System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[6742211b06430endwars]

pripyatbeast
That's beautiful!

I wish to make a few points about models though:

This might not be obvious to everyone, at least it wasn't to me. At first it looks like NPC's from portraits and regular NPC are supposed to be wearing differently styled uniforms, but then I realized all NPC's are supposed to be wearing the same short sleeved uniform with a V shaped collar. (I say V shaped collar because I am not sure what it is called) It is obvious when we look at the NPC portraits:

And then compare it to the original model:

It is stretched and low resolution, but to me it is obvious what the intent was. When you are creating the high poly crew models, you need to take more inspiration from the portraits.

[6742211b06a30Kolya]

It's worth noting that the original author of Portable was the lead developer on SS:EE and is also the lead on SS2:EE.

I think there's a little confusion here. Malba Tahan created the mouselook mod for System Shock, based on his reverse engineering work. (Before you hired him and he created SS:EE for you.)
His mouselook mod was one of several mods available in System Shock Portable which I created.
Remember, you sent Larry to tell me to take down System Shock Portable? Oh well, it's been a while.

[6742211b06e18DepravedDiptera]

The problem with Rebirth is that it's not sufficiently faithful to the original models. It's a high-quality, low-authenticity mod.

By low quality he means the models look bad. The quality you're referring to is graphics quality. Imo some of the designs are really ugly even if you separate them from SS2's original designs, specifically the hybrids.

Edit: To avoid being taken out of context I should specify that first of all this is my personal opinion, secondly not every single model looks ugly and when I say they look bad I mean I don't like the art style of the models, and finally I'm sure Cyberblutch has done great work and is an amazing artist, but these models are just not for me.

Edit2: Fixed my language up a bit to make my reply not come across rude

[6742211b07313endwars]

pripyatbeast
Please add separate fingers on that model. Spoon hands on a higher poly model doesn't look cool. Please have models that has real fingers, eyeballs and mouths. Please make it so that NPC's can use those mouths while talking. Dark engine only supports texture animation, but I know kex could do more.

Could we please please please have an optional player left arm like the below mod:

https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=9436.0

People dislike that mod because it uses the left arm from Doom 3, but I think it is pretty essential for immersion. So having an optional left arm that looks more like it belongs to SS2 (basically an arm thats wearing same clothes as the protagonist instead of being naked like Doom 3 arm) would be brilliant.

Having options like that we can turn on and off from the options menu would be amazing.

[6742211b07678pripyatbeast]

I think there's a little confusion here. Malba Tahan created the mouselook mod for System Shock, based on his reverse engineering work. (Before you hired him and he created SS:EE for you.)
His mouselook mod was one of several mods available in System Shock Portable which I created.
Remember, you sent Larry to tell me to take down System Shock Portable? Oh well, it's been a while.

I thought we talked to voodoo47 about putting portable back up? Did that not happen?

[6742211b07b14voodoo47]

SSPtool, which essentially is SSP just without the game data has been available pretty much since SSP had to be removed - we were talking about an updated version that would include SSEEclassic, but I also want to add the first stable Shockolate release to it. once it's out (soon.. hopefully?), I'll put everything together and update the SSP topic. anyway, K is correct there, Malba made the mouselook/Shlink mod, but SSP itself was put together and maintained by Kolya, something we perhaps shouldn't forget.

Please add a ton of stuff

overdoing things is exactly what I would recommend NOT doing - as mentioned, just making the new models easier on the eyes while preserving the overall aesthetics and style is probably the best thing to do (so no eyeballs, spiky hair or claws), and going all out is better left for SS2R. as for adding hands to the held weapon models - no strong feelings, but as long as they are visually consistent with the Tacticool weapons that already have them, then I guess I wouldn't really mind.

anyway, it's good to hear that Malba is still around, and even working on SS2EE. seeing Mercurius (Tacticool) responding is also nice.

the droid looks pretty alright - please note the new AI models should have the same sizes/proportions as vanilla if doable, to make sure there are as few problems with other mods as possible (I've actually noticed the hipoly protodroid available here is slightly shorter than vanilla, that is precisely what should be avoided).

[6742211b07c38Valet2]

So the lead programmer is Malba, not Le Corbeau. Would be cool to see in-dev streams with code analysis and stuff, hear some stories of where did the incomplete source was found, why is it so hard to acquire all the stuff for this specific game. There are so many questions waiting to be answered some day.

[6742211b0803fendwars]

Please make the game exactly the way I want.

