- The Security system mechanics are laughable, cameras are extremely easy to bypass, it's typical for even an inexperienced player to go through the whole game without ever setting off a single alarm. I have seen multiple lets-plays by fresh, new players who set off the alarm once in MedSci before they understand the mechanics, and then never ever set it off again because it's so easy and so quick to destroy cameras. The security mechanics might as well not exist. Even Bioshock did better here, because as terrible as the pipe-mania hacking minigame is, at least you couldn't just destroy all of the cameras with one easy, simple pistol shot.
- Psionics is a complete mess. Psi Overloading only applies to a handful of skills, a number of psi skills are almost completely useless (alarms time out faster), others have weird/wacky undocumented interactions (pyro field making you immune to incendiary damage), some are far too strong to actually be useful and are just a waste of psi points (advanced healing), and some really should be useful but are hamstrung by bad map design or countered by other mechanics (why use psi pull when you can shoot down most objects?).
- Some OS Upgrades are VERY good. Others are laughably bad. SCP already addresses this issue, so I know you agree with me on this one.
- Mechanics are not particularly well explained and constantly trip up new players (Repair vs Maintenance, for instance)
- Because of the above issues, and many others, Impossible difficulty isn't particularly difficult, and most veteran players already play on Impossible and still find the game not particularly difficult because it's so exploitable. Hybrids can boop you in 1 hit? Bro just backpedal. Everything costs lots of CMs? Just don't buy the crap skills. By the time you get up to Command, the difficulty essentially plateaus and the rest of the game is piss easy, but even before that point the game is pretty easy after the cargo bays, which is the hardest part of the entire game because it's a gauntlet that you will likely face before your overpowered min-max build is really online.
SS2 is a very good game in terms of it's atmosphere and what it tried to do at the time. Making an FPS-RPG hybrid with that level of depth is downright impressive. But the implementation absolutely sucked. SCP fixes some of these issues, but mods like Repairman and RSD are needed to fix most of the rest. At that point, SS2 becomes far less cheesable and is much, much better than the out of box experience, ESPECIALLY for veteran players who are probably so familiar with how exploitable the game is at this point that they likely do entire playthroughs without needing to have a single independent thought, because the game is so completely rote because it's so utterly broken in it's fundamental design. Unfortunately, by deluding themselves into thinking the gameplay is actually excellent and all criticism is just mindless whining from clueless call of duty players, a lot of veteran players are missing out on an actually good modded SS2 experience that makes them think and strategise and use their brain the way the game likely did the first time they played. Their bias is literally preventing them from having a more fun experience.
If you think this criticising the vanilla gameplay is "hall of shame" worthy, then I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. SCP has had to fix a lot of the vanilla design issues, but even then, it's only a drop in the bucket towards fixing everything. Other mods are required to really fix all of the problems and make the game fun/interesting again for people who have already "solved it".
All valid criticism (well, except maybe for the expectation that mechanics be well explained where it's arguably not neccessary), but mostly pertaining only to balance, and some of it only perceivable after multiple playthroughs or deeper digging. It doesn't make the gameplay not very good overall. SS2's gameplay is flawed like nearly any other game (especially RPGs) and yet epic, multi-layered, respects the player's intelligence, highly replayable, super engaging...it's great gameplay. Of course it can be better and mods are much appreciated there as always, but save the "not very good" for lesser games.
SS2 vanilla is pretty solid. Much like Deus Ex, which was even more flawed (thrice as!) yet still an absolutely incredible game, amazing gameplay despite the very core mountain of issues.
The balance issues suck in SS2 but the best part about that is nothing is notably overpowered. It sucks on the opposite end of the spectrum; the balances issues are largely in certain things being useless, so as a result the core engagement/experience is preserved. Deus Ex on the other hand let you run around with ridiculously overpowered regen health aug that healed 40hp every second, letting you tank any threat including drowning, as well as making many related upgrade choices completely redundant.
I know which approach I prefer.
Still, maybe you just have very high standards, and I can certainly respect that. But there aren't too many games as engaging as SS2 that's I've played. Lots, but not enough.
As for the topic in question, I can't answer. I only have played the original release with varying mods.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 16. January 2025, 04:21:34 »I find the best way to deal with fly-by insults is to carefully explain in excruciating detail why the other person is a fucking idiot for saying what they said.
Hence the wall of text above.
That usually gets rid of them for a while.
Hence the wall of text above.
That usually gets rid of them for a while.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 16. January 2025, 01:17:06 »I guess this is something to do with the max length of the mod paths, which ss2bmm usually warns about, but maybe not DMM.
Unfortunately not in this case. The behavior is exactly the same as before and "migraine cyberspace" simply will not load behind "four hundred" still.
This would be a perfect opportunity for zylonbane who created the mod to chime in with something actually constructive but I guess that would require a bit more effort than a single sentence fly by insult...
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 15. January 2025, 15:27:18 »I guess this is something to do with the max length of the mod paths, which ss2bmm usually warns about, but maybe not DMM.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 15. January 2025, 14:03:26 »try the dmm.exe from here (which one are you using right now btw?) and see what happens.
//ok, random idea, try to shorten the SS2_Vaxquis_VintageSongRemake and SS2_DeNoised_CutscenesV1 foldernames (SS2_Vaxquis and SS2_DeNoised for example).
I just tried this again quickly before leaving for work. The mod manager that I was using was already the same version as that one (1.1.1) but I used the version you linked to anyway. I shortened all zip archive names, deleted every single mod from the mod manager interface, exited saving the progress. Opened the mod manager again, installed all mods from scratch, enabled them, sorted in the same load order and applied changes. I then checked the mod manager log and the previous error regarding "too many mods" was now gone. I started the game executable and a new game with the exact same results of "Migraine Cyberspace" not loading. I then went back into mod manager, moved it to the slot above "Four Hundred", applied changes, launched the game again and it's now working. For some reason this mod simply refuses to load if placed after "Four Hundred"...
Now I don't really have a problem leaving it in this load order but it leaves me wondering what other mods are not working correctly and as far as I can tell there's no way to determine this without playing the game through entirely...
