System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[67424e00511a9youarelovingit]

ZylonBane
How so? Because animations would need to be edited? I imagine it would be difficult to do in Thief, since there are lot of NPC's who speak where player can see, but in SS2 human NPC's rarely speak face to face with the player, most of the time they do not speak where player can see at all. So there are only 2 or 3 instances where speech would need to be simulated. And all those instances have unique animations not used anywhere else. So editing them wouldn't effect anything else.

[67424e00513c4voodoo47]

everything you have mentioned sounds easy, but in fact isn't, and would be better off left to SS2R, imho.

[67424e00517f7JDoran]

For those who haven't seen we've posted a preview of SS2EE running in VR - https://twitter.com/NightdiveStudio/status/1348348791372480513

It wasn't something we were originally planning on, but the results have been very promising and it'll be a nice bonus for those who have a VR setup.

Wow! I don't yet have PC VR, but when I do upgrade my current setup, I will definitely be playing it. That means I will be buying both the Playstation and the PC versions (well worth it, though). It's actually pretty tragic that in the two decades since SS2's release it still hasn't been bettered t what it does. Prey 2017 came close in some ways, and even betters SS2 is some ways, but overall System Shock 2 is still king of it's game type.

It's impossible to adequately express the experience of virtual reality (when done right) to someone who has never tried it. When playing a first person game on a TV or monitor, for example, you never really 'feel' (in your heart and mind, I mean, not feel physically) that an enemy who is roughly your height in the game is actually your height. But in virtual reality, you do really feel that they are that big, and that they really are only a foot or two away from you, and it really does play on your unconscious, millions of years old, survival instincts, adding feelings of unease and danger that I've never felt in non-VR games.

System Shock 2 in VR will be amazing!

[67424e0051ac0endwars]

voodoo47
Most things s/he mentioned is in fact easy though. Making skins/textures for models is a trivial matter compared to most other things. Creating a female hybrid model wouldn't be too difficult, I could do it by heavily modifying the male hybrid model right now if you like.

DX11 support and normal map support would be difficult, but they have the source code and they are game developers, if anyone could do it, it is them.

Heck, I am playing SS2 with a dx11 wrapper as we speak and that one was developed by some random guy who liked coding. I would imagine being an active game developer involves more than that.

Lastly, the mouth animation thing... I have no idea how Dark engine works, so I can't really comment on that, but even if there are engine limitations like you said, they have the source code and they are developers. They can find a way.

I would say none of his/her suggestions are unreasonable.

[67424e0051d10Livo]

Apparently new enemy models are being created as per the first page of this thread, so perhaps the ancient model/animation  format system and the import/export tools are being upgraded to make it easier to get the new models ingame in SS2:EE? If so, perhaps Nightdive could implement a rudimentary skeletal animation system on the lines on the technical level akin to Half Life 1,  instead of the old plane based format?

Having even a simple HL1 setup, plus updated import/export model & animation tools of course, would make it far easier to modify & add custom models or animations into the game.

Also, for lip syncing characters, Half Life 1 has a rudimentary (but nice by 1998 standards) lip sync system with its skeletal animation, where a character's mouth will automatically move when playing ANY voice or sound files, as long as they're in the correct audio format. HL1's lip sync works based on the volume of the audio  from memory. For the purposes of SS2: EE, it'd be great, the game definitely doesn't need an elaborate full facial motion capture setup.

The only major barriers are that a) this would definitely break compatibility with both NewDark and OldDark and b) if the new models and animations are already working in SS2:EE, then I doubt Nightdive would be willing to delay their work by updating the engine with skeletal animation.

[67424e0051e9dHikari]

Except female corpses have similar jumpsuits to the male counterparts.

Frankly would be nice of the hybrids looked like they were wearing remains of uniforms as opposed to wife beater with blue jeans.

[67424e00521aaZylonBane]

Frankly would be nice of the hybrids looked like they were wearing remains of uniforms as opposed to wife beater with blue jeans.

The pipe hybrid, which is the only who who wears a "wife beater" is clearly wearing the remains of a standard crew uniform.

[67424e0052445Hikari]

The pipe hybrid, which is the only who who wears a "wife beater" is clearly wearing the remains of a standard crew uniform.

For all your talent Zylon. You are an incredibly smug bastard that seems to revel in it.