See, I can also misquote you to make it seem like you are being unreasonable. But I don't do that, because it is not a nice thing to do. (Ok, I did it this time, but only to prove a point.)

Nothing I said was unreasonable. Left hand is something people would want, even you wouldn't mind it. It would be especially great for anyone who is new to SS2. I even asked it to be optional, even though in reality it is something that should be on by default.

Most models made after 2001 has distinct eyeballs and separate fingers. Since they are making the models from scratch, I don't see anything unreasonable there either.

As for mouth animation, it is something they should do if possible. Even some games that came out around the same time as SS2 had rudimentary mouth animation. (hint, HL1) It is a nessasary improvement, since it would make some scenes a lot less weird and more immersive.

I really don't think I am asking for a lot here. So I have no idea what you are refering to when so say "ton of stuff".

[6742211b081d8Nameless Voice]

Will the new models be compatible with the non-Enhanced version of the game, or are you planning to add a new model format for them?

The old Dark AI mesh format and tools can be...  difficult to work with.

[6742211b083a9voodoo47]

it's not really what I want, it's what is, according to my experience (doing my time here and also observing other projects), the best approach when overhauling old games.

as odd as it may sound, you doing a good job at that means most/a lot of people won't even notice you were there - take SCP and SHTUP for example, they pretty much just make the ugly vanish, and someone who hasn't played the game for a few years would possibly not even notice the mods unless they were shown vanilla right before or after the experience. SS2 cleaned up and playing smoothly is more preferable than SS2 with everything imaginable crammed in, imho, at least as far as SS2EE is concerned.

but it's up to NDS, of course, if they want to take a shot at the mouth animations, no complaints really.


and slight misquotes are perfectly fine.

[6742211b08595Alexander]

the conversation between sarge945 and Kolya on the subject of copyright is relevant. In a legal sense, everything is correct. Either NDV gets everything for free, or it is the right of the mod developer to receive a percentage of the "time and effort" spent on the mod.
and there will be that part of the developers who do not want to give the rights of their mods on a commercial basis. It looks like.. will
need to understand all sides.. Who wants to participate for free, who wants to receive a salary, and who does not want either one or the other. (p.s. auto-google translation)

[6742211b08a05endwars]

voodoo47
That wasn't a slight misquote. You quoted me, deleted everything I wrote and you wrote your own opinion as if that was what I was saying. Not cool.

I understand what you are saying, but this is going to be the Enhanced Edition, not "slightly-better-but-you-wouldn't-even-be-able-to-tell" edition. It should be at the very least improved enough that shortcomings of the original isn't visible anymore. Things I listed might not seem like shortcomings to you, but to the people who will buy the Enhanced Edition, they will be. Because if it was perfect to begin with, mods would be enough, making an Enhanced Edition would be unnecessary and no one would buy it. If it is exactly like the vanilla, you could just use vanilla with mods instead of buying it...

I wouldn't want any changes that takes away from the experience, but things like left hand, mouth animation and more detailed models would only serve to enhance the immersion, nothing more.

Even some of the other things suggested here, like female hybrids and whatnot is for that purpose. You know there are supposed to be female hybrids. There is solid proof there are supposed to be female hybrids in the game. But the model itself is missing from the game, either because of technical limitations (maybe there wasn't enough space in the disc, it was a real issue way back then) or maybe because they had to rush to release the game. Rectifying a small issue like that shouldn't be a big deal, especially since they are remaking the models. (My pistol female hybrid idea was pretty cool too.)

[6742211b090d7Kolya]

endwars As a reader it was clear to me that "Please add a ton of stuff" could not have been the original quote and must have been a critical interpretation/summary by voodoo47. And I could just click the link to see what you actually wrote.
Using the quote function this way is not very nice, but it's fairly common for practical reasons, ie not having reread a wall of text. The post reply function is a better alternative though for referring to a post without quoting its contents.


EDIT: The discussion about female hybrids was split off and can be found here.

[6742211b0957bZylonBane]

I hope the significant color change is just temporary. There's no good reason to make the protocol droids a different color in what's supposed to be a faithful model update.

[6742211b096daKolya]

"Who chose these colors? I don't like them one bit."

[6742211b09a42bigfatfrog605]

ZylonBane
Not only that but I feel like the original model gave off a more dirty, "lived in" feel. The model on the left almost looks like a drawing.

[6742211b09bc5ZylonBane]

The remake model is flesh-toned, which is creepy in a way I don't think Irrational intended.