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 15. January 2025, 10:41:19 »try the dmm.exe from here (which one are you using right now btw?) and see what happens.There is a warning stating "Too many mods active or paused" in the log.
//ok, random idea, try to shorten the SS2_Vaxquis_VintageSongRemake and SS2_DeNoised_CutscenesV1 foldernames (SS2_Vaxquis and SS2_DeNoised for example).
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 15. January 2025, 01:48:45 »I don't know. I just checked the thread for the mod and the complete version it mentions the inclusion of the psiamp and "not needing anything else". https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?wap2;topic=691
Aha, I see the problem now.
Tacticool includes the weapon models and textures, but the two-handed weapons don't have the second hand model, they are all essentially held one-handed. It also doesn't contains Rocketman's weapons, as voodoo pointed out.
The extra hands are added by a different mod.
By following the guide, you get the complete arsenal with all of the big weapons being held with both hands. The "complete experience", so to speak.
I can probably remove the reference to Eldron's Psi Amp, though, since it's now included in Tacticool (and maybe always has been??).
Now that's a hall of shame quote right there.
Are you serious? Are we even playing the same game?
SS2 is a game where:
- Every single guide recommends a handful of skills, because the rest are borderline useless.
- Of the skills that are useful, most of their utility is front-loaded (Research, Modify, Hack), and higher level investment is always never worth it. In the case of Modify, the standard tactic is to get Modify to the level needed to get to weapon mod 1, then use a FE device to get to level 2, rendering high level Modify investment almost completely worthless. 1 point of Research (which is literally required) is enough to get a 10% damage bonus against every enemy, which is super powerful compared to the other benefits given by the Research skill.
- Every melee enemy can be instantly rendered harmless by backpedalling (including rumblers!!!!). You may have assault rifles, fusion cannons, and explosive grenades, but the S key remains your most effective weapon.
- The Security system mechanics are laughable, cameras are extremely easy to bypass, it's typical for even an inexperienced player to go through the whole game without ever setting off a single alarm. I have seen multiple lets-plays by fresh, new players who set off the alarm once in MedSci before they understand the mechanics, and then never ever set it off again because it's so easy and so quick to destroy cameras. The security mechanics might as well not exist. Even Bioshock did better here, because as terrible as the pipe-mania hacking minigame is, at least you couldn't just destroy all of the cameras with one easy, simple pistol shot.
- Psionics is a complete mess. Psi Overloading only applies to a handful of skills, a number of psi skills are almost completely useless (alarms time out faster), others have weird/wacky undocumented interactions (pyro field making you immune to incendiary damage), some are far too strong to actually be useful and are just a waste of psi points (advanced healing), and some really should be useful but are hamstrung by bad map design or countered by other mechanics (why use psi pull when you can shoot down most objects?).
- Some OS Upgrades are VERY good. Others are laughably bad. SCP already addresses this issue, so I know you agree with me on this one.
- Mechanics are not particularly well explained and constantly trip up new players (Repair vs Maintenance, for instance)
- Because of the above issues, and many others, Impossible difficulty isn't particularly difficult, and most veteran players already play on Impossible and still find the game not particularly difficult because it's so exploitable. Hybrids can boop you in 1 hit? Bro just backpedal. Everything costs lots of CMs? Just don't buy the crap skills. By the time you get up to Command, the difficulty essentially plateaus and the rest of the game is piss easy, but even before that point the game is pretty easy after the cargo bays, which is the hardest part of the entire game because it's a gauntlet that you will likely face before your overpowered min-max build is really online.
SS2 is a very good game in terms of it's atmosphere and what it tried to do at the time. Making an FPS-RPG hybrid with that level of depth is downright impressive. But the implementation absolutely sucked. SCP fixes some of these issues, but mods like Repairman and RSD are needed to fix most of the rest. At that point, SS2 becomes far less cheesable and is much, much better than the out of box experience, ESPECIALLY for veteran players who are probably so familiar with how exploitable the game is at this point that they likely do entire playthroughs without needing to have a single independent thought, because the game is so completely rote because it's so utterly broken in it's fundamental design. Unfortunately, by deluding themselves into thinking the gameplay is actually excellent and all criticism is just mindless whining from clueless call of duty players, a lot of veteran players are missing out on an actually good modded SS2 experience that makes them think and strategise and use their brain the way the game likely did the first time they played. Their bias is literally preventing them from having a more fun experience.
If you think this criticising the vanilla gameplay is "hall of shame" worthy, then I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. SCP has had to fix a lot of the vanilla design issues, but even then, it's only a drop in the bucket towards fixing everything. Other mods are required to really fix all of the problems and make the game fun/interesting again for people who have already "solved it".
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 15. January 2025, 00:53:05 »I see no reason why any of those mods shouldn't load. anything unusual in the logs? started a completely new game?
Yes, brand new game every time I test. There is a warning stating "Too many mods active or paused"in the log.
I just moved the "migraine cyberspace" mod above "four hundred" and now it's working. Does this mean that all graphics mods have to be above "four hundred" in the load order to avoid being over written?
The load order in this thread shows otherwise...
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 15. January 2025, 00:24:52 »I see no reason why any of those mods shouldn't load. anything unusual in the logs? started a completely new game?
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 15. January 2025, 00:12:30 »Now that's a hall of shame quote right there.The vanilla gameplay isn't that good, though.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 14. January 2025, 23:52:09 »ah, didn't answer that last question - so yes, once you configure your mods, there is no need to launch the manager again unless you want to change your mod loadout, so whatever is enabled, stays enabled, and it doesn't matter whether you run the game via ss2.exe, steam shortcut or whatever.
Tacticool does not include Rocketman's weapons (too different), or JMP guns (would look weird if some suddenly had the extra hand models while other ones would not). using some unsanctioned modpack version?
GOG/steam build is one and the same, that's why it's called the GOG/steam build.
Thanks.
Maybe it was downloaded from moddb or nexus. I can't remember what I did over a month ago now before searching for a mod guide and finding this forum. I will stick with the official mods moving forward.
