is the system shock story staying power the biggest from all the FPSRPG games?

[674191676ef70notaavatar]

As ridiculous as the story is, does anyone feel like its the most interesting/believable out of all the games like deus ex, bioshock, etc?

Maybe its just the world news last few years, but IMO the DX series seems like completely ridiculous, even though its supposed to be like the best near future thing.

DX games all had this media centric theme to the story, but now it seems like the media is widely panned and scrutinized, so IMO the concepts of 3/4 DX games (IW excluded, since its basically hard scifi) seem much less plausible. Maybe I just grew to think that the media is totally getting ridiculous. When there was peace between all the super powers, the media control aspect, and the terrorism aspect seemed like really potent tools for control of governments. It seems that it gets to a point now where people don't care what some text or video says too much and it comes down to who has more weapons and technology.  There is so much momentum in world governments from literally all factors that the will IMO ends up being the same regardless of a few elections or whatever.

MKD and HR seems to have aged SO MUCH in the last few years. DX1 is better in this regard.

 The fact that we can develop AI's, that there is a problem with ethical constraints on AI, and that we are basically going towards very advanced universal manufacturing techniques and space technology pretty fast for some reason makes me think SS is kinda believable. The only thing I have problems with in SS2 is that basically it makes out that most of the upper leadership of the company is totally fanatical about the company, like 1960's IBM. I see alot of 'don't give a shit really' leadership in companies now. Like the fact that the upper management or whatever of Triopt actually cares about the discoveries, process, etc... stands out more to me then the psychic worm parasites (they are simply more realistic).... from experience I would expect them to treat the whole thing like Al Bundy on a all expenses paid cruise. Korenchkin seems like a fairly realistic character though.

why does the most advanced newest DX game feel so aged to me??

[674191676f1f6icemann]

I mean if you strip the first game down to it's core, it's 2001 a Space Odyssey (of an AI going bonkers and killing everyone) but in a cyberspace universe, with Star Trek influences. So I wouldn't call that original.

Second is a mix of Event Horizon, The Thing and Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

[674191676f3b6fox]

Out of all video games, Deus Ex predicted our current world the best. Its medley of conspiracy stories is partially ridiculous and it's easy to point out many details that don't hold up now but still felt almost prophetic in its prediction of the near future of the western world. It's losing staying power because of that. None of the System Shocks compare and they didn't try either.

[674191676f663Xkilljoy98]

I mean it is interesting/believable, but so are other games. I'd argue that stuff like Dues Ex, Bioshock, Etc are too. I mean some do have things exclusive to their worlds but they do a good job of explaining things to make it feel like a real place.

[674191676fb34Join2]

Out of all video games, Deus Ex predicted our current world the best. Its medley of conspiracy stories is partially ridiculous and it's easy to point out many details that don't hold up now but still felt almost prophetic in its prediction of the near future of the western world. It's losing staying power because of that. None of the System Shocks compare and they didn't try either.

No prophecies, just simply logical conclusions based on extrapolation of already documented events at the time. In 1907, 90% of Americans were self employed. In 2000, it was probably about 9%. Spitballing numbers. The American gov. already had a documented laundry list a mile long of absolutely sinister shit. Human history already had a laundry list two millenia and beyond long. There had been military leaks about a group named MJ12. And much more. What did Deus Ex otherwise predict? Gray death? Transgenics in the sewers? Self-aware AI? Bombing of the statue? West coast collapsing into the sea? All of that remains fictional. Otherwise the "writing" was pretty much on the wall already in 2000, they just had the perception to see it coming. George Carlin was already exposing back then. X-Files was a sensation. MiB movie. Conspiracy games that came before (Syphon Filter in 1998). Being conspiratorial-aware was kind of almost mainstream!

All this takes absolutely nothing away from the story though. It is extremely well written, conveyed, blended with gameplay perfectly, intelligent, and vital for spreading awareness of these matters. Most definitely my favorite video game story. And the most important video game story. Much of it isn't prophetic or esoteric except some very core themes, those being the most important of all (Population control, shadow govs, weakening individuals and strengthening themselves). This was still evident in 2000 though, so not prophetic, but most definitely esoteric yes. The common man would wave it off for sure. Lots of sheep.

