System Shock 2 Enhanced Edition

[674247b828363icemann]

Wouldnt this be more of an issue with Thief than SS2 (if there was a Thief EE). Considering that all but 2 of the FMs for SS2 were released prior to NewDark. My one, Arborateum and all of Christine's for example were prior. Shocking Ruins, The UNN and return to the UNN were all prior.

To compare, since NewDark's release QUITE a few of the Thief FMs switched over. So from NewDark's release onward many were under that.

[674247b828580ZylonBane]

Dude what? Statistically speaking, nobody cares about SS2 FMs. That's why we've been mostly talking about mods instead. SS2 is all about the mods, and pretty much all of the popular ones require NewDark.

[674247b8286bcicemann]

Fair enough. For other games they refer to FMs as mods as well. So I when you guys said mods I was bundling them all together.

[674247b8287baZylonBane]

You know darn well that SS2 FM managers and mod managers are different things.

[674247b8289dbvoodoo47]

I think the only FM I have hard-switched to NewDark is the Minstrel, for the rest, extra goodies are provided in a patch form. so technically, they will work in their oldDark form, with all the bugs and issues that were present before the patching process started. this isn't a very big deal for Christine's stuff, but ugh, RttUNN is barely playable in its original form.

but yeah, SS2 FMs are not extremely important (their downloads are in hundreds, with the most popular mods going up to and above 100k).

[674247b828fafOlfred]

and I guess we also have the first negative effect of the KEX port - modders being drawn away from Dark. yeah, people creating only KEX compatible stuff is not that great.

It's not really like I am drawn away from Dark. More so that I am currently working on other things and before I finally would come around and work on it, the KEX release is probably already out and there are probably tools already available by then.
On the other hand, if the KEX port comes out as being superior I wouldn't know why you should stick to Dark.

[674247b82915fvoodoo47]

if we go by the BloodFS release, it will be a while until KEX gets where Dark currently is - so maybe somewhere further down the road, with the emphasis on the "maybe" part.

I wouldn't count on updated tools either - none were released for BloodFS so far (so you basically have to use the old DOS stuff, while avoiding doing things that KEX doesn't like, iirc), but maybe it will be different for EE. hard to tell.

[674247b829602pripyatbeast]

I just don't see how it can be compatible with anything but vanilla mods unless they perfectly reproduce a lot of very specific NewDark features. The material system, DMLs, subtitles, the altered MIS file format, Squirrel scripting, tons of bugfixes, etc. You'd need an upgraded DromEd as well.

I've been doing my absolute best to find someone from the NewDark project willing to talk to me because this is our biggest priority/concern. If we can collaborate and integrate NewDark with our plans there will be zero issue with mod/fm compatibility moving forward. We want ss2 to be as open and mod friendly as possible, and like ss1:ee we want to release the source code to ensure it remains that way.

The main issue with NewDark from a business perspective is a total lack of control/authorship. We ran into an issue over the last year where our Linux port ceased to function, mostly due to the emulator, but we felt helpless to address the issue. We couldn't go into the source and update it because we didn't have it. Not being able to provide support for our products is a big issue for us and we can't reasonably rely on an anonymous group of modders to take requests from the developer when something else inevitably breaks.

I greatly appreciate the feedback shared here, but if someone from NewDark can step up and message me I'd really appreciate it. I'm going to be completely upfront and transparent, we need help on this. The source we discovered is not complete, we're missing some libraries and if we have to reverse engineer them there will be serious discrepancies with NewDark.

If you work on NewDark PM me, please.

[674247b82976avoodoo47]

just to make sure everyone is aware, pripyatbeast = Stephen Kick, NDS.

I was really hoping you guys have managed to get in touch with that ex dev who handed over the complete source to Eidos circa 2010 and recover whatever he had, but looks like that package is lost forever.

yeah, this won't be easy with just the bits that are currently available, and all we can offer here is helping out with testing (I'm pretty confident in our ability to find all the anomalies, discrepancies and outright bugs that the new version might have), and perhaps some hammering on mods and fan missions to make them work in the KEX environment, I'm afraid.

[674247b829931Hikari]

I really wish the people working on NewDark would come forward. At first I could see wanting to keep anonymous; cover yur own back to keep from getting sued into oblivion. Now? For NightDive it is better from a support standpoint to do an engine change based on incomplete code.

I'm not sure what else we can say at this point. I know I sure as hell don't have much else to contribute beyond 'guys, archive. EVERYTHING. Personal backups, contacting the internet archive to hold private non-public-facing backups (though I would love public facing backups of interviews and discussions and the like so there is a sense of 'why these choices were made.)

Beyond that? I haven't had much to say beyond what I've already said except I hope this works out, and I am going to put money down when this hits steam/gog/etc.

[674247b829a77Hikari]

One thing I kinda would like but this is more 'I know it's an exploit but I find it funny' is being able to carry stuff out of the tutorial booths. Maybe make it a 'single trip' sort of thing instead of 'oh hey I left the tutorial with a perfect grade pistol, a couple thousand rounds of ammo, several hundred med hypos, and a basketball.'

Any other requests such as 'make the OS upgrade choices feel more like I'm haing to give one thing up for another instead of 'this being clearly the best set of options' is more for modders to sort out.

[674247b829e4epripyatbeast]

yeah, this won't be easy with just the bits that are currently available, and all we can offer here is helping out with testing (I'm pretty confident in our ability to find all the anomalies, discrepancies and outright bugs that the new version might have), and perhaps some hammering on mods and fan missions to make them work in the KEX environment, I'm afraid.