[67424e0052951prengle]

voicing my concerns without going ham:

• are any of the modders whose work is being included with this release being reimbursed with anything other than a steam key and a mention in the credits? i may be the odd one out but i find this skeevy considering that this is a paid release from a professional publisher - after a certain point, "thank u for ur support :3" starts to look a little flimsy. nightdive has already begun to acquire a reputation in some circles for half-baked remasters (blood fresh supply was mostly atari's fault, but still) and empty promises (it's been four and a half years since the ss1 remake kickstarter)... if the modders are ok with it then sure, but that doesn't make nightdive look much better 
• if the graphics mods are optional (and nightdive is making their own model replacement mod) then cool, but the scp (ss2 community patch) does make several gameplay changes. even if this is an integral part of ss2ee and it can't be disabled, i feel like these changes should be highlighted somewhere
• please continue to make the original non-kex version of ss2 available alongside the ss2ee, even if it's included as a bonus or something. i would love to see the original olddark release made easily available as well, and there are a fair number of people who would probably enjoy seeing it too
• what "source code" is actually being released - the original olddark release by looking glass and irrational, nightdive's reverse-engineered code, or the source code for this kex-based release? who exactly owns the rights to the dark engine itself?

i still haven't forgotten the freely available system shock portable being taken down so that nightdive's first version of ss1ee could be sold online with virtually the same features. the source code release softened the blow, but that was years afterward...

For all your talent Zylon. You are an incredibly smug bastard that seems to revel in it.

i cannot imagine a world without zylon snidely correcting people in ttlg-adjacent threads. it just wouldn't be the same.

[67424e0052fc2sarge945]

As a VR Developer, I have some questions about the VR work we have seen so far (the twitter video):

• In the video, the wrench speed seems to be tied to the controller movement. Is there anything in place to prevent the "swing wildly and at high speed to instakill everything" gameplay we see so frequently in VR games, due to controllers being nearly weightless and easy to swing around? Are you taking the Skyrim VR approach of "you can swing it as much as you want, but it will only do actual damage based on it's normal attack time" approach, or is there some other system you are using? The game is already heavily focused around melee weapons such as the wrench and the shard, and if players can swing them wildly without consequences, expect all the difficulty to go down the toilet, even on impossible. How are you handling things like the Smasher O/S Upgrade, as the player is not restricted to certain attack animations in VR. Will an overhead swing without the O/S upgrade simply do less damage?
• What considerations (if any) are being made for the interface? In the video it's displaying on a screen and using the default interface, however these sorts of interfaces do not port to VR well, either feeling like they are inside your eyes because of how close they are (very uncomfortable), or being obtrusive to the gameplay by constantly being in peripheral vision and fuzzy or difficult to see. Is there a new VR focused design incoming?
• How are things like inventory interactions being handled? Are we simply going to get a mouse cursor controlled via a laser pointer (or some equivalent), or is work being done to make the UI more VR friendly?
• Are we going to see any differences in mechanics in VR, such as a more in-depth weapon reloading system?
• Are any models being modified/updated to work properly in VR? The most important modifications here are models which do not have back sides. Many games have weapon models with holes in them on the "opposite side" to what the camera can see. I do not know if this is an issue in System Shock 2, but if it is, it will be obvious in VR to find these sorts of faults, as objects can be seen from many different angles.
• How are things like frobbing being handled? Lets say for example I want to charge all the items in my inventory at a charging station. Game game currently has no animations for frobbing. Would I simply touch the device to use it, or will there be some sort of handle/button/apparatus for me to use the machine?
• How are you going to handle things like mantling? This one is particularly difficult as it can be very hard to move the player without making them sick, especially in the vertical dimension.
• Speaking of movement, are you looking to implement smooth locomotion, teleporting, or some other sort of system? If you are going with smooth locolotion, do you have smoothing and other things implemented to prevent motion sickness? In the original game, the player falls over when they die, this is EXTREMELY likely to cause motion sickness. Will the camera simply hover in the air instead? (which is similar to other games like HL:Alyx)

Obviously we haven't seen much gameplay yet, and I am guessing it's nowhere near ready for release, but I am particularly skeptical of projects like this because of how often VR is tacked onto existing games with no consideration, and it is often a horrendously bad experience. Redesigning core game systems from the ground up for VR is going to take time, and I really hope NightDive has the resources to do it justice. Especially for a game like System Shock 2 where people like to keep it *mostly* authentic, because it's well respected as a game outright. Changing too many of the systems in VR might turn away people who are looking for "good old System Shock 2, but in VR", even if that's an impossible idea.