Twin tower skybox coincidence is quite whack though! But it makes sense. They stood taller than the other buildings by quite some margin and texture dimensions in the unreal engine could only be to the power of two matching on both axes. I would imagine most games in 1999 with a NYC sky box would not have been able to feature it in one texture while having the rest of the buildings look proportional. Could be made its own texture and slapped in there though, just not worth the effort at all, that would be wasted time. An Interesting coincidence, nothing more.

[674191676ff34Join2]

DX games rediculous.

Dude. There is only one Deus Ex game. IW is a sellout. HR and MD are kind of mid all-around, as well as scared or incapable of going deep.
In terms of gameplay, story, real world relevance, lasting impact, intelligent writing and much more, none of the three quite cut it.

Yeah many people don't trust the media one bit anymore, but there is still plenty listening unfortunately. It is the primary tool of propaganda and it is probably not going away. Ever.
Also...it's just changing form. Manipulation of online information & media is its evolution. Better quit the internet sooner rather than later. You will be able to trust absolutely nothing that's not a obscure website forum post. Probably.

[6741916770089fox]

The erosion of trust is indeed one of the major problems these days and it's not adding resilience but acts as a catalyst to the other big issues of modern  (semi-democratic) societies. Technology is going to further amplify this to nightmarish levels very soon.

[67419167703c7icemann]

Dude. There is only one Deus Ex game. IW is a sellout. HR and MD are kind of mid all-around, as well as scared or incapable of going deep.
In terms of gameplay, story, real world relevance, lasting impact, intelligent writing and much more, none of the three quite cut it.

HR I quite enjoyed, not counting the boss battles. MD was a mixed bag, though the last DLC "A Criminal Past" was pretty good.

[67419167706f7Join2]

Yeah but you also enjoyed Bioshock, so you will enjoy anything!

I enjoyed HR/MD too, but 7.5/10 level of enjoyment and investment. Decent, but not belonging in any halls of prestige.

[6741916770956icemann]

Yeah but you also enjoyed Bioshock, so you will enjoy anything!

That's a stupid and unintelligent comment. Just because someone likes a game you hate, doesn't mean that at all. Grow up.

I hate / dislike many games. Not a huge fan of SSR for example. Command and Conquer 4 I hate with a PASSION. E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy which seems to get a lot of love, I can't stand. Nothing but a glorified Half-Life 2 mod to me.

[6741916770dfdfox]

What did Deus Ex otherwise predict? Gray death? Transgenics in the sewers? Self-aware AI? Bombing of the statue? West coast collapsing into the sea? All of that remains fictional. Otherwise the "writing" was pretty much on the wall already in 2000, they just had the perception to see it coming.

Yes , the writing was on the wall already and maybe the word prophetic is over-selling it but my point was that this near future scenario from back then came closest to our current world/immediate future - out of all games I know. And this might cause it to lose some of its sci-fi staying power a bit. "You have reached your destination."

Also, personally I more than once felt reminded of the Grey Death plotline during the COVID-pandemic. And I also feel very much reminded of the Morpheus AI when interacting with ChatGPT. And as for the sykbox-coincidence, of course I have heard about that before. But who would've thought that "USA vs terrorism" would become a major real life "plotline" so fast? One that would drag tired NWO-conspiracy tropes of all sorts back into the public consciousness and actually change a lot in terms of geo politics?

Oh and the west coast might still collapse into the sea at some point. We'll see about that.

No trangenics yet, I hope. Those also felt a bit silly in the game to me, actually.

[6741916772698Join2]

That's a stupid and unintelligent comment. Just because someone likes a game you hate, doesn't mean that at all. Grow up.

I stand by what I said. If that means we fall out, so be it. Bioshock love is indicative of low standards. You said it yourself, you grew up with 8 bit pixels and thus appreciate anything more technologically advanced. Good for you 👍
Personally, I'd rather play an 8-bit game if the execution is good. Namely, Mario Bros 3 in my eyes is FAR superior, less dumb, considerably more engaging and principled than Bioshock.

[67419167727affox]

"In my eyes" is such an important little phrase when talking about likes/dislikes.

[67419167728b8Join2]

Bioshock is still *measurably* retarded either way : ) The point of reference being System Shock 2 and hundreds of other classics. It is simply a sharp downgrade from old standards, offers very little, and holds your hand the entire way.

