System Shock 2 Enhanced Edition

[674206ed90a69icemann]

Delcos
are
you
really
here?

[674206ed90fcdvorob]

Nightdive's Blood remaster on the Kex engine was notably buggy and inaccurate on release (and while it's since improved, NDS no longer has the right to update it any further since they have to hand it off to Atari for legal reasons). In addition to the fact that this "Enhanced Edition" will offer virtually nothing to me as a non co-op player on Windows who uses New Dark mods, there's also a possibility that it will introduce new bugs and issues on release. NDS does good work on their remasters and rereleases overall, but this news holds nothing for me.

Checked all this stuff in official discord.

Almost everything in that video is fixed

Since that video came out, the game has gotten 3 major patches that have fixed the most major issues and the majority of the minor ones

Atari is assuming responsibility over the collection and that updates might be more sporadic, but NDS isn't "forbidden" from touching the game per se; they could just as easily be asked to make more patches, and I believe they're still in contact to possibly do that

[674206ed91262Chaos]

Hoping this will also mean a source code release of Dark with a nice fitting open license.

That would be awesome!!

[674206ed916b7JDoran]

Nightdive's Blood remaster on the Kex engine was notably buggy and inaccurate on release (and while it's since improved, NDS no longer has the right to update it any further since they have to hand it off to Atari for legal reasons).

Blimey! Does anyone know why Atari did this (and what they did, exactly)? It doesn't sound good. What bugs and problems are still in the final (for now...) version of Blood: Fresh Supply?

[674206ed91a5cprengle]

We want to also make sure there are proper source ports for Mac & Linux - the current solutions are not optimal

stephen, assuming this is actually you, i don't think a single fucking person on the face of the goddamn earth actually asked for a system shock 2 kex port. newdark is already fine (and a lot of the eccentricities of the dark engine really add to the charm of thief + ss2, not sure how those will be reimplemented), ss2's multiplayer was only added in because of "marketing concerns" (see: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131813/postmortem_irrational_games_.php?page=3) - it was never intended to be a major feature to begin with, and a quick search reveals that ss2 with newdark works perfectly in wine. there are already plenty of mods like the ss2 community patch which are very easy to install, not to mention a ton of free graphics replacers. i'm glad that night dive is at least putting some actual work into this project and that they're not just "stealing" free projects from modders but it just feels like money grubbing to me, i can't really see how system shock 2 could be improved upon enough within the context of a simple remaster to justify it 

[674206ed91c5bZylonBane]

Well, someone's feeling angry.

What I'd like to see is Night Dive provide SS2 with professionally upgraded AI models. The Rebirth mod proved that the engine can handle vastly higher AI poly counts, but a lot of people really didn't care for the aesthetic changes. So if they could do an upgrade job that stayed faithful to the original designs (like Valve's upgrade of the G-Man model from HL1 to HL2) I think that would be a real selling point for SS2:EE. Maybe even add model variations so every enemy isn't a perfect clone of each other.

This would fix SS2's single greatest visual weakness. Those low-poly models have been getting mocked practically since the day it was released.

[674206ed9204dChandlermaki]

Well, someone's feeling angry.

What I'd like to see is Night Dive provide SS2 with professionally upgraded AI models. The Rebirth mod proved that the engine can handle vastly higher AI poly counts, but a lot of people really didn't care for the aesthetic changes. So if they could do an upgrade job that stayed faithful to the original designs (like Valve's upgrade of the G-Man model from HL1 to HL2) I think that would be a real selling point for SS2:EE. Maybe even add model variations so every enemy isn't a perfect clone of each other.

This is one thing that came to mind for me as well.

[674206ed923d8icemann]

This would fix SS2's single greatest visual weakness. Those low-poly models have been getting mocked practically since the day it was released.

I must be the odd one out, as I prefer using the original models.

prengle: Keep it respectful.

[674206ed926c9ZylonBane]

I must be the odd one out, as I prefer using the original models.

These hypothetical higher-poly, higher-res texture,  faithfully designed replacement models don't even exist, so it's a bit nonsensical to say you prefer the originals.

[674206ed927b5icemann]

You knew what I meant. By original I mean the models that shipped with the game.