[67424e00534c8Kolya]

are any of the modders whose work is being included with this release being reimbursed with anything other than a steam key and a mention in the credits? i may be the odd one out but i find this skeevy considering that this is a paid release from a professional publisher

I'm less surprised with NightDive swooping in to gather the free work from this community for their next game release, than with how happily modders give away their work of passion to be sold. It's their decision of course, although I can't imagine self-exploitation was the goal when they started. 

[67424e00535c3Hikari]

Ok you actually have a point there.

[67424e0053727endwars]

I feel like you guys are on the wrong track.

Modders offer their work freely to NightDive, because their work was free for all to begin with. At least this way, it makes its way to the official release and improves the base game. An improved version game will be released with or without these mods, but without it, it just wont be as good.

Could NightDive offer more than just a SS2 key to these modders? Sure, but they are not obligated to do so. It is not like they are just grabbing their work without asking for permission first and I fully expect those who contributed will make it into the credits.

Additionally, as far as I know SS2EE is going to be free to SS2 owners anyway. People who are going to buy SS2 now would have had to pay the same amount anyway. From my point of view, it changes nothing.

[67424e005386dGawain]

Nice, ND has hired new "community manager"?

[67424e005397bendwars]

Yeah, sure. You are delusional.

My point being, they are asking for permission. No one is forcing you to give your mod to them. Blaming them for this is just pointless. I am just stating the facts as they are.

[67424e0053d10Kolya]

Modders offer their work freely to NightDive, because their work was free for all to begin with. At least this way, it makes its way to the official release and improves the base game.

Yeah, that's likely the view that lead most to agree. It's a common view in open source projects. Many companies rely on open source software to create their commercial products. Of course these companies often also support these open source projects, either financially or by contributing to the work. In my company I initiated an ongoing donation program for open source projects that we use. So I'm well aware of that.

It's still an uneasy compromise imo because companies aren't forced to contribute to the public good they take from in any way. It's an example of: costs are public but profit is private.
None of these mods would have been made if we all acted this way. There would be no forum, no community, no helping each other.  The motor that brought us here is public profit. Well that's my view anyway. You don't have to agree, but you benefit from it anyway.

[67424e0053e67Kolya]

And please don't just accuse users of being shills. There's a field at the end of your forum profile where you should enter if you work for a relevant company. AFAIK all NightDive employees use it. If you have reasonable suspicion that someone doesn't though they should, inform our staff and we will take care of it.

[67424e005405aStarspawn]

sarge945 raised some great points about the VR implementation
Though as long as it's all open-source, it can be improved by the community...granted it would be really really good if the base experience wasn't horrible
Also no need to reinvent wheels when plenty of VR games like Boneworks have already shown what does and doesn't work
Inventory is probably the aspect that might benefit from discussion though, I don't think many VR games have pulled them off well

[67424e00542cesarge945]

I don't think "it was free to begin with" is really a fair argument.

There are plenty of completely valid reasons why someone, especially a mod author, might want to avoid having their mod included, even if their mod is free anyway (and it would be good exposure). Some of them are likely against the idea on the whole, either because they don't like NightDive and don't want "a greedy corporation profiting off the passionate work of others", or because they feel like having a set of pre-included mods would damage the community of the game, because they may take attention away from similar mods, simply by virtue of them being preinstalled. I'm also sure there are some people who won't even know that mods are enabled.

Imagine an alternate universe where Rebirth is included for free in the game, and enabled by default. This is likely to result in a number of people thinking "the game has funny looking models", thinking it's a part of the base game. Even people who like Rebirth aren't being served either - if all they have used is the built-in mods, they may not even know about any potential alternatives, were they to be released. Simply by virtue of having to look externally, this could create a caste system of mods. I think the general attitude of most modders is that they are doing this for passion - but also because they want to be a part of the community around the game, building off each other, and working towards common goals. Having a pre-accepted list of mods sort of undermines that to a degree.

If the entire project ends up itself being part of the community, being largely open-source and the main thing you're paying for is the assets (think of a project like GZDoom), I think the whole "included mods" thing will be an easier pill to swallow for some people.

