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Topic Summary

Posted by: sarge945
« on: Yesterday at 05:06:01 »

Does this mean we can have a more accurate/realistic representation of the macarena?

If so, sign me the fuck up. In fact, just hook it up to my veins.
Posted by: Livo
« on: 09. March 2025, 13:18:15 »

eldrone
Fantastic to hear, that's wonderful news! I'm sure the scripting animation Squirrel system will encourage a lot more people to experiment with the editing tools!

I guess I'd better start learning how to animate in Blender and also how to code in Squirrel, if I want to attempt an in-engine cutscene mod, or a "career choice affects the type of sleeve the player has a la Gareth Hinds' concept art" mod, or any one of my utterly crazy ideas  :thinking:
Posted by: eldrone
« on: 09. March 2025, 12:49:11 »

a situation where Dark decides to be Dark and gets stuck on some step during an in-engine cutscene softlocking the game surely is less than desirable.

True, but this goes for pretty much anything in dark.

Scripted cutscenes would only lock up if the actual script execution locks up.

The game is actually full of in-game cutscenes, but most happen with the player still in control.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 09. March 2025, 11:40:35 »

a situation where Dark decides to be Dark and gets stuck on some step during an in-engine cutscene softlocking the game surely is less than desirable.
Posted by: CyrusVonNox2001
« on: 09. March 2025, 11:35:56 »

Chandlermaki
Ok, bad take on my part.
Posted by: eldrone
« on: 09. March 2025, 10:36:29 »

eldrone
Cheers, thanks for that info, I really appreciate it!

With the Squirrel based animation implementation for KexDark, does that make life much easier to port/create in-game scripted sequences, like the "Journey throughout the Many" hallucination, or Shodan's office reveal compared to the old engine? Or was that more a "Cinematic & camera tools for Dark was the real headache for Irrational & Nightdive" problem?

Hopefully Squirrel scripting for level-sequences will greatly benefit future modders and FM authors. Speaking of in-game engine scripted scenes & animations, I've posted about this before as the dumb ideas guy, but is there any possibility of some of the cutscenes being rendered in-engine with the improved tools? I DON'T mean the cheesy "Trioptimum von Braun promo with the fancy 3D ship fly-by" intro, that'd be way, way too fiddly & time-consuming to make! Just the actual "Goggles in his cryo-pod waking up", "Career choice shuttles leaving the station" and the final "Nah/don't you like my new look?" scenes.

Maybe the career choice shuttles could also be video files if Nightdive is really pushed for time, but in-game cryo-pod & ending would be fantastic, as you'd be able to see any graphical tweaks you're running displayed, rather than an awkward transition between engine and video. I've seen a few Let's Play videos of people running SHTUP or other mods, being taken aback at the abrupt quality shifts, as they didn't know about the video files prior.

The idea has crossed my mind a few times but all the cutscenes are still hand-remade and pre-rendered like before.

It would absolutely be possible though.


This is made as modders tools, so like you said, a fan mission or a mod could make something like a small cutscene without having to deal with shocked setups, or for example add something without having to edit SCP .mis files.


But the idea is just a table you create in squirrel that has a series of events at certain time points. Like teleport camera, move camera from point a to point b over time, trigger a TurnOn message on something, spawn an object, make an AI walk somewhere, fade in fade out etc.

At the end of it the cutscene state is cleaned up and game returns to normal.


And then you just send a message such as PlayCutscene with the name of the cutscene to the player object and it'll trigger.
Posted by: Livo
« on: 09. March 2025, 07:55:47 »

ZylonBane
I know Nightdive said they were redoing some cutscenes in higher quality, like the "von Braun with crew members walking around" comparison in one of their promo articles. I was rather naively hoping it was a "we only did the very first ship flyby as a video file, due to the vast amount of work needed to make 3D spaceships in KexDark, but surprise, everything else is in-game!" situation. Very optimistic I know  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Actually, has Nightdive explicitly confirmed that ALL of the cutscenes are just higher-resolution video recordings of their updated models & textures? All I can find is articles that just say "Redone higher quality cutscenes", but nothing on the format type. A lot of those articles are badly written by people who genuinely are unaware of any mods for SS2, or haven't even played it apparently.
Posted by: Chandlermaki
« on: 09. March 2025, 05:36:46 »

I did see the screenshot for BotM and I think they should smooth out some of the polygonal map design, I know SS2 is from 1999, but I'm pretty sure none of our insides are that angular.

Great idea! Hop into DromEd/ShockEd, and let us know how that goes for you! Surely this is entirely possible in Dark and there will be no technical limitations whatsoever!
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 09. March 2025, 03:12:25 »

Why would any of the cutscene be rendered in-engine when Night Dive has already remade them at higher quality?
Posted by: Livo
« on: 09. March 2025, 02:50:54 »

eldrone
Cheers, thanks for that info, I really appreciate it!