[674206ed92bd9voodoo47]

stephen, assuming this is actually you, i don't think a single fucking person on the face of the goddamn earth actually asked for a system shock 2 kex port.

yes, he is. and I can confirm that there are people who are genuinely hyped for modern MP, and ports to other systems and consoles. also, lets keep the references to lower intestines and reproductive system to a minimum, and by minimum, I mean none at all.

and yes, true to the original, higher poly AI models would be welcome - it's the one thing the modders did not provide.

[674206ed92f17Join2]

Isn't their initial release of SS2 (which if I recall is bundled with NewDark/KolyaTool and whatever else) already technically an "Enhanced Edition"? Oh well, more enhancements are good, providing they're actually enhancements.

What I want to see:

-Open, accessible (to mod) Shock 2.
-Mac and Linux support I suppose. I don't care but can't complain.
-Upscaled FMVs
-Expanded audio and graphics options etc.
-Controller support without ruining the original interface and relative control depth (it's possible and don't bother otherwise). I'm interested in getting non-pc gaming friends on board.
-Support for existing mods. Maybe even a continuation of some (e.g Tacticool).

What I dream to see:

-Redone models/skins/animations.
-UE4 Remake (if NightDive prove themselves to be competent, hardcore designers).
-Gameplay, misc. general design upgrades (if NightDive prove themselves to be competent, hardcore designers). Possible tasteful map refinements and expansions e.g BOTM, Where Am I? Shock 2 is a bit short for such an enjoyable game and an RPG, and those maps is where I'd first focus*. And by "refinement" I don't mean shit like removing the Botm teeth or making it notably easier either. Instead I'd make jump physics better and add a touch more platforming to earlier levels to ease people in and generally make things more diverse and exciting, say +3 moderate challenges.

Don't give a shit, and neither should anyone:

-Multiplayer. In fact removing it would be an enhancement for me, since we all know it's a cash grab that clashes with the original vision and results in some newcomers not experiencing real shock 2 because it simply isn't explained or explicitly advertised that singleplayer was irrational's vision.
-Accessibility options or changes that compromises the original vision

*Justification: Where Am I? is utterly wasted potential gameplay-wise and it's a huge shame. It's also hyperspace, so realistic scale concerns aren't a problem. Realism in general is less of a concern here (as we already can see in the level itself). Also Shodan's memories? Yet more potential.
Similar justifications for BotM expansion.

[674206ed93081voodoo47]

if you define EE as something that has received significant additions to core functionality (like the mouselook in SS1), then no, the current SS2 build is not enhanced - it plays just like vanilla, you just have no problems running it on a modern computer.

what is a significant addition? modern internet multiplayer would be a good example. or lets say, the addition of a deathmatch mode. or VR support.

as mentioned a couple of times, SS2 is actually quite easy to mod, so I don't really see how they could make it any easier (unless they would want to make new tools for AI mesh creation, for example), and unless they change the way how resources are loaded completely, most resource replacement mods will work right away.

[674206ed932a4Nameless Voice]

I'm just worried that this enhanced edition will compete with NewDark, leading to two completely different branches of the game, one with one set of features, the other with another set of features.

That in turn would lead to a lot of confused players who don't know which version to choose, lots of hassle for the Shock community with ensuring that mods are compatible with both versions, not to mention all the weird situations where a bug is fixed in NewDark but not in the enhanced edition, or a new feature that mods rely on is only present in one version or the other.
Just look at the documentation for NewDark - the amount of changes, bug fixes and new features in there is insane.  Is it even feasible for Night Dive's team to attempt to reproduce all of that?

I just don't see what possible benefit an enhanced edition that isn't NewDark would have to offset all of these negatives.


Also, I agree with ZylonBane - a better use of the time and money would be on hiring some good artists to make higher-definition but true-to-the-original replacements for the characters and other objects that the community lacks the resources to replace.

[674206ed936a9hemebond]

I'm just worried that this enhanced edition will compete with NewDark

Stephen has tried to contact the NewDark author specifically to prevent this but hasn't been able to.

