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Topic Summary

Posted by: eldrone
« on: 15. April 2025, 08:00:35 »

Quote by ZylonBane:
Are you serious? Because they were using the Dark Engine, which doesn't support that kind of 6DOF gameplay. You need that for proper Hollywood-style cyberspace. Otherwise it's just regular FPS gameplay with different walls.


Looking at the workings of this engine it mostly feels like cyberspace got sidelined, and the cyberspace in the game is a late stage addition.

Moddingwise the big limitation for 6dof movement is direct input access.
Posted by: gobbins
« on: 15. April 2025, 00:47:23 »

Even if the engine could support such gameplay scenarios I doubt they'd have included them. Of course it's all conjecture at this point, but the game is certainly no worse off without them, just as the original game is hardly made better for its inclusion. No one has ever said: "System Shock 2? Yeah it was good but what it really needed were the 6DOF cyberspace gameplay of the original." You never see anyone claim the cyberspace levels were their favorite part of the original game (and that goes double for the remake)
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 14. April 2025, 21:11:22 »

I hope this place never changes.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 14. April 2025, 20:56:16 »

You've been around long enough that you should know these things. No excuses.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 14. April 2025, 20:46:17 »

Quote by ZylonBane:
Are you serious? Because they were using the Dark Engine, which doesn't support that kind of 6DOF gameplay. You need that for proper Hollywood-style cyberspace. Otherwise it's just regular FPS gameplay with different walls.

Believe it or not, not everyone is familiar with the limitations of a given game engine, just as not everyone will think "Well, obviously having one game engine already meant that they were forbidden by ancient druid law from writing a different set of game engine routines to allow for the Descent style gameplay that was used in the first game. All praise to Gaia".

ZB, I bet every morning, your neighbours hear a crazy cry from the person next door, Screaming "Are you kidding me? The sun rose again!!!"  :)
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 14. April 2025, 17:15:31 »

Are you serious? Because they were using the Dark Engine, which doesn't support that kind of 6DOF gameplay. You need that for proper Hollywood-style cyberspace. Otherwise it's just regular FPS gameplay with different walls.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 14. April 2025, 17:01:29 »

Come to think of it, do we know why SS2's designers decided not to include cyberspace, even though it was an important part of the first game?
Posted by: icemann
« on: 11. April 2025, 04:34:34 »

I remember on my 1st play through (mid nineties I think) not minding the cyberspace. If you look at other games around then that had those sections they were almost always a completely different style of gameplay.

Some did it from first person, some did arcade style, others more like mini-games. Its super rare for the gameplay to be the same as the main game. Same thing applies even present day.
Posted by: fox
« on: 09. April 2025, 18:19:22 »

In 1994 not too many people around here were already surfin' the world wide web on a regular basis... Crazy how fast things changed. Can't remember what the print magazines wrote about System Shocks' cyberspace but they sure praised the overall game.

One article that I have read prior to getting the game, was this one (PC Games 11/94). They mentioned the "cyberstations" as an example for the unusual variety of gameplay elements on offer. I guess it's fair that they don't focus on the details, with so many others things they also needed to mention. Like how "everything looks almost photorealistic". Well, except for the "ridiculous wireframe models" of the cyberspace, which are an "insult to the eye".  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Interwebs in 1994.jpg expired]
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 09. April 2025, 17:04:18 »

Quote by sarge945:
Literally the only thing cyberspace needed was solid wall textures and no more forced forward movement. Then it's perfect.

The people wanting to do complete redesigns don't understand it's problems - or it's strengths.

Not perfect, far from it. Both suggestions would really improve the cyberspace sections, yes, but I still think many people would prefer to avoid it altogether. But if it did have your two changes, plus an onscreen radar to show what enemies and (maybe) items were behind you, and an option on the System Shock's/System Shock Remakes' start menu to teach and practise the cyberspace gameplay. then it would be much, much better.


Edit: When the original System Shock came out in 1994, when players discussed it, was there a tendency for people to praise the cyberspace sections, or to criticise it, or what? How was it generally liked or disliked in forum discussions of the 90s? I can't remember if you can turn off the entire Cyberspace experience (I'm at work, so can't test it) in any or all versions of SS/SSR, is that possible? And if so, did people tend to do so? Or was there ever a fan-made mod for the original game that turned off cyberspace, for those that really hated it?
Posted by: fox
« on: 09. April 2025, 16:23:18 »

No forced forward movement would have made a huge difference, agreed.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 09. April 2025, 07:40:55 »

Literally the only thing cyberspace needed was solid wall textures and no more forced forward movement. Then it's perfect.