So what's wrong with my current load order that "migraine cyberspace" is not working?
https://i.postimg.cc/nhdKTxPn/DMM.jpg
Maybe some other mods aren't loading correctly as well but this is what I have confirmed within the first few minutes of the game.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 14. January 2025, 23:31:16 »Except in this case, both versions of the mod have always been available from the get go, are in the same thread, and are explicitly listed as incompatible. It would be impossible to download one of them, then come back later and download the other without seeing the warning.
Most likely, you downloaded both of them at the same time, because you didn't know which version would be good to use, and then later, when it came time to activate mods, turned both of them on thinking they were separate mods. I've definitely done that and it's an understandable mistake.
But yes, my advice to you is to just ignore ZB. Some people are just utterly incapable of human contact, and that's fine.
Yes, the mods were downloaded a while back around when I initially created this thread. Just like the 3 different water textures offered by vurt, I wanted to try all of them to see which I liked best so you're likely correct. I don't really remember. I did however just check the thread for the notifier mod and see no mention that the two are incompatible with eachother: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?wap2;topic=9512
I know mine were definitely wrong when I first wrote the guide, so I think the GOG version and Steam version might be slightly different? Or maybe an older version of ss2tool did some shenanigans or something. Ei56t6emher way, I will leave it there for posterity. The texture filtering settings are DEFINITELY not defaults, certain people here don't like those settings and have to enforce their will in their installers (even if the game looks WAY better without texture filtering).
Everything except texture filtering is already set as the default on the current version. I didn't check the texture filtering options though because that's listed as optional and disabling that feature I feel is quite niche especially with high resolution mods. Might be something to consider if I ever play the game stock again.
Wait, since when?
I don't know. I just checked the thread for the mod and the complete version it mentions the inclusion of the psiamp and "not needing anything else". https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?wap2;topic=691
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 14. January 2025, 12:32:14 »ah, didn't answer that last question - so yes, once you configure your mods, there is no need to launch the manager again unless you want to change your mod loadout, so whatever is enabled, stays enabled, and it doesn't matter whether you run the game via ss2.exe, steam shortcut or whatever.
Tacticool does not include Rocketman's weapons (too different), or JMP guns (would look weird if some suddenly had the extra hand models while other ones would not). using some unsanctioned modpack version?
GOG/steam build is one and the same, that's why it's called the GOG/steam build.
Tacticool does not include Rocketman's weapons (too different), or JMP guns (would look weird if some suddenly had the extra hand models while other ones would not). using some unsanctioned modpack version?
GOG/steam build is one and the same, that's why it's called the GOG/steam build.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 14. January 2025, 07:39:04 »I understood this after voodoo's reply a day earlier. Why he felt the need to post a redundant comment in a far more obnoxious way is a mystery... I also specifically asked if any mods were unnecessary for this exact reason... I know a lot of you guys have been around here a while so you installed mods initially that have since been updated or combined with others which is perfectly fine. The only problem is that it's confusing and hard to follow without a huge time investment for those of us coming back to the game and haven't modded it before.
Except in this case, both versions of the mod have always been available from the get go, are in the same thread, and are explicitly listed as incompatible. It would be impossible to download one of them, then come back later and download the other without seeing the warning.
Most likely, you downloaded both of them at the same time, because you didn't know which version would be good to use, and then later, when it came time to activate mods, turned both of them on thinking they were separate mods. I've definitely done that and it's an understandable mistake.
But yes, my advice to you is to just ignore ZB. Some people are just utterly incapable of human contact, and that's fine.
For what it's worth, I used your guide for the initial install. Seems to be quite comprehensive which I liked. Don't take this the wrong way but there are a few aspects which are outdated though. For example, the default settings updates are already the defaults on the current GOG version.
I know mine were definitely wrong when I first wrote the guide, so I think the GOG version and Steam version might be slightly different? Or maybe an older version of ss2tool did some shenanigans or something. Either way, I will leave it there for posterity. The texture filtering settings are DEFINITELY not defaults, certain people here don't like those settings and have to enforce their will in their installers (even if the game looks WAY better without texture filtering).
The "Tacticool Weapons" mod has a complete version that already includes the "rocketman" pack/"eldron psiamp"/"jmp hi-res weapons/hands" etc.
Wait, since when?
The reason I decided against your mods is because they alter the vanilla gameplay. For example the keypad "cheesing". It might be shitty for a player to sit and try infinite random combinations to crack a pin but it was initially allowed in the game. Nothing personal. I also don't find it a necessary install because I do quite thorough playthroughs so it's not something I would do anyway. I'm also just trying to get a baseline install that works to start. I can always add to it later but since load order is so important it's not the easiest process to get started with since no two lists are the same between players.
The vanilla gameplay isn't that good, though.
They could be better from what I can tell thus far but they aren't that bad. The way I see it is that if you're going to play with low poly models then it doesn't make much sense to play with high resolution textures as the game will be inconsistent as a whole. Like you said, it's personal preference. I doubt there are many playing a boxed copy of the game on cd-rom with era correct hardware so if it's a purist thing we're all by definition failing.
These days, I tend to play with almost entirely vanilla assets. If anything, I might use SHTUP and Four Hundred, but I will usually not use models anymore. I find that the vanilla textures are just TOO low res to look good in any context, and having the higher res ones makes the crispy pixellated walls look great, while keeping the original aesthetic.
I still recommend the models in my guide because it's likely what most people will want, but going vanilla or mostly vanilla visuals is definitely the right answer. You could say that turning off texture filtering disqualifies it from being vanilla, but blurring every texture was a collective mistake made by the entire industry from 1996 to 2024, and I want to undo it because it's always looked horrible.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 14. January 2025, 07:09:02 »Trust me, I take ABSOLUTELY JOY in defending ZylonBane, I would rather wedge a knife into my eyeballs, but in this case he's right.
Both of those mods are different versions of the same thing. They aren't compatible. Using one will automatically invalidate the other. So it is indeed stupid/crazy to use both of them.
It's the equivalent of using a mod to make all the enemies have 1 HP while also using a mod to make all the enemies have 100 HP. Using both together would be silly because they contradict each other.