[67424e0054400voodoo47]

I see it like this, we allow NDS to use our stuff (mods/fixes), they allow us to use their stuff (SS2 source code release, SS2EE exclusive resources).

win-win?

[67424e00552cdendwars]

sarge945
You managed to miss my point entirely. What are you even talking about?

If a mod author don't want their mods included, they simply wouldn't give their permission to be included in the game. It is not like anyone is forcing them.

Your second argument is invalid as well. Models from the original game look funny to begin with, Rebirth models looking funny is irrelevant. Not to mention, they will not be included in this release as they are, which was confirmed pages ago. Mods being included would not in any way cause people to not seek out other mods, people who were going to mod this game will seek out mods and mod the game anyway and people who don't care about mods, couldn't be bothered regardless.

Additionally, SS2EE will not replace the original SS2 in your library. At least that wasn't the case with SS1. It is not like original will somehow disappear. Wanting this to be without any sort of mods/improvements/enhancements to graphics is unreasonable.

There is already a caste system of mods, there are good mods who are of high quality and faithful to the original, and there are bad mods, low quality and not resembling the original, at least not as much as it should. Good mods for SS2 come recommended, they are mostly extremely faithful to the original and usually there are no proper alternatives.

I am against Rebirth being included as is, but not because any of the reason you have listed, I am against it because it is of low quality and not in any way faithful to the original, it is bad and it makes SS2 look bad.

Don't misunderstand this though, it doesn't need to look exactly like the original to be faithful. Frankly original models are so low quality, they look melted. It only needed to capture the original intent of the devs, instead of hybrids looking like dracula and midwife looking like a.... robo stripper?

[67424e0055994ZylonBane]

I am against Rebirth being included as is, but not because any of the reason you have listed, I am against it because it is of low quality and not in any way faithful to the original, it is bad and it makes SS2 look bad.

Right, Rebirth was so "low quality" that it landed the creator a job at Arkane.

Rebirth is in fact very high quality. It has possibly the most detailed AI models ever created for the Dark Engine, with professional-quality texturing. The problem with Rebirth is that it's not sufficiently faithful to the original models. It's a high-quality, low-authenticity mod.

[67424e0056210endwars]

ZylonBane
Context, ZylonBane. You do realize that's not what I meant, right?

When I say quality mod, I don't mean model quality. Most detailed AI models ever created for the Dark Engine or not, they do not fit SS2. So my intent was not to say his work is shoddy, it was to say it is not authentic enough to fit into SS2EE.

[67424e0056b01pripyatbeast]

voicing my concerns without going ham:

• please continue to make the original non-kex version of ss2 available alongside the ss2ee, even if it's included as a bonus or something. i would love to see the original olddark release made easily available as well, and there are a fair number of people who would probably enjoy seeing it too
• what "source code" is actually being released - the original olddark release by looking glass and irrational, nightdive's reverse-engineered code, or the source code for this kex-based release? who exactly owns the rights to the dark engine itself?

i still haven't forgotten the freely available system shock portable being taken down so that nightdive's first version of ss1ee could be sold online with virtually the same features. the source code release softened the blow, but that was years afterward...

The original version of Shock 2 will always be available, it will most likely be bundled in with SS2EE as "SS2: Classic" which is what we did with the original.

The source code we will be releasing will be a combination of what we've reverse engineered and what other bits and pieces we've managed to acquire. Our KEX code will not be included.

System Shock Portable is not comparable to SS:EE in terms of a feature set. SS:EE is a source port using original code that took a significant amount of time and resources to develop which was also given away for free to owners of System Shock on Steam/GOG. Like you mentioned we also open sourced the code after the project was completed which has spawned additional campaigns, level editors and tools for the original.

It's worth noting that the original author of Portable was the lead developer on SS:EE and is also the lead on SS2:EE.

On another note, Zeph has reached out granting permission to use his Tacticool weapon mod. Thank you Zeph!

I also wanted to share a sneak peak at the updated character models we're putting together. This isn't final, but you can see that we're paying close attention to the silhouette, adding polygonal detail where necessary and smoothing out edge flow for better deformation. The textures are being repainted in the same hand painted style that will compliment the updated environment textures supplied by the community.

I will have more information on the VR version in the future!