The people wanting to do complete redesigns don't understand it's problems - or it's strengths.
Posted by: fox
« on: 07. April 2025, 17:56:29 »

Sounds way too gamified. This is still supposed to be a somewhat serious corpo run space station, isn't it?

Yes, a Descent-like representation isn't any better but that's what they came up with in the original and is a little bit more in line with what authors imagined cyberspace to be like in the early years of Cyberpunk.

Edit: Well, I remember arguing for a Tron 2.0-like representation many years ago. I could still see that working as long as it's more about puzzle solving rather than a straight up shooter.

And while we're dreaming again... I also still wish for a Shock game to have Shenzhen I/O-puzzles instead of whatever was presented to us as hacking mini games so far. That or one that features the coding of else heart.break(). Might even be possible to combine it with a explorable 3D-Cyberspace representation that reacts to code changes or reconfigured logic blocks. Of course no publisher would ever sign off on it - and understandably so.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 07. April 2025, 14:05:34 »

Quote by icemann:
And then throwing out its style entirely for the final battle was the wrong move.

Totally.

If they'd made the cyberspace levels and the final battle into a first person shooter deathmatch game then I think that that would have been much better, though that might just be my love of first person shooters talking. But each Cyberspace deathmatch level could have been a rough approximation of the associated level of Citadel Station, and different enemies, when killed, drop the associated power ups (weapons, health, keys, etc, that would be appropriate for a deatchmatch version of cyberspace). Plus it would seem (to me, at least) a fitting final boss fight if you had to face Shodan in deathmatch, as that way she could play up to her vanity in the form of a beautiful human/digital crossed avatar, and she would arrogantly and cruelly mock you, anticipating her upcoming enjoyment when she kills you.
Posted by: icemann
« on: 07. April 2025, 10:52:37 »

I was confused as hell often in SSR's cyberspace. I really liked its more arcadey style. My issue with it, is that its half baked. Its missing a lot of the upgrades in the original, and it lacks bigtime in enemy variety. Yes I know the original didnt either, but that was an issue for me.

And then throwing out its style entirely for the final battle was the wrong move.
Posted by: fox
« on: 07. April 2025, 08:47:31 »

Not being the masochistic kind of player and having played SSR just recently, I didn't find those bits too hard or confusing at any point. If that was enough already for Mr Colantonio to abandon the game entirely, it's likely that he wasn't overly motivated to get through for other reasons too.

I do remember feeling more disoriented in the original.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 06. April 2025, 21:25:19 »

He literally says it was "too hard", not "too confusing".

But the remake cyberspace sometimes IS too confusing, because they stupidly made the draw distance so short that often you can't even see all the way across a single chamber before the rendering devolves into random distorted cyber-garbage. At least in the original you could always see where paths went, no matter how far away.
Posted by: fox
« on: 06. April 2025, 19:51:56 »

It's been a while since I last played the original but SSR seemed to have made Cyberspace less confusing. So I'm really not getting Raphael Colantonio's complaint in that article. It wasn't a highlight in either one of those games. I guess we can all agree on that.

In the podcast, he doesn't come across as someone who's thrilled about remakes and sequels in general.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 06. April 2025, 19:00:02 »

Yeah even the thought of removing cyberspace from SS1 is insane.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 06. April 2025, 16:56:36 »

Oh I did play the original System Shock, and I didn't like it there, either (and the SSR's cyberspace at least had the  advantage of hidden-line removal, so it was much less confusing to navigate). But I was disappointed to see cyberspace included in SSR, though of course it had to be kept in for legitimacy's sake. I would have liked an option in SSR to change cyberspace into say an enjoyable hacking style game instead, maybe something along the lines of the hacking game in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided.