With the Squirrel based animation implementation for KexDark, does that make life much easier to port/create in-game scripted sequences, like the "Journey throughout the Many" hallucination, or Shodan's office reveal compared to the old engine? Or was that more a "Cinematic & camera tools for Dark was the real headache for Irrational & Nightdive" problem?

Hopefully Squirrel scripting for level-sequences will greatly benefit future modders and FM authors. Speaking of in-game engine scripted scenes & animations, I've posted about this before as the dumb ideas guy, but is there any possibility of some of the cutscenes being rendered in-engine with the improved tools? I DON'T mean the cheesy "Trioptimum von Braun promo with the fancy 3D ship fly-by" intro, that'd be way, way too fiddly & time-consuming to make! Just the actual "Goggles in his cryo-pod waking up", "Career choice shuttles leaving the station" and the final "Nah/don't you like my new look?" scenes.

Maybe the career choice shuttles could also be video files if Nightdive is really pushed for time, but in-game cryo-pod & ending would be fantastic, as you'd be able to see any graphical tweaks you're running displayed, rather than an awkward transition between engine and video. I've seen a few Let's Play videos of people running SHTUP or other mods, being taken aback at the abrupt quality shifts, as they didn't know about the video files prior.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 09. March 2025, 02:12:44 »

Someone hold me back.
Posted by: CyrusVonNox2001
« on: 08. March 2025, 23:53:26 »

I did see the screenshot for BotM and I think they should smooth out some of the polygonal map design, I know SS2 is from 1999, but I'm pretty sure none of our insides are that angular.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 07. March 2025, 18:21:18 »

my brain just wouldn't let me rest
you'll fit right in.
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 07. March 2025, 16:15:18 »

I think I actually came up with that NewDark <-> OldDark thing too

Turns out the oldest recorded instance on this forum of the term "OldDark" from an unedited message is actually attributed to you:

Quote by voodoo47 link=topic=5954.msg62881#msg62881
Quote by modders_notes.txt
The priority order is as follows, where the first has the highest override priority:

    .DDS
    .PNG
    .TGA
    .BMP
    .PCX
    .GIF
    .CEL
just use the png format for all textures and you will be fine. this will make the weapons incompatible with oldDark, but I wouldn't worry about that too much.

However, there is one post edited before this date, featuring the term OldDark:

...
In OldDark, water surface textures on only 2 directional faces are rendered correctly, while water surface textures on the other 4 directional faces get stretched & skewed. When axis = 2, only Top & Bottom water surface textures are rendered correctly. When Axis = 1, only North & South water surface textures are rendered correctly. When Axis = 0, only East & West water surface textures are rendered correctly. In NewDark, all water surface textures render correctly and rotate and/or scroll in the direction(s) specified.
...

As a result, you are correct - any proof is indeed lost to time (or maybe just a different forum ;)).

Sorry, this is super off-topic - my brain just wouldn't let me rest until I found the closest possible thing to proof.
Posted by: eldrone
« on: 07. March 2025, 08:28:43 »

also, KexDark (or rather, KEXDark) was mentioned for the first time on discord, almost exactly 4 years ago, by yours truly. just in case you'd want to know.

Yeah, rolls off the tongue, but it's a nickname.

Right in the middle of it, it's still dark engine.

Kex doesn't replace so much as it interfaces and makes development and porting faster, so a lot of improvements are improvements to dark.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 06. March 2025, 17:25:03 »

NDA has been signed - set your toasters to 6 months and keep your fingers crossed.

Exciting times!
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 06. March 2025, 16:41:52 »

yep! I certainly am!
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 06. March 2025, 16:21:31 »

Wow, you really can name stuff! And you're really good at it too!
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 06. March 2025, 16:19:57 »

I think I actually came up with that NewDark <-> OldDark thing too, but any proof that might have existed probably is lost to time.

I can name stuff!
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 06. March 2025, 16:02:43 »

Well, I didn't have Discord 4 years ago, and I only discovered this franchise late 2023. I still applaud you for coming up with that name.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 06. March 2025, 15:57:49 »

also, KexDark (or rather, KEXDark) was mentioned for the first time on discord, almost exactly 4 years ago, by yours truly. just in case you'd want to know.
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 06. March 2025, 15:37:32 »

Fair point.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 06. March 2025, 15:25:54 »

what else would you expect?
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 06. March 2025, 15:19:55 »

So, it's officially called KexDark now?
Posted by: eldrone
« on: 06. March 2025, 09:31:21 »

Stupid question: how does the process of making/porting animations for both the Anniversary models, and the vanilla models, work exactly with the two different types in the 25th Anniversary version?