I understood this after voodoo47's reply a day earlier. Why he felt the need to post a redundant comment in a far more obnoxious way is a mystery... I also specifically asked if any mods were unnecessary for this exact reason... I know a lot of you guys have been around here a while so you installed mods initially that have since been updated or combined with others which is perfectly fine. The only problem is that it's confusing and hard to follow without a huge time investment for those of us coming back to the game and haven't modded it before.
This guide has everything you need:
https://sarge945.xyz/guides/ss2-mod-guide
For what it's worth, I used your guide for the initial install. Seems to be quite comprehensive which I liked. Don't take this the wrong way but there are a few aspects which are outdated though. For example, the default settings updates are already the defaults on the current GOG version. The "Tacticool Weapons" mod has a complete version that already includes the "rocketman" pack/"eldron psiamp"/"jmp hi-res weapons/hands" etc. I really don't want to complain though since it was helpful as a whole. It might be beneficial to do a few quick updates though.
The reason I decided against your mods is because they alter the vanilla gameplay. For example the keypad "cheesing". It might be shitty for a player to sit and try infinite random combinations to crack a pin but it was initially allowed in the game. Nothing personal. I also don't find it a necessary install because I do quite thorough playthroughs so it's not something I would do anyway. I'm also just trying to get a baseline install that works to start. I can always add to it later but since load order is so important it's not the easiest process to get started with since no two lists are the same between players.
I get that it's up to personal preference, but I don't think most people realise just how bad the rebirth models are.
They could be better from what I can tell thus far but they aren't that bad. The way I see it is that if you're going to play with low poly models then it doesn't make much sense to play with high resolution textures as the game will be inconsistent as a whole. Like you said, it's personal preference. I doubt there are many playing a boxed copy of the game on cd-rom with era correct hardware so if it's a purist thing we're all by definition failing.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 14. January 2025, 05:51:31 »Do you have anything constructive to add or just the usual peanut gallery criticisms?
Trust me, I take ABSOLUTELY NO JOY in defending ZylonBane, I would rather wedge a knife into my eyeballs, but in this case he's right.
Both of those mods are different versions of the same thing. They aren't compatible. Using one will automatically invalidate the other. So it is indeed stupid/crazy to use both of them.
It's the equivalent of using a mod to make all the enemies have 1 HP while also using a mod to make all the enemies have 100 HP. Using both together would be silly because they contradict each other.
Thanks.
Where can I find a list of your mods?
I initially just used a search engine and found the newbie modding guide and went from there.
This guide has everything you need:
https://sarge945.xyz/guides/ss2-mod-guide/
I've played through the vanilla game in the past with the blurry (standard for the era) models. Obviously the updated ones in rebirth take some creative liberties but to be fair there isn't really clean lines (especially in the facial features) to start with so this is to be expected. If I don't like it for whatever reason, I will simply disable the mod so it's not a big deal.
I get that it's up to personal preference, but I don't think most people realise just how bad the rebirth models are.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 14. January 2025, 05:30:24 »Yes. Just run System Shock 2.
All the mod manager does is change some config files to make the game load the mods. Those config file changes are there whether you launch the mod manager or not.
Also, yet another person returning to the game and not using any of the mods I made... *my little dark age plays in the background*
Thanks.
Where can I find a list of your mods?
I initially just used a search engine and found the newbie modding guide and went from there.
He's also using Rebirth, but SCP RealSG. Doesn't Rebirth have it's own version?
Rebirth is also cringe, please don't use it.
I've played through the vanilla game in the past with the blurry (standard for the era) models. Obviously the updated ones in rebirth take some creative liberties but to be fair there isn't really clean lines (especially in the facial features) to start with so this is to be expected. If I don't like it for whatever reason, I will simply disable the mod so it's not a big deal.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 14. January 2025, 05:22:23 »I just noticed this guy has BOTH Quest Note Notifier and New Quest Notifier activated. WTF?
Do you have anything constructive to add or just the usual peanut gallery criticisms?
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 14. January 2025, 05:17:10 »SCP, Fixed Objects and SHTUP at the bottom always (SCP lowest, then Objects, then SHTUP). Quest notifiers pick one iirc, and that door retexture is deprecated I think, so take that off, probably - SHTUP has its own hires texture for that door which should be just fine. RealSG needs to be the Rebirth version if using Rebirth.
you need a newer version of the manager to have it recognize the two extra mods, but this actually isn't a problem, they will get loaded even if they are not recognized.
Thanks for the clarification.
This is my new load order:
Out of that list the two that I can see immediate effects of are the "Swap UI Bar Color" which is working. However, "Migraine Cyberspace" is not.
What is still wrong in my updated load order?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 14. January 2025, 04:41:29 »He's also using Rebirth, but SCP RealSG. Doesn't Rebirth have it's own version?
Rebirth is also cringe, please don't use it.
Rebirth is also cringe, please don't use it.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 14. January 2025, 03:33:54 »I just noticed this guy has BOTH Quest Note Notifier and New Quest Notifier activated. WTF?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 14. January 2025, 02:59:33 »Is there a way to launch a modded version of System Shock 2 through just a shortcut without having to open blue mod manager and click the "launch game" button? Can this be done via a batch script?
Yes. Just run System Shock 2.
All the mod manager does is change some config files to make the game load the mods. Those config file changes are there whether you launch the mod manager or not.
Also, yet another person returning to the game and not using any of the mods I made... *my little dark age plays in the background*
That's word for word how I feel. I *detest* Discord, and I've never been able to see what advantage it gives over e-mail or traditional forums. Yet seemingly over night (it feels like) so many projects and companies and other net-related things have moved over to Discord, as though it is somehow this magnificent solution to some sort of problem that was rendering e-mails and forums unfit for purpose.
Ehh, Discord serves a purpose as a decent chat room. It's sure as hell better than IRC. The real issue is that certain things that REALLY shouldn't be done in a chat room format (like software support) are being shoehorned into the discord model, and it really just doesn't work.