Mind you, when I played the original System Shock it was using the all in one System Shock + DOSBox + modern controls package that I downloaded from this site countless years ago. I imagine that if I'd have had to play it using the control scheme that the original came with, then I'd have had even more dislike for the cyberspace parts.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 06. April 2025, 13:56:13 »

Have you never played the original System Shock?
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 06. April 2025, 12:52:55 »

It's usually not a good idea in a video game to introduce a different genre of gameplay partway through the game, as many players either might not appreciate it, or might even not like the second genre at all. And the System Shock 2's cyberspace sections are pure Descent style game-play, as opposed to the rest of the game's first person shooter style action. I personally don't like the six degrees of freedom genre, so I don't like SSR's cyberspace sections at all.

And I really think that SSR's cyberspace sections, if it had to be the way it is, should have at least included an onscreen radar, so you could tell when enemies were behind you.
Posted by: icemann
« on: 06. April 2025, 03:29:52 »

The founder of Arkane was not a fan of the cyberspace bits in the remake
Article
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 01. April 2025, 12:44:24 »

There is a game on the Spectrum called 'Saboteur', yes,  but I meant the XBox 360/PS3/PC game 'The Saboteur', which is more of a GTA 3 style game, where you fight as part of the French resistance against the Nazis during World War 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_dwiW1drac

For some reason, this game didn't seem to get a lot of attention online, though I think it's really good, and the reviews and comments that I've seen all seem to be positive.

And yes, I was a Spectrum gamer, then Atari ST, then PC. Brilliant times.
Posted by: icemann
« on: 01. April 2025, 04:41:23 »

Many of those above, I know only from reading Retro Gamer Magazine. Saboteur, Sentinel and Head Over Heels were Spectrum games. Got C64 ports (for Sentinel and Saboteur if I remember right).

Chronicles of Riddick - I really need to play that game at some point. Played the demo long ago, and it looked great. Plus it has Vin Diesel voice acting.

Blood - Awesome game. Played lots of it.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 30. March 2025, 21:09:27 »

Here is a list of I.P.s currently owned by Atari:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1e-tl9Oqwnr78879Lnne_uhlsGkPWFK_z428ZmUaJjog/edit?pli=1&slide=id.g3415bb64202_0_0#slide=id.g3415bb64202_0_0


The only ones I care about are:

Saboteur (if it's The Saboteur, the brilliant 2009 third person shooter/GTA 3 style game),

Sentinel (assuming it's the classic The Sentinel by  Geoff Crammond, which it probably isn't)

System Shock (duh!)

Head Over Heels (assuming it's the isometric game from 1987, though I doubt I'd ever spend much time now with that style of game any more).



I remembered that some XBox 360 games that I liked were published by Atari (which of course doesn't necessarily mean that Atari could do anything further with the games' I.P), so I had a look at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atari_video_games_(2001%E2%80%93present)


Legendary - an OK first person shooter with good graphics and set-pieces, unfortunately a few difficulty-spikes, and some very serious unpatched bugs that can result in soft-locking and IIRC even rendering the save-game unloadable, and it is automatic checkpoint  saving, so you don't have an earlier, uncorrupted save-game file to fall back on.


The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena - The first game, (The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher's Bay), is superb, one of the best ever licensed first person shooter/melee brawlers ever made, and is included with the follow up (Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena), though I've not yet played the latter.


Blood: Fresh Supply - Because it's a port of the fantastic 1997 DOS game, though by all accounts this port has faults that you don't get if you play the fan made ports (NBlood, BuildGDX, or RAZE) instead.

I thought there were more PS3/XBox 360 games that I liked that were published by Atari, but I must be mistaken.

Posted by: fox
« on: 28. March 2025, 15:42:32 »

When was the last time Atari meant anything? As far as I'm concerned, they ceased to exist sometime in 1996 (at the latest).
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 28. March 2025, 14:25:30 »

Quote by sarge945:
numerous scam Kickstarters

Really? I thought it was on IndieGoGo. /j
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 28. March 2025, 05:41:39 »

Atari has been ALLEGEDLY (don't sue me please) involved in numerous scam Kickstarters and other shady nonsense semi-recently, so I'd sell Atari shares too. The name doesn't mean anything anymore.
Posted by: Dingus
« on: 27. March 2025, 02:19:37 »

I mean it was a stretch goal which usually implies "we will use the money that met this goal to fund said goal" which in this case is getting a dorky shodan tattoo with dreads, no? Like, why else have it be a stretch goal? But according to recent atari financial disclosures he has been spending his atari shares after all...  :thinking:
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 27. March 2025, 01:51:55 »

I'm pretty sure Kick wasted his own money on that abomination.
Posted by: Dingus
« on: 27. March 2025, 01:48:55 »

lmfao, it wouldn't be Nightdive if they weren't wasting someone's money
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 26. March 2025, 17:07:25 »

I'd just like to take this moment and point out that NDS never actually reached the goal for that tattoo, meaning they just burned money on it for literally no reason.