[674206ed93824voodoo47]

I'm not too worried - it's not like Blood:FS caused a nuclear meltdown after colliding with NBlood and BloodGDX (and one could argue that with the release of NBlood, the KEX port was also completely redundant and unnecessary). most games that have their sources available do end up having a couple of forks, and while some chaos inevitably ensues, they manage to live without much trouble.

I'm thinking that will be the case here as well, KEX being favored by vanilla/MP people, and NewDark by mod guys and those who have old computers (remember, KEX is pretty harsh on the hardware).

[674206ed93ac6Olfred]

I can only speak for myself but I would like to have a working multiplayer in the game. Since the beginning it was always buggy and prone to break.
What I also would see as a big improvement would be proper skeletal animations without hardcoded bone setups. Possibly even with vertex weighting.

Wasn't Stephen going by Nyarlathotep?

[674206ed93d64JDoran]

Stephen,

As someone who plays a lot on consoles (especially since I sometimes work away from home, and it's easier to take a couple of consoles than my PC), I'd really love it if System Shock 1 and 2 were available on consoles, in the same state that the games are in now (well, with System Shock 1, I mean the EESP version, of course). If they were available on PSN and XBox Live for a decent price then I think they might be quite popular, especially with the console gamers who are always looking for new first person style action games.

Would that be easy to arrange? They wouldn't be huge sellers, of course, since they don't have the shiny graphics that sell games, but retro looking games are still reasonably popular on the consoles, both older games and newer, indie titles. The joypad controls would have to be well thought out, as Join2 says, and it would be a nice bonus if you could arrange with mod authors to include some mods with the games, but if Night Dive Studios could out these two games on consoles then it would be brilliant. And it would be nice for people like me, who honestly feel that the gaming horizon has never looked so bad (I don't think there's ever been a time when I've been looking forward to so few new games, almost nothing that's upcoming interests me, it's all boring open world slog-fests, or dumbed down I-want-to-be-a-movie type action games, or military first person shooters, etc).  It would make the wait for SSR more pleasant, and provide a little publicity for SSR (and SS2R ?) too. You could maybe market SS1 and 2 on PSN and XBox Live as being the classic games, presented here for those who want a taster for the "True, Twenty-First Century Incarnations of The Classic Cyberpunk Nightmare Series, System Shock, coming soon".

"Beware - Shodan is watching You".

Regarding SS2 multiplayer, I've never had any interest in that, so personally I'm indifferent about it. It might be fairly popular online, amongst console players, but if the console version didn't have it then I doubt many people who care, or even notice.

[674206ed93ed4ZylonBane]

As far as I'm concerned, the only significant gain to a new renderer would be if it supported realtime global shadow projection. Sure, normal maps, specular highlights, yadda yadda would be nice, but being able to see the long, flickering shadow of a monster inching toward you across the floor as it gets closer and closer to the corner you're hiding around... would just mesh perfectly with what Irrational was trying to achieve with SS2.

[674206ed944ecRoSoDude]

-Controller support without ruining the original interface and relative control depth (it's possible and don't bother otherwise). I'm interested in getting non-pc gaming friends on board.

There's already a Steam controller profile for SS2 with some specialized functions like variable gyroscopic leaning and a touchpad UI for weapon selection to supplant hotkeys (needs to be unified with the in-game aesthetic better). Some of this could be extended to gamepads more generally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L-kOQ_D4LM
EDIT: God, that thumbnail really exhibits why I don't care for Rebirth. SS2's origami monsters were never great, but never looked so garish to me. I'm usually against official rereleases making any significant changes to art or game design, but I have to second the suggestion for an optional do-over of the NPC models.

[674206ed94633voodoo47]

why would anyone want that is beyond my comprehension, but sure, why not.

[674206ed94746Chandlermaki]

In regards to multiplayer, while it's certainly not my thing when it comes to this game, I would like to see a more functional implementation. It can be super fun with a couple of friends from time to time, but even on a LAN it's incredibly unstable.

[674206ed94826voodoo47]

and it would be nice to be able to cast positive buffs onto your allies.

[674206ed94939ZylonBane]

I wonder if there's any chance of Night Dive recovering the original-quality cutscenes, or if those are lost forever.

Though granted, most of SS2's cutscenes are in-engine garbage, so full remakes would be even better.