If you make say, a two-handed shotgun hybrid carry animation for the Anniversary models (a la early SS2 screenshots), is making it also for the original models, fairly easy with the updated model tools you've developed? Or do you have to do vastly different rigging, joint bones etc for "25th Anniversary" vs "Original models"? Ditto for weapon model animations.

In Half Life 1, there's the HD pack models, which have different joints compared to the original ones, different animations and infamously, different timings for certain stuff like running: some mods back in the day had their scripted sequences messed up if the player was using the HD pack. Fans had to make custom HD pack models with correct speed/timing to fix this, many years ago.


The motion format and database is still unchanged, it's a whole complicated thing so anything there for the nightdive mod will be updated motions.

There will be a better set of blender tools for importing and exporting both meshes and motions though, so characters are set up using just a regular armature with weight painting.

It's a breeze compared to limit planes.

Both mesh and obj has had a new version update, similar but with a few new features.
Kexdark supports both old and new.



Static mesh animations such as with the weapons is where it gets interesting: it's all implemented using a squirrel based animation system.

So static mesh joints and object positions can have animations triggered just by sending a specific object a message, and if a certain animation script is attached to it, it will know what to do.

So the shotgun for example: it has a bunch of animations set up for shooting, reloading, equipping etc. And in shooting you have the motion for shooting, the kickback and the shell ejection at the end, it can even trigger the ejection point and where to eject from.

Sounds can be triggered in the animation too.

Weapons are also procedurally animated via camera movement and and player movement.


This system could be used to set up something complicated like the shodan reveal scene using keyframes in a table inside a .nut file. Or have very fine control over a static mesh made up of a bunch of joints, like a robotic factory arm.
Posted by: Livo
« on: 06. March 2025, 04:16:51 »

Stupid question: how does the process of making/porting animations for both the Anniversary models, and the vanilla models, work exactly with the two different types in the 25th Anniversary version?

If you make say, a two-handed shotgun hybrid carry animation for the Anniversary models (a la early SS2 screenshots), is making it also for the original models, fairly easy with the updated model tools you've developed? Or do you have to do vastly different rigging, joint bones etc for "25th Anniversary" vs "Original models"? Ditto for weapon model animations.

In Half Life 1, there's the HD pack models, which have different joints compared to the original ones, different animations and infamously, different timings for certain stuff like running: some mods back in the day had their scripted sequences messed up if the player was using the HD pack. Fans had to make custom HD pack models with correct speed/timing to fix this, many years ago. 
Posted by: Valet2
« on: 04. March 2025, 11:48:21 »

Posted by: eldrone
« on: 04. March 2025, 07:00:07 »

Yeah as you've all seen, NDAs have been going out, we'll let anyone involved know when things start rolling!
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 04. March 2025, 02:06:05 »

Seems more like you had yourself.
Posted by: Dingus
« on: 04. March 2025, 01:21:31 »

Okay, thanks for clarifying, you had me there for a sec 😅
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 04. March 2025, 01:19:55 »

no, I just gave you my estimate. the one I've been mentioning since forever - once the internal beta test starts, a release in 6 months is not impossible.

if I knew for sure, I would NOT be able to tell you what it is.
Posted by: Dingus
« on: 04. March 2025, 01:03:52 »

6 months? As in it'll release in six months? Did you just break your NDA?
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 03. March 2025, 20:55:16 »

NDA has been signed - set your toasters to 6 months and keep your fingers crossed.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 28. February 2025, 20:25:40 »

observe - this forum is a place on the internet where sound and logical arguments managed to change an opinion.

this should be archived somehow so that future generations could refer to it.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 28. February 2025, 20:13:49 »

Whoops, fixed that year.
Posted by: tiphares4
« on: 28. February 2025, 19:22:19 »

I think you people are all right, i changed my opinion, give it back the original color :/

Additionally, consider this: Aliens (1996) was a huge cultural presence while SS2 was in development. And what did Aliens prominently feature?




It is even from 1986, and i wanted to post the very same picture here for comparison. It is indeed more similar to original maintanance droid skin.... now i see it.

for the midwife ass - if they wanted to give her more ass, they would have done so back in 1999. so no extra ass, would you kindly.

But new midwife cyborg looks awesome imo, i especially like for e.g. how slim her waist seems to be now - for the extra creepiness - it also looks more "aesthetic" if one dare to say so, but i wished her legs were more akin to the concept art: the outer thighs' ridges. Also her (louise brooks) hair is still blocky, but i guess there is still too restricted polygon count or whatever..
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 28. February 2025, 17:20:53 »

So, I take it we're getting a SHTUP-25 mod shortly after release, specifically for this version?
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 28. February 2025, 17:18:59 »

Actually now that I compare the two side-by-side, it's evident this isn't just a saturation shift, but a significant hue shift as well.