Posted by: Xkilljoy98
« on: 21. March 2025, 00:33:14 »

Quote by ZylonBane:
Apparently it's from (quoting a random Reddit post) "1990's cyberpunk film Hardware, which is based on a short story called SHOK!".

So yet another dumb "wouldn't it be cool if" thing shoved into the remake.

Considering the original game had references to stuff, I don't hate a few more here or there. It certainly didn't affect the game in a major way.

Tho I'll say the ending song was a lot better in the original game.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 20. March 2025, 18:08:23 »

I think it's more a message to the fans/backers

You wanted a remake? Well this is what you get then. Be careful what you wish for, suckers!
Posted by: bobf5
« on: 19. March 2025, 20:36:41 »

Quote by ZylonBane:
Apparently it's from (quoting a random Reddit post) "1990's cyberpunk film Hardware, which is based on a short story called SHOK!".

So yet another dumb "wouldn't it be cool if" thing shoved into the remake.

The original game takes sound effects directly from the movie, but that's the only immediate connection outside of genre similarities. Getting rid of the original end theme (which kicked ass and is iconic) and exchanging it for some semi-recognizable 80s song for wider appeal (which is what it is, nobody knows or remembers this movie) is so lame.

Also funny thing: not only does the movie suck, but I bet System Shock 1 unconsciously took more influence from the movie's 'source material' than the movie itself. Here's a serv-bot in 2000AD for example https://ia803208.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=/4/items/2000adjw/0001-0099/2000AD%200013.cbz&file=2000AD%200013%2F2000AD%20013-32%20Competition.jpg
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 19. March 2025, 19:50:59 »

Apparently it's from (quoting a random Reddit post) "1990's cyberpunk film Hardware, which is based on a short story called SHOK!".

So yet another dumb "wouldn't it be cool if" thing shoved into the remake.
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 19. March 2025, 19:39:26 »

I think that the original final cutscene and music are great.
While collecting Let's Plays for our list, I have continuously been baffled by the new outro music and that I never saw anyone talk about it.

this is what you want, this is what you get
this is what you want, this is what you get
this is what you want, this is what you get
this is what you want, this is what you get
this is what you want, this is what you get
  :paranoid:

Do..Do people like that???

Posted by: bobf5
« on: 14. March 2025, 23:11:36 »

Whoever came up with the idea to gut the amazing dynamic music system from the original and replace all the music with drone ambience in the name of 'horror atmosphere' should be smacked across the face :D The game is actually less scary and less enjoyable as a result.

Also the sound design really sucks compared to the original. It's not even remotely visceral like SS1, SS2 or even Terra Nova SFC. It sounds like they went out of their way to use the newest cleanest stock sounds they could, but barely did any editing on them (aside from the abundance of bitcrush filters because that's... why did they do that?), so the final result sounds 'subtle' and really easily commercially accessible, and that's about it. Of course they had to recycle the SS2 hypo sound though, cause that's also in Bioshock and both of those sell!! (see also what they did to the soundtrack ;) )
Posted by: Chandlermaki
« on: 13. March 2025, 21:08:07 »

Quote by JDoran:
I think Chandlermaki was referring to the tattoo, specifically to how it Shodan in the tattoo doesn't look like Shodan in the games, not comparing System Shock Remake to the original System Shock game.