Discord's search is beyond useless, for instance, and it seems designed to be that way since discord (and most other chat software) is entirely about the present - who's chatting now, what's the current topic, etc. When you have people reporting software bugs, that model seems like a recipe for duplicates. Chat rooms work great for freeform discussion, forums are great for structured discussion. It's infuriating how much structured discussion is being pushed onto Discord, and often it just ends up being a nightmare for everyone. Discord has tried to address this with "Threads" etc, but they are still vastly inferior to just using a forum for that kind of thing. But again, that requires hosting on a server somewhere, so people just take the easy and free route, not realizing that you get what you pay for and you get out what you put in.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 13. January 2025, 10:13:18 »SCP, Fixed Objects and SHTUP at the bottom always (SCP lowest, then Objects, then SHTUP). Quest notifiers pick one iirc, and that door retexture is deprecated I think, so take that off, probably - SHTUP has its own hires texture for that door which should be just fine. RealSG needs to be the Rebirth version if using Rebirth.
you need a newer version of the manager to have it recognize the two extra mods, but this actually isn't a problem, they will get loaded even if they are not recognized.
you need a newer version of the manager to have it recognize the two extra mods, but this actually isn't a problem, they will get loaded even if they are not recognized.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 13. January 2025, 07:57:23 »So I just finished System Shock "Enhanced Edition" this afternoon. Unfortunately the enemies getting caught on walls/corners bug present in the current version of the game available on gog definitely makes the difficultly significantly easier in the later levels. The fix present on the current steam version fixes this but introduces significant performance issues with highly annoying microstutting, so pick your poison... Based on the absolutely terrible nightdive email support where they just stop responding after the initial email so that they can simply close the ticket from the queue shows that they don't give a shit after the initial cash has rolled in. What a disappointment...
Anyways, now it's time for a playthrough of a modded System Shock 2 and I have a few questions. This is my current view of blue mod manager:
Is there a reason the "SCP Classic Final Boss" and "SCP Death Taunts" mods found here are "unrecognized"? How do I fix it?
Are the mods all in the correct order? I found order lists in a few places but none of them mention everything that I would like to play with...
Are any of these mods currently redundant and can simply be removed because they are already included within another mod?
Is there a way to launch a modded version of System Shock 2 through just a shortcut without having to open blue mod manager and click the "launch game" button? Can this be done via a batch script?
Thanks in advance.
Anyways, now it's time for a playthrough of a modded System Shock 2 and I have a few questions. This is my current view of blue mod manager:
Is there a reason the "SCP Classic Final Boss" and "SCP Death Taunts" mods found here are "unrecognized"? How do I fix it?
Are the mods all in the correct order? I found order lists in a few places but none of them mention everything that I would like to play with...
Are any of these mods currently redundant and can simply be removed because they are already included within another mod?
Is there a way to launch a modded version of System Shock 2 through just a shortcut without having to open blue mod manager and click the "launch game" button? Can this be done via a batch script?
Thanks in advance.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 21. December 2024, 02:33:57 »I'm very surprised that you got a response. You deserve some sort of framed certificate for that
So was I but the end result was exactly as I expected...
True, but we're talking about humans here. Most of whom act stupidly, are often blind to reality, and just do whatever other people do, either because they are too stupid or lazy to think for themselves, or they just want to be the same as their friends and fit in, or are too blinkered to foresee problems and work towards a solution). I work in I.T., have done since the 1990s, and it *still* amazes me how many people, for example, believe that e-mail is secure. We are largely a species who think that a Facebook or Twitter/X post consisting of "I just ate a delicious pizza" accompanied by two misspellings and a photo of the empty pizza box is not only worthy of attention, but is also probably worth commenting positively about.
Half the world is overweight and unfit, because we don't exercise our bodies enough. Most of the world is stupid, or at least make mistakes that no one with a brain as powerful as the human brain should ever make, because we don't exercise our minds enough.
And I can't claim to be any smarter than most; I'm always telling people to back up EVERYTHING you would regret losing, and keep at least one backup away from your home (if your house burns down, then you lose the original, and any home-stored copies), but I still occasionally lose stuff because I didn't back it up (I'll do it at the later...), and at home I have hard drives full of backups (nothing too important, but I still wouldn't want to lose some of the stuff on them) with no offsite equivalents.
True. Unfortunately you can't cure stupid.
I think a lot of the younger generation simply doesn't know any better through. The blind leading the blind has never produced positive results. How many people have ever heard about the 3-2-1 rule regarding storage much less anyone under 30 these days?
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 20. December 2024, 14:39:16 »Just out of curiosity I sent nightdive support an email (support@nightdivestudios.com) asking when this bug was going to be fixed since it's been 4 years and they have done nothing. I received a reply the next day asking for further details as if they were completely unaware.
I'm very surprised that you got a response. You deserve some sort of framed certificate for that
Discord absolutely sucks.
Email was specifically created to be THE standard method of communication on the internet. And yet nobody uses it. When we do use it, our inbox gets filled with garbage.
Any company that handles support "over discord" rather than having a simple easy email-based system doesn't deserve money in my opinion. Forcing everyone onto a closed platform made by a predatory advertising company just to get some basic support for a completely unrelated product is beyond stupid. Email is an open standard, accessible by everyone, and is much better at generating a communication trail than Discord is.
That's word for word how I feel. I *detest* Discord, and I've never been able to see what advantage it gives over e-mail or traditional forums. Yet seemingly over night (it feels like) so many projects and companies and other net-related things have moved over to Discord, as though it is somehow this magnificent solution to some sort of problem that was rendering e-mails and forums unfit for purpose.
I only partially agree with this. The situation as a whole is shitty but those that find themselves in it are due to poor personal choices. When you choose to completely give up control of your data to a mega corporation to store because it's "free" or has a low monthly cost rather than buying physical storage that's on you. What's even worse is that in the long run, you'd actually save money if you just bought an additional/upgraded to a larger SSD/hard drive yourself and then you would actually own something at the end of it.