What was yellow, is now orange. It's not even bright orange, but rather a dull burnt orange, so it loses the aspect of being intentionally painted with a high-visibility color for safety, which emphasizes that it's a non-combat droid. You want high-vis colors to be bold and eye-catching. That's the entire point. Anyone who thinks these colors should "blend into the world" has critically failed to understand the assignment.

Additionally, consider this: Aliens (1986) was still a huge cultural presence while SS2 was in development. And what did Aliens prominently feature?



And yes, it was bright yellow when you can see past all the on-set fog and lighting. Did the power loader influence the appearance of the maintenance bot? I'd lay good odds on it.

So if a yellow mech suit was good enough for one of the greatest scfi films of all time, I'd say a yellow mech is still good enough for SS2. The dull orange take is just change for the sake of change.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 28. February 2025, 15:58:06 »

This is the palette for the main maintenance bot texture. As y'all can plainly see, it's optimized for the maintenance bot, not for shared use.



I swear to god, some things just bring the knee-jerk contrarians out of the woodwork.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 28. February 2025, 14:42:12 »

I don't think the Thief assets contained any SS2 textures at that time.

off the top of my head, the only example of a discolored vanilla texture is the training signs on the earth map, but that is a bug/incorrect rendering setting, not an inability to assign an intended color - as mentioned, this never was an issue, even in oldDark.

so if an object is bright yellow, then you can be 99.99% sure it was meant to be bright yellow.


same goes for the midwife ass - if they wanted to give her more ass, they would have done so back in 1999. so no extra ass, would you kindly.
Posted by: Livo
« on: 28. February 2025, 12:33:29 »

I know Irrational got a copy of the then still in-development Dark engine to use whilst they were making SS2, the first Thief game could run on a software renderer I believe. Maybe some of the earliest textures they created were palletized for an early build that supported software rendering, but they didn't have time to adjust those early textures when SS2 was switched to a hardware renderer only?
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 28. February 2025, 12:08:12 »

Wasn't Irrational forced to use a pretty restricted color palette, as was the standard at the time?
What? SS2 textures can use any 24-bit color. Restricted palettes are for software renderers. SS2 is hardware rendering only.

Now there were some restrictions on how many unique colors be used simultaneously, for example only 256 different colors per texture, but again, that didn't restrict the individual palette choices.
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 28. February 2025, 10:58:54 »

yes, there are bugs to be found here and there. the maintdroid color is not one of them.
Posted by: eldrone
« on: 28. February 2025, 10:50:05 »

Wasn't Irrational forced to use a pretty restricted color palette, as was the standard at the time?

Yeah, there's a bunch of cases of tone shifting from palletization in the original textures
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 28. February 2025, 08:21:53 »

Wasn't Irrational forced to use a pretty restricted color palette, as was the standard at the time?
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 28. February 2025, 02:42:12 »

The fundamental point is that there's no good reason to change the color at all. Maintenance bots aren't that color because of any technical limitation, Irrational made them that color because they wanted them to be that color.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 28. February 2025, 01:38:05 »

In my opinion the worst part about the desaturated yellow is that gameplay wise, its gonna create a minor nuisance that didn't use to be there. The higher saturation gives the enemy better visibility, meaning that the player would subconsciously recognize it faster + it would be hard to miss from the corner of your eye (which makes actual "in-world" sense because its a piece of heavy duty machinery!)

I know this is a common complaint whenever anything comes out with more muted colours, and in most cases it's right, but System Shock 2 is such a dark game, and relies so heavily on dark blues, blacks, dark browns, deep purples, and other "dark" colours for it's atmosphere, I don't think making a bright yellow bot slightly darker yellow is going to really make much of a difference for visibility.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 27. February 2025, 17:23:16 »

eldroneOkay that does look better, but still a bit muted compared to the original.

As long as we're nitpicking, I noticed that the lettering on this and some other models is shaded so it looks like it's been "punched" into the metal, which is somewhat odd. For this sort of thing you'd normally expect lettering to be applied with decals or paint, both for ease of maintenance and for not compromising the strength of the material. For droids and turrets, physically carving out letters is essentially damaging the armor.
Posted by: ModdedInstall2
« on: 27. February 2025, 13:45:19 »

While the desaturated colors are indeed an issue (I've always been the kind of guy who likes vibrant over mute shades, and it seems I'm not alone), I am very glad for the fact that most of the new models are incredible, and when paired with the enhanced VFX, System Shock 2 looks like it might actually be able to hold its own visually when compared with modern games, just with RTX off (thank goodness).
Posted by: Valet2
« on: 27. February 2025, 09:51:27 »

Sorry, concerning all the effort you've made... but could realtime shadows be an option?
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