If we have to take that route (which I'd prefer not to) we'll be sure to throw the builds up on Steam in a beta depot for everyone to try out and provide feedback. I really appreciate your willingness to help.

[674247b82a1ebJDoran]

"So what's enhanced about this new Enhanced Edition?"
"Well, a lot of mods don't work."

They should call it "System Shock 2 - B.F.G. Edition".

Also, they should massively ramp up the amount of ammunition you can find and carry so as to destroy any semblance of rationing your ammunition, make the cut-scenes unskippable, add hard-coded checkpoint saves that occur halfway down a corridor or in a room where combat can be taking place at that point  (don't you dare put the check-points somewhere sensible, such as immediately after a successful boss-battle, or when you enter a new area), and the many other mystifying stupidities that id Software put in the B.F.G. release of Doom 3. I'll never know how they made even a quarter of the mistakes they made with that release.

[674247b82a6beMarvin]

[...] (I'm pretty confident in our ability to find all the anomalies, discrepancies and outright bugs that the new version might have)[...]

You cheeky bastard.

[674247b82b065Twist]

I've been doing my absolute best to find someone from the NewDark project willing to talk to me because this is our biggest priority/concern. If we can collaborate and integrate NewDark with our plans there will be zero issue with mod/fm compatibility moving forward. We want ss2 to be as open and mod friendly as possible, and like ss1:ee we want to release the source code to ensure it remains that way.

While I'm an inactive outsider nobody in this community, I can't help but point out what seems obvious to me (maybe I'm wrong as I haven't paid all that much attention).

Wouldn't the biggest inhibitor to your getting Le Corbeau or whomever to speak with you directly be... Thief? As I understand it, the Dark Engine was just as owned by Eidos as EA, and NewDark, from my limited understanding, uses pretty much the same executable for the Thief games as System Shock 2.

So it may be that Le Corbeau would be fine working with you as the owner of the System Shock 2 IP, but he/she still risks getting screwed by Eidos/Squeenix/Whomever if he/she were to go public because Squeenix still owns the Thief IP. And technically, being two games, NewDark is two thirds Thief and only one third System Shock 2. 

(I know that's some goofy ridiculous ownership math, but I'm sure you get my point.)

And maybe Le Corbeau doesn't give a crap about any of this nonsense. 

[674247b82b69dhemebond]

So it may be that Le Corbeau would be fine working with you as the owner of the System Shock 2 IP, but he/she still risks getting screwed by Eidos/Squeenix/Whomever if he/she were to go public because Squeenix still owns the Thief IP.

Do they really need to dox themselves? Surely this is simply a case of just opening communication over email.

[674247b82b844Gawain]

If NDS can release the SS2 source code (it includes the dark engine) there shouldn't be any problems with Thief ownership?

[674247b82b956Hikari]

Shouldn't be. However when has a little thing like actual legality kept companies from employing the 'I have more money than you so I shall bur you in court costs' strategy?

[674247b82bb18Twist]

Well, to be clear: My general point is that there seems to be some reason Le Corbeau won't go public and/or won't communicate with NDS.

So if I were NDS and I really wanted to communicate with Le Corbeau, I would be brainstorming, "What could that reason(s) be?" Then try to address/resolve those reasons.

Maybe Thief/Squeenix isn't the reason. But then what is it?

I could be completely wrong, but to me the elephant in the room is still Thief and Squeenix. To be honest, given how much code is shared between Thief 1/2 and System Shock 2, I wonder how Squeenix would really feel ("feel" -- ha!) about NDS going open source with the System Shock 2 code. If Stephen is still reading, maybe he can answer to that concern.

[674247b82bc8apripyatbeast]

I can understand why they'd want to stay anonymous if a lawsuit/litigation is their concern, but as the owner of the IP I can 100% guarantee that we'd never take action against any modder of the Shock games - With that said if Le Corbeau is looking for work I'd be a fool not to hire them. Almost all of the employees at Nightdive are people from the modding community.

To address Square/Squeenix we have a working relationship with them and it would be against their interests to start taking legal action against the mod community.

I really don't know what else I can say at this point to convince them, but if they reach out I'll put my promise in writing and indemnify them before we begin earnest discussions to make it official.

[674247b82bdd5Hikari]

Now that things are out on the table it really would be in their best interest to talk to you.

You hiring them in would honestly be an amazing capstone to the whole situation of Shock2's wild ride.

I don't want to be optimistic though. It's been a fair number of years and there's no information on who these people are. That alone is an achievement of sorts and is very telling given how the world is. Anyone have any ideas? Anyone speak french that can go to that board the first newdark patch was spotted on?

[674247b82befaJDoran]

Stephen, did you read my post about NDS hopefully releasing the two enhanced versions of the two System Shock games on consoles? Given how bereft the future is looking regarding the more intelligent action games, it would be great for these two games to see a new audience. I think they'd be pretty popular on PSN and XBox Live!

[674247b82c50cunn_atropos]

To address Square/Squeenix we have a working relationship with them and it would be against their interests to start taking legal action against the mod community.

"Oh, but they surely wouldn't!" doesn't sound very comforting.
I don't think they would pull a Axel Gembe scenario (though it would be ironically fitting considering System Shocks Intro), but Square/Squeenix do not have their laywers for fun and games. Would they even give something in writting, and what worth would that have?

[674247b82c83cvoodoo47]

make the OS upgrade choices feel more like I'm having to give one thing up for another

those are just gameplay tweaks, no problem doing them even in oldDark - they do not require any new functionality that would have to be coded into the engine.

basically, we should be talking about engine features here, like VR support and ragdoll physics, not tiny fixes that don't require any new functionality like making the worm guns deal more damage to rumblers.