True, but we're talking about humans here. Most of whom act stupidly, are often blind to reality, and just do whatever other people do, either because they are too stupid or lazy to think for themselves, or they just want to be the same as their friends and fit in, or are too blinkered to foresee problems and work towards a solution). I work in I.T., have done since the 1990s, and it *still* amazes me how many people, for example, believe that e-mail is secure. We are largely a species who think that a Facebook or Twitter/X post consisting of "I just ate a delicious pizza" accompanied by two misspellings and a photo of the empty pizza box is not only worthy of attention, but is also probably worth commenting positively about.
Half the world is overweight and unfit, because we don't exercise our bodies enough. Most of the world is stupid, or at least make mistakes that no one with a brain as powerful as the human brain should ever make, because we don't exercise our minds enough.
And I can't claim to be any smarter than most; I'm always telling people to back up EVERYTHING you would regret losing, and keep at least one backup away from your home (if your house burns down, then you lose the original, and any home-stored copies), but I still occasionally lose stuff because I didn't back it up (I'll do it at the later...), and at home I have hard drives full of backups (nothing too important, but I still wouldn't want to lose some of the stuff on them) with no offsite equivalents.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 20. December 2024, 07:29:04 »Discord is only part of the problem.
I fear for my entire generation on a more fundamental level.
We are the first generation to have our entire lives catalogued digitally. Instead of having the family photo books, or heirlooms to pass on, we instead document our lives by uploading stuff to servers. This is deeply troubling because in the vast majority of cases we don't have personal backups. In the best case, we have a resized and modified image uploaded on some website that won't be around forever and can delete our memories at any moment, and at worst we have a black hole where a site used to be and now everything is gone.
I fear that our grandchildren will ask us "What was life like in the 2020s" and we won't be able to show them, because everything will have either been stored on some website we forgot the login for years ago, be behind a paywall, or just won't exist anymore.
But Discord is the worst of the worst. As much as I despise reddit, I can at least find useful reddit posts occasionally. Sometimes I will have a weird, rare issue with a piece of software, and oftentimes an obscure Reddit result from 10 years ago has the solution. It sucks because that result will eventually disappear when Reddit eventually dies, but at least Reddit is searchable. Unless it was posted in the last week, finding something on Discord is an absolute nightmare.
If you don't have any history and are perpetually living a transient, disposable existence, then you're not living.
Discord is a reasonably-usable chat program. That's why it got popular amongst gamers at a time where there weren't many particularly good alternatives for general chat. But now it's being shoehorned into a forum/support service and it's just plain not good enough for the job. I would still hate it if it was ONLY used for chats, because so many online """"communities"""" want to waste everyone's time by having huge discord chats about absolutely nothing for hours on end, but at least that's mostly harmless to outside observers and non-participants. Forcing people onto a chat platform in order to receive basic product support is just awful for everyone involved.
Honestly I don't understand why forums mostly died out. Forums are great, especially for the kind of technical support that Discord is horrible at. Forums are extremely usable, don't demand huge amounts of time, and do just as god a job at fostering a community as Discord does. And yet people consider them "outdated" and don't use them.
I only partially agree with this. The situation as a whole is shitty but those that find themselves in it are due to poor personal choices. When you choose to completely give up control of your data to a mega corporation to store because it's "free" or has a low monthly cost rather than buying physical storage that's on you. What's even worse is that in the long run, you'd actually save money if you just bought an additional/upgraded to a larger SSD/hard drive yourself and then you would actually own something at the end of it.
I've never understood those that can't look further than the present day to factor monetary cost. Much less the risk factor cost and this doesn't even get into the privacy implications for the vast majority that store their data in the "cloud" unencrypted. It's just a terrible idea and even if it's "free" (because anyone with half a brain knows that nothing is actually free) all of these offers have been exclusively designed around a business model approved by a team of bean counters where the corporations interests are met first. That means they either scan your files to create a profile to sell to data brokers, they use it to train "AI" models or you're giving exclusive ownership rights of any data you store to the company to do with as they please. It's terrible.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 20. December 2024, 02:18:19 »This is the "general discussion on random topics" thread. Read the title.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 20. December 2024, 02:06:28 »I can't even tell what this thread is about anymore.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 20. December 2024, 01:40:10 »Discord is only part of the problem.
I fear for my entire generation on a more fundamental level.
We are the first generation to have our entire lives catalogued digitally. Instead of having the family photo books, or heirlooms to pass on, we instead document our lives by uploading stuff to servers. This is deeply troubling because in the vast majority of cases we don't have personal backups. In the best case, we have a resized and modified image uploaded on some website that won't be around forever and can delete our memories at any moment, and at worst we have a black hole where a site used to be and now everything is gone.
I fear that our grandchildren will ask us "What was life like in the 2020s" and we won't be able to show them, because everything will have either been stored on some website we forgot the login for years ago, be behind a paywall, or just won't exist anymore.
But Discord is the worst of the worst. As much as I despise reddit, I can at least find useful reddit posts occasionally. Sometimes I will have a weird, rare issue with a piece of software, and oftentimes an obscure Reddit result from 10 years ago has the solution. It sucks because that result will eventually disappear when Reddit eventually dies, but at least Reddit is searchable. Unless it was posted in the last week, finding something on Discord is an absolute nightmare.
If you don't have any history and are perpetually living a transient, disposable existence, then you're not living.
Discord is a reasonably-usable chat program. That's why it got popular amongst gamers at a time where there weren't many particularly good alternatives for general chat. But now it's being shoehorned into a forum/support service and it's just plain not good enough for the job. I would still hate it if it was ONLY used for chats, because so many online """"communities"""" want to waste everyone's time by having huge discord chats about absolutely nothing for hours on end, but at least that's mostly harmless to outside observers and non-participants. Forcing people onto a chat platform in order to receive basic product support is just awful for everyone involved.
Honestly I don't understand why forums mostly died out. Forums are great, especially for the kind of technical support that Discord is horrible at. Forums are extremely usable, don't demand huge amounts of time, and do just as god a job at fostering a community as Discord does. And yet people consider them "outdated" and don't use them.
I fear for my entire generation on a more fundamental level.