And here I was thinking that was obvious!
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 13. March 2025, 13:02:16 »

Quote by Xkilljoy98:
I mean I won't deny that it differs in places (such as with the Groves or the Bridge), but to say it doesn't even resemble the original just isn't true. Regardless of what you think it's kind of impossible to deny that you can tell what it is supposed to be

I think Chandlermaki was referring to the tattoo, specifically to how it Shodan in the tattoo doesn't look like Shodan in the games, not comparing System Shock Remake to the original System Shock game.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 13. March 2025, 03:26:47 »

Quote by Xkilljoy98:
Regardless of what you think it's kind of impossible to deny that you can tell what it is supposed to be
Like how you could tell that Rise of Skywalker was supposed to be a Star Wars movie.
Posted by: Xkilljoy98
« on: 13. March 2025, 01:54:54 »

Quote by Chandlermaki:
All that effort, pain, and money, just to get something that doesn't even remotely resemble the source material.

Just... why?

I mean I won't deny that it differs in places (such as with the Groves or the Bridge), but to say it doesn't even resemble the original just isn't true. Regardless of what you think it's kind of impossible to deny that you can tell what it is supposed to be

Quote by unn_atropos:


Considering the game is under 10 gbs, I'd say that is worth more than 4k textures. That said some non-pixel graphics options would be nice but it isn't a deal breaker.
Posted by: WhyHelloThere
« on: 06. March 2025, 18:21:36 »

Quote by JDoran:
if this were a very subtle clue that NDS had obtained the rights to make System Shock 3, starting with Shodan being or becoming either organically human, or in a human looking robot body

Knowing NDS, they wouldn't do something like this. At least, from what I'm aware of. They don't seem that clever.

Of course, y'all have been here far longer than me, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted by: JDoran
« on: 06. March 2025, 14:27:46 »

Is this NDS' attempt at satire, or something? And if it is genuine, then I don't want to sound like Mr Kill-joy, but I'm pretty certain NDS' customers would have preferred NDS to spend the time fixing the bugs in SSR, SSEE and their other games.

In fact, I believe fans would rather have had a straight answer to "When will the Sin remake be available" than this 'news update' about the tattoos.

I can't comment on the tattoos themselves, as I've never liked tattoos or seen their appeal, but I do agree, surely a tattoo of Shodan's face should look like her face does iconicly in the games.

Then again, if this were a very subtle clue that NDS had obtained the rights to make System Shock 3, starting with Shodan being or becoming either organically human, or in a human looking robot body, then that would be  very interesting. But I have no faith that this is the case.
Posted by: unn_atropos
« on: 05. March 2025, 23:13:20 »

Cool. Why aren't the textures in the game that good?
Posted by: Chandlermaki
« on: 05. March 2025, 21:42:36 »

All that effort, pain, and money, just to get something that doesn't even remotely resemble the source material.

Just... why?
Posted by: voodoo47
« on: 05. March 2025, 20:56:56 »

hmm.. seems like it really is impossible to get Shodan's face right, no matter the artist.
Posted by: ZylonBane
« on: 05. March 2025, 18:45:34 »

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598858095/system-shock/posts/4329201
During the Kickstarter campaign for System Shock, we added - and reached - the Stretch Goal "team member gets a SHODAN tattoo {with pictures}".

Today, we wanted to share with you the fulfillment of that promise, with Nightdive founder Stephen Kick now rocking a permanent SHODAN sleeve courtesy of artist Terry Ribera at Remington Tattoo!
JFC, this just reinforces x10 everything I've always suspected about why the remake ended up with all the inane dudebro shit in it.

Hey, you know who didn't get full sleeve System Shock tattoos? Literally everyone on the original dev teams.

Maybe this kind of explains why the remake changed Diego from a cocky, impulsive young exec to a middle-aged dude, because Kick refused to see himself as Diego.
Posted by: sarge945
« on: 14. January 2025, 06:49:19 »

I would argue most companies start out that way, then as they become more successful and expand, their focus shifts to making money without regard for your customers.

Caring about your image and your customers is a necessity for small businesses, a few bad reviews can tank them. But when you're making money hand over fist from a huge worldwide customer base who are going to buy your stuff no matter how you treat them? It doesn't really matter much anymore at that point.

People wonder why EA continues to be shit, while endlessly buying EA games and giving them lots of money, despite being treated like shit. Hmmm.... I wonder why EA continues to be shit.

Night Dive probably doesn't have the luxury of treating people as badly as EA does, partly because NightDive has to often compete against source ports for old games, many of which do an excellent job, so they at least have to deliver SOMETHING of quality occasionally. But I have noticed their quality declining as they have gotten bigger and bigger.
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