[67419167733a9Xkilljoy98]

Out of all video games, Deus Ex predicted our current world the best. Its medley of conspiracy stories is partially ridiculous and it's easy to point out many details that don't hold up now but still felt almost prophetic in its prediction of the near future of the western world. It's losing staying power because of that. None of the System Shocks compare and they didn't try either.

No prophecies, just simply logical conclusions based on extrapolation of already documented events at the time. In 1907, 90% of Americans were self employed. In 2000, it was probably about 9%. Spitballing numbers. The American gov. already had a documented laundry list a mile long of absolutely sinister shit. Human history already had a laundry list two millenia and beyond long. There had been military leaks about a group named MJ12. And much more. What did Deus Ex otherwise predict? Gray death? Transgenics in the sewers? Self-aware AI? Bombing of the statue? West coast collapsing into the sea? All of that remains fictional. Otherwise the "writing" was pretty much on the wall already in 2000, they just had the perception to see it coming. George Carlin was already exposing back then. X-Files was a sensation. MiB movie. Conspiracy games that came before (Syphon Filter in 1998). Being conspiratorial-aware was kind of almost mainstream......
......An Interesting coincidence, nothing more.

I mean not really, sure there are some things that are similar but that is the case in any sci-fi story. There is much more that is different than in the story. To consider it prophetic or "hitting the nail on the head" just isn't true at all. Any similarities are just coincidental and the comparisons still leave most if not everything wildly different given nothing is 1:1. The 9/11 thing is probably the only 1:1 similarity I would say.

Join2Also Bioshock isn't bad and offers a lot of good, grow up and stop hating on different opinions. You can't say that it is bad just because you dislike it, and you seem to dislike it for dumb reasons and to an unhealthy degree. The phrase "in my opinion" exists either way. It doesn't hold your hand any more than any other game, and even if it does who the fuck cares. Not every game needs to be SS2. Just say that it isn't for you and move on.

That's a stupid and unintelligent comment. Just because someone likes a game you hate, doesn't mean that at all. Grow up..

"In my eyes" is such an important little phrase when talking about likes/dislikes.

You will soon learn that they cannot grasp the concept of a different opinion and often do not know when to stop

[67419167734baJoin2]

Lol. Too much fun.

[67419167738danotaavatar]

The lack of transgenic animals is mostly due to the law. Its one of those things that you can prevent with legislation IMO. Plants are certainly there, I don't think its that much from lack of know how but actually morality. This is where bioshock made sense (totally unethical). We got lucky IMO with cartoons and such (bugs bunny, tom and jerry) that started to personify animals more to highlight their intelligence and people kind of see that there is more of a communication problem then anything.... so thankfully that sort of research gets banned.

IMO what made deus ex feel more 'odd' now is that it did not anticipate like social media and alternative news and stuff. Right now there is so many places to get information its hard to control. However , you can see a push against this, i.e. tik-tok ban.A more wide spread ban on social media would lead news and discussions back into the realm of news groups and stuff like that. DX imagined a world of extreme centralization, but we are seeing a trend of decentralization IMO, with things like solar panels (limits the power of a power distributor somewhat, cloud hosting, 3d printers (allows for greatly customized manufacturing for small entities) and global internet sat connections (starlink), very low cost global communications (even a face book account is SERIOUS power compared to what someone in 1970 could do) and even electric cars (while expensive you can charge a car on home solar). These are all disruptive tech that basically rent out or enable a person or small group to have the capabilities that would only be given to something like a large corporation that has lots of resources. All of these technologies are emerging but they give you at least a moderate ability to get away from mega corps to some degree (well not sats and cloud hosting, but you still get way more then you used to be able to).

Deus ex seems like a world where these disruptive 'enabling' technologies either got regulated, or were not invented (hard to imagine).. so they have some really advanced tech  only available to large entities and the power of a individual is very limited. 

But to get to that point where these technologies were not developed or that highly regulated IMO means either a SERIOUS PLOT-HOLE (what the HELL did people spend their time on instead?) or absolutely INSANE levels of thug government (people having these technologies improves their efficiency or capability so much that basically it IMO reduces the burden on government, for instance alot of taxes are paid by small business that manage to operate using these technologies that let them be profitable. That is, the government would be financially hitting themselves in the nuts with a sledge hammer to work on restricting these technologies... their super utilitarian.... I mean you could argue America could have gone under in the early 90's if not for wall streets use of global communications to open up new markets and investments to allow the USA to get enough money, credibility and advertising to stay afloat. 