We are the first generation to have our entire lives catalogued digitally. Instead of having the family photo books, or heirlooms to pass on, we instead document our lives by uploading stuff to servers. This is deeply troubling because in the vast majority of cases we don't have personal backups. In the best case, we have a resized and modified image uploaded on some website that won't be around forever and can delete our memories at any moment, and at worst we have a black hole where a site used to be and now everything is gone.
I fear that our grandchildren will ask us "What was life like in the 2020s" and we won't be able to show them, because everything will have either been stored on some website we forgot the login for years ago, be behind a paywall, or just won't exist anymore.
But Discord is the worst of the worst. As much as I despise reddit, I can at least find useful reddit posts occasionally. Sometimes I will have a weird, rare issue with a piece of software, and oftentimes an obscure Reddit result from 10 years ago has the solution. It sucks because that result will eventually disappear when Reddit eventually dies, but at least Reddit is searchable. Unless it was posted in the last week, finding something on Discord is an absolute nightmare.
If you don't have any history and are perpetually living a transient, disposable existence, then you're not living.
Discord is a reasonably-usable chat program. That's why it got popular amongst gamers at a time where there weren't many particularly good alternatives for general chat. But now it's being shoehorned into a forum/support service and it's just plain not good enough for the job. I would still hate it if it was ONLY used for chats, because so many online """"communities"""" want to waste everyone's time by having huge discord chats about absolutely nothing for hours on end, but at least that's mostly harmless to outside observers and non-participants. Forcing people onto a chat platform in order to receive basic product support is just awful for everyone involved.
Honestly I don't understand why forums mostly died out. Forums are great, especially for the kind of technical support that Discord is horrible at. Forums are extremely usable, don't demand huge amounts of time, and do just as god a job at fostering a community as Discord does. And yet people consider them "outdated" and don't use them.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 20. December 2024, 01:03:00 »Discord absolutely sucks.
Email was specifically created to be THE standard method of communication on the internet. And yet nobody uses it. When we do use it, our inbox gets filled with garbage.
Any company that handles support "over discord" rather than having a simple easy email-based system doesn't deserve money in my opinion. Forcing everyone onto a closed platform made by a predatory advertising company just to get some basic support for a completely unrelated product is beyond stupid. Email is an open standard, accessible by everyone, and is much better at generating a communication trail than Discord is.
Completely agree. Ad companies are a cancerous cess pit and have ruined the internet. I have no idea how discord has retardedly become the default these days. How much information is now inaccessible to those looking for it because it's hidden behind a login on a closed third party platform with no way to search for it?
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 20. December 2024, 00:31:06 »Discord absolutely sucks.
Email was specifically created to be THE standard method of communication on the internet. And yet nobody uses it. When we do use it, our inbox gets filled with garbage.
Any company that handles support "over discord" rather than having a simple easy email-based system doesn't deserve money in my opinion. Forcing everyone onto a closed platform made by a predatory advertising company just to get some basic support for a completely unrelated product is beyond stupid. Email is an open standard, accessible by everyone, and is much better at generating a communication trail than Discord is.
Email was specifically created to be THE standard method of communication on the internet. And yet nobody uses it. When we do use it, our inbox gets filled with garbage.
Any company that handles support "over discord" rather than having a simple easy email-based system doesn't deserve money in my opinion. Forcing everyone onto a closed platform made by a predatory advertising company just to get some basic support for a completely unrelated product is beyond stupid. Email is an open standard, accessible by everyone, and is much better at generating a communication trail than Discord is.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 20. December 2024, 00:22:23 »Just out of curiosity I sent nightdive support an email (support@nightdivestudios.com) asking when this bug was going to be fixed since it's been 4 years and they have done nothing. I received a reply the next day asking for further details as if they were completely unaware. So I replied mentioning that they were already well aware of the problem and have chosen to do nothing about it then provided about 10 different links to various reports of the issue including the link sarge posted above. It's now been radio silence for 4 days. Maybe there are better ways to get in contact with nightdive these days but since garbage like discord requires a phone number, it's a service I will never be utilizing.
All I can say is that I now know which developer won't be seeing a penny more of my money moving forward since they can't be trusted to support and maintain what they sell to customers. Software piracy is looking more and more like a necessity to try before you buy. I know that I like many users buy games when they are on sale and don't get to play them until some times a couple years after purchase so the 30 day refund policy on GOG for example is inadequate.
All I can say is that I now know which developer won't be seeing a penny more of my money moving forward since they can't be trusted to support and maintain what they sell to customers. Software piracy is looking more and more like a necessity to try before you buy. I know that I like many users buy games when they are on sale and don't get to play them until some times a couple years after purchase so the 30 day refund policy on GOG for example is inadequate.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 19. December 2024, 12:29:45 »I dont agree with a sizable portion of that, e.g double click holstering adding even more clicks to now unholster. The feature was quality of life solely to prevent missclicks, such as putting away your weapon when attempting to frob tiny buttons in the heat of combat, which had a non-negligible rate of occurrence especially in the case of some dodgy interaction collisions. Adding extra clicks for the reverse would deter me from the option, having to commit to extra clicks any time I want to draw a weapon when it's not really necessary as there's no notable conflict of function/player intent in the reverse. You're putting something IN your hand, which is actually useful as opposed to nothing. But whatever, my work has clearly outlived me, I am now irrelevant, this is your fork and time to shine. I'll go back to my corner and wish you the best, anticipating the final result.
Every person who has tested the mod so far has told me that the double-clock unholstering behavior provides a more consistent experience that meets their expectations and they like how it essentially prevents accidental draws the same way double-click prevents unwanted holstering.
Putting nothing in your hand is actually very useful. It gives you access to the left-frobbing mechanic, which was extremely undercooked in GMDX and is massively expanded here. In most cases this isn't a problem because it's a different button, but sometimes you want to quickly right click and then left click (like pressing a button, then left-frobbing the weapon inside), and missing your right click will cause annoyance as you now have to re-holster your weapon.
There are also several points in the game where accidentally drawing a weapon can instantly end your playthrough, like in various bars where everyone will become instantly hostile.
But I also see your point. You make a perfectly valid criticism that I think is important. I doubt you're the only person who would be turned off with the new way the option works.