[6742211b09e63Grosnus]

It's just a coincidence but the color reminds me of the original texture of Simon Pennington protocol droid.

[6742211b09fb0Kolya]

Computers and other electronics used to be colored in this beige/egg-shell color. And they tended to darken with age. (And of course it's all Germany's fault.)

[6742211b0a99aprengle]

The original version of Shock 2 will always be available, it will most likely be bundled in with SS2EE as "SS2: Classic" which is what we did with the original.

The source code we will be releasing will be a combination of what we've reverse engineered and what other bits and pieces we've managed to acquire. Our KEX code will not be included.

System Shock Portable is not comparable to SS:EE in terms of a feature set. SS:EE is a source port using original code that took a significant amount of time and resources to develop which was also given away for free to owners of System Shock on Steam/GOG. Like you mentioned we also open sourced the code after the project was completed which has spawned additional campaigns, level editors and tools for the original.

It's worth noting that the original author of Portable was the lead developer on SS:EE and is also the lead on SS2:EE.

On another note, Zeph has reached out granting permission to use his Tacticool weapon mod. Thank you Zeph!

I also wanted to share a sneak peak at the updated character models we're putting together. This isn't final, but you can see that we're paying close attention to the silhouette, adding polygonal detail where necessary and smoothing out edge flow for better deformation. The textures are being repainted in the same hand painted style that will compliment the updated environment textures supplied by the community.

I will have more information on the VR version in the future!

definitely more than i was expecting

as long as the original game isn't being completely buried in favor of the new enhanced edition then fine, i'm not big on the fact that someone has to pay extra for ss2ee if they only want the original version for whatever reason, but nightdive is far from the only publisher that has done this so whatever

i wasn't expecting a full dark engine source dump which honestly makes me more curious about the reverse engineering that's going on here. is it really just a bunch of dudes in the office using ghidra/ida pro and trying to make sense of the binaries included with the game? i'm not sure how this is being done without the partial dreamcast source code leak

to clear my position up, when ss1ee first released in 2015(?), to my recollection it was pretty much just system shock portable with some janky resolution upscaling and broken midi music. a few years later it became a kex port and eventually the mac version's source code was publicly released (and i am glad that it was), but when it launched in 2015 that certainly wasn't the case (and even then it was called the "enhanced edition"). i think multiple people have already said that kolya maintained ss1 portable and the mouselook mod was just one of several things included with it, so that shouldn't need to be elaborated on. i still can't get the midi music to sound right in the kex version.. maybe it just hates me

as far as the new droid goes, the mesh looks pretty spot-on but the new texture just looks... lifeless? i'm glad that this new texture is mostly faithful to vanilla ss2 but it looks like it's made out of plastic and it looks too bright, tan and cartoony compared to irrational's original texture - it suffers from the same issue that a lot of "hand painted" assets have in that it looks like it's been ripped out of fortnite. i think it could look much better if it was left in the oven a bit longer

i'll probably never be convinced that modders giving up their work to a publisher for free is a good thing but that's the way the industry works i guess 🥴

[6742211b0ab72Hikari]

Alright, so nothing insanely high-poly compared to the originals (zylon you know the engine inside and out feel free to call me on that one) but still higher fidelity.

Looking forward to this.

[6742211b0acdfNameless Voice]

IIRC, there are limits to how high-poly a model can be in the model file format which Dark uses, but we don't know if they're still using that format.

Having them look too high-poly would look out-of-place anyway, given the level of detail of the level terrain.

[6742211b0b34fsarge945]

ZylonBane
Not only that but I feel like the original model gave off a more dirty, "lived in" feel. The model on the left almost looks like a drawing.

You mean a *died in* feel? It is the Von Braun, after all

Computers and other electronics used to be colored in this beige/egg-shell color. And they tended to darken with age. (And of course it's all Germany's fault.)

Specifically German engineered to be as boring as possible.

[6742211b0b4f9voodoo47]

another good argument against overdoing the humanoid AIs is that making them too detailed will make it painfully obvious that one creature type uses just a single model/texture - one of the reasons the vanilla AIs work ok is that they are sufficiently low detailed for most people's brains to not register this. so if too much detail is added to the new model/texture, making a few variations and implementing randomization would probably be necessary to offset this, and I'm not sure whether that is advisable (again, redoing things in this way would be better off left for a full remake, imho). just making sure the new face textures are messed up/mutated enough would be preferable, I think.

basically, beware of feature creep.