Like, I have a extreme difficulty in figuring out what things would have to change to result in the world of deus ex. What technology would have to be invented or not invented and how could that happen.

System shock still seems plausible because the corporations are always trying to squeeze you with some kind of fees (HP and printers). I could imagine a functional world where some how the corporations strong arm people like Trioptimum. Its a long shot that society would not implode (at least, IMO, the date needs to be changed from 2077 to something like 4077, to allow about 2000 years time to bend people that much, but Deus Ex... hard to fathom.

the new DX games (HR and MKD) kinda make feel like that too, the blade runner problems (blade runner took place in 1997!!), that it makes sense maybe 1000 years from now.

I think its a consequence of moores law being applied to something other then processors (fails horribly)

The only thing I can think of, is that perhaps there was some Polio like super plague, I could see everyone being interested in cybernetics if say 15% of the population lost some limbs. I don't know what could possibly make average joe that interested in augmentation!!

[6741916773af2fox]

I agree that Eidos Montreal put way too much focus on the transhumanism / cyborg theme with HR and (to a slightly lesser degree) MD. From a game devs' standpoint, it's understandable why they wanted to emphasize the topic but they overshot considerably and the game world felt less credible for it. To be fair, prosthetic limbs, even neuro-interfaced ones, as well as exo-skeletons did become fairly advanced in the meantime and there is still potential for them to have a fairly big impact on mankind. Nothing like AI though and still seems quite far off from now.

I also agree that DX1 had some peculiar oversights in its vision of near-future tech and their impact on society (like smart phones social media apps not being omnipresent). But hey... they already had Roombas and I hear that holo-calls are becoming a thing with 5G now. Seems like a pretty useless gadget to me but we'll see about that.

As far as "disruptive 'enabling' technologies" and de-centralization goes. No, I don't see that happening at all. While there are some de-globalization efforts, mostly as a result of supply-chain vulnerabilities becoming undeniable during the pandemic and (ongoing and anticipated) military/economic conflicts, I absolutely don't think any of that is empowering individuals at all. If anything, we see a rise of authoritarian strong-man politicians, in tandem with multi-national corporations further growing in influence and power. Also more and more blatant corruption, which all goes hand in hand, of course.

[6741916773cf1notaavatar]

I think there is decentralization in some regards to corporations. I noticed a mega corporation throwing money at a problem often does not yield any solution. They learned to love hiring contract services and contract manufacturers and consultants. They basically bleed money for this, get some results and the level of secrecy is low (it maintains efficiency). This IMO empowers smaller businesses. I think there used to be some exotic capital equipment that basically confined everyone to a local vicinity. It's true for some services but ALOT of small places have some veery advanced capabilities now beyond the reach of the board of directors (they only interact with a account through a finance intermediary).

I think the amount of lynchpins went down. Alot of what the multinational corporates are now is just managers of a whole bunch of different subcontactors that don't have their own opinions or goals anymore, because they just don't know enough about whats going on, you get a aggregate decision based on advice and hearsay of a bunch of consultants and contractors (how much they complain about difficulty of work).

As a downside because of this, you could say there is less vision, and more people being bound by projections. This often does not end up making sense.

*projections made from aggregated diverse data that averages out to something that is often downright stupid

[6741916773decnotaavatar]

I thought the big computer error with crowdstrike was right on the mark for a "deus ex" style plot

[6741916773efficemann]

I mean, if you look at all the big hacks of user data from companies with bad security, which is then used to commit financial fraud on the victims, that's totally like something out of Deus Ex.

[674191677404dfox]

I have associated so many real life events with Deus Ex and Cyberpunk in recent years that I started to not do it anymore and have simply accepted that we are more or less living much of that shit now.

[674191677448csarge945]

I thought the big computer error with crowdstrike was right on the mark for a "deus ex" style plot

More likely is when we get the first inevitable catastrophe (10,000+ deaths) as a result of a software glitch. It's pretty much inevitable now, with how garbage most software is and how much of our infrastructure relies on it. That would make a perfect Deus Ex style plot, especially if a shadowy group used the chaos to seize power (and maybe made some of the software in the first place).

Reality really is scarier than fiction.