Luckily the janky GMDX settings menu has been replaced with a list menu, so it's trivial to add new settings.
I'll probably change "double click holstering" to have three modes: off, holstering only, and both.
One of the great things about GMDX (especially the version I'm working on) is that there are a lot of settings to cater to a lot of people's needs. So don't feel like you're powerless here. In fact, why don't you beta test and provide some feedback? You can still be very relevant to the design if you give feedback.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 18. December 2024, 16:15:15 »What's even worse is that apparently the studio is/was having a tough time aquiring rights/licenses/permission to work on specific titles so Nightdive is considering going the unofficial route via community mods. However there is one catch, they want users to pay them for it... You know for the same work modders do for free in their spare time. If Nightdive can't even finish the work they start on officially sanctioned projects, who the hell would be dumb enough to expect they wouldn't just abandon a mod the minute a more lucrative contract is signed?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rziJq7btneE
If NightDive do go down that route (selling new patches for old games, rather than making new versions of old games) then that will remove the best thing (to me) about NightDive, them bringing old games to modern consoles. All the patches in the world for an old PC game won't make the game suddenly become available on the PS4. I don't know how much of NightDive's revenue comes from game sales on consoles as opposed to the PC, but I think it's fair to say that NDS won't want to throw away their console games' profits.
Plus it's NDS, so I really wouldn't feel too hopeful about giving them my money on their promise to produce a modernising patch for an old game that I love, then trusting them to produce a satisfactory patch within a reasonable time, and then releasing more patches to fix remaining bugs, NDS' past is against them here. At least when they actually release a game, then you can see what other gamers are saying about it, and then decide if it sounds worth your money.
Posted by: Join2
« on: 18. December 2024, 03:29:47 »Nightdive most certainly is not doing a lot of these games justice, and it's clear to me cash is more important than integrity to them, BUT sometimes they get it right or did in the past, and in a lot of cases it could be worse. We also cant expect perfection from anyone. I do not support them at all, consider them parasitic, and yet of all these shitheads remaking and remastering everything and ruining them in he process, well they're probably the best option. So many of my favorite games have been butchered in the new age, the list goes on and on, but Nightdive typically make a few missteps per game rather than ruining it entirely. Sad. But got to give credit where it is due. It could be worse, they're the best of a bad situation...
...they haven't got their hands on Deus Ex yet though. After that I imagine I wont put in any defense or backhanded compliment again, will just ignore them entirely.
No, I probably just gave more credit than is deserved. Many of these games didn't even need any remaster to begin with, and they should have instead moved to serious game dev if they were legit. I guess grabbing old licenses and shitting out minor updates (or downgrades) regardless of if they're needed or not is a better business model.
...they haven't got their hands on Deus Ex yet though. After that I imagine I wont put in any defense or backhanded compliment again, will just ignore them entirely.
No, I probably just gave more credit than is deserved. Many of these games didn't even need any remaster to begin with, and they should have instead moved to serious game dev if they were legit. I guess grabbing old licenses and shitting out minor updates (or downgrades) regardless of if they're needed or not is a better business model.
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 18. December 2024, 01:02:44 »I used to have high hopes for NightDive Studios. A software house that took old classic games, and updated them to run on modern systems, sometimes giving them extra functions and features, and even bringing those mostly PC-only games to console? To me, that was briliant. And they were going to be more open and conversational with their customers too.
And the games/updates/remasters that they do release are really good (at least the ones I have played, so no non-first person shooters) so fair praise to them for that. But that's where the good ends. NightDive seem to feel almost compelled to leave their games with unfixed bugs and glitches. and the company might as well not exist, as far as communicating with your customers is concerned. It's such a pity.
If anyone were to ask me now "Who is your favourite game developer", then I wouldn't have an answer, because to me (a fifty-four year old bloke, who has been video gaming since about 1980, starting with the very early arcade games such as Space invaders) the software industry has never been less interesting and less stale. So I would doubly love NightDive, for their reviving of old but classic games. But I just don't like NDS's "We're only doing it for the money' vibes.
What's even worse is that apparently the studio is/was having a tough time aquiring rights/licenses/permission to work on specific titles so Nightdive is considering going the unofficial route via community mods. However there is one catch, they want users to pay them for it... You know for the same work modders do for free in their spare time. If Nightdive can't even finish the work they start on officially sanctioned projects, who the hell would be dumb enough to expect they wouldn't just abandon a mod the minute a more lucrative contract is signed?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rziJq7btneE
Posted by: Brisk
« on: 17. December 2024, 23:43:52 »It's cute that you still think corporate re-releases of old games are anything other than cynical cash grabs.
Nah, more just stating what has transpired. Their CEO/studio head/whatever title he's going by today Stephen Kick talks a big game about what a huge fan he is of these old games and how he doesn't want to do wrong by them. Sadly his actions speak louder than his panderings.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 17. December 2024, 14:41:19 »Starting to lose faith in nightdive. They seem to leave the games they "remaster" in various states of unfinished instead moving on to the next shiny toy that they can cash in on. The last patch was 4 years ago...
Then there's the mess they left Blood in and issues with a few other games off the top of my head. It seems that community source port maintainers are the only ones that give a damn.
Not what one would expect from a commercial product they paid for.
I used to have high hopes for NightDive Studios. A software house that took old classic games, and updated them to run on modern systems, sometimes giving them extra functions and features, and even bringing those mostly PC-only games to console? To me, that was briliant. And they were going to be more open and conversational with their customers too.
And the games/updates/remasters that they do release are really good (at least the ones I have played, so no non-first person shooters) so fair praise to them for that. But that's where the good ends. NightDive seem to feel almost compelled to leave their games with unfixed bugs and glitches. and the company might as well not exist, as far as communicating with your customers is concerned. It's such a pity.
If anyone were to ask me now "Who is your favourite game developer", then I wouldn't have an answer, because to me (a fifty-four year old bloke, who has been video gaming since about 1980, starting with the very early arcade games such as Space invaders) the software industry has never been less interesting and less stale. So I would doubly love NightDive, for their reviving of old but classic games. But I just don't like NDS's "We're only doing it for the money' vibes.
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