20 Years of System Shock

[6742556925856ZylonBane]

Crap, I forgot about this. Can't wait for the recording to go up.

[6742556925982Valet2]

I'll upload the recording with text chat as well as I did it with the previous session. It will take some time to render and upload.

[6742556925cd2Marvin]

Finally catching up on the playthrough. It's incredibly funny and informative - seems I missed half of the hidden doors on the medical level and I never even knew about double-clicking corpses multiple times go get the items. Strange that they made such a huge interface out of fear of players getting stuck but forgot to mention one of the most convenient inventory shortcuts.

Edit: Thankfully, I wasn't in the chat or my contribution would have looked like this:
LEAN! LEAN, GODAMNIT! Q AND E, YOU ALREADY USED IT SEVERAL TIMES! LEANING IS YOUR FRIEND! YOU CAN LEAN AROUND CORNERS TO AVOID ENEMY FIRE! DID I TELL YOU TO LEAN YET?

[674255692603dToxicFrog]

Finally catching up on the playthrough. It's incredibly funny and informative - seems I missed half of the hidden doors on the medical level and I never even knew about double-clicking corpses multiple times go get the items. Strange that they made such a huge interface out of fear of players getting stuck but forgot to mention one of the most convenient inventory shortcuts.

Yeah, I saw that for the first time on the stream too and was floored.

Edit: Thankfully, I wasn't in the chat or my contribution would have looked like this:
LEAN! LEAN, GODAMNIT! Q AND E, YOU ALREADY USED IT SEVERAL TIMES! LEANING IS YOUR FRIEND! YOU CAN LEAN AROUND CORNERS TO AVOID ENEMY FIRE! DID I TELL YOU TO LEAN YET?

You would have been in good company with the rest of us yelling YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY and STOP USING HOLLOWPOINT ON ROBOTS.

[6742556926146Marvin]

Also: SAVE! SAAAVE! GO BACK. YOU ACTUALLY DID NOT USE/GET/DESTROY THAT DOOR/EMAIL/PANEL/CAMERA. Ah well, he gets a little bit better with time. ^^

[674255692626bToxicFrog]

I have to say, it's kind of comforting to know that the developers are just as prone as I am to grabbing a grenade, arming it, and then flinging it violently into the ceiling and dying. When I did a playthrough for my wife that became a running joke.

[674255692636cMarvin]

Yeah, the best part is when he's trying to get rid of the massive robot force guarding the computers on the Science Deck. "Wait, do concussion grenades go around corners? *doubleclick* Oh ..."

[674255692646bmahk]

Ok guys, we're going to try to finish up this Sunday, 10/5, same bat time, same bat channel. 

I'll try to lean more, and not use hollow points on robots. 

[67425569265d8voodoo47]

we'll be there. kind of hoping you actually won't finish the game - I wouldn't mind being able to watch one more episode.

[67425569266dfMarvin]

Squee, I thought the second would have been the last one (I'm 4:30h in on the first one). This time I'm on vacation, though, so I'll actually be able to watch it live.

@mahk: Great. If not, I'll be there to remind you. :p

[6742556926970Kolya]

same bat time, same bat channel

Hooked on a feeeeling!




[batman.jpg expired]

[6742556926eaaMarvin]

BTW, mahk, you were commenting a lot about German censorship laws concerning SS1 and SS2. Most of that was explained in the chat, but if you didn't take a look at that yet or did not talk about it in a later episode, here's the gist, if you're interested (warning, long! --> Kolya, is there a hide function in the forum software?! Don't want to derail the thread):

First of all, censorship is forbidden in Germany. If you are wondering why the hell SS1 was not allowed to have drugs in it, that's because LGS/Origin censored its games themselves. Why? Because they couldn't have sold it so well if they did not remove the controversial content. In Germany, a game can either get a rating (0, 6, 12, 16, 18 years), it can get no rating at all (meaning it cannot be sold to people under 18 years) or it can be put on an index. There are two of those: One (so called "Liste A") means your game cannot be advertised publicly (that includes reviews, ads, ...) and it cannot be sold in the open. It can of course still be sold under-the-counter or online, anywhere. This is what would have happened to System Shock if you guys did not remove the hallucinogens in the first game or colored the blood puke-green in the second one. Needless to say, it has a terrible effect on sales.
There's also the possibility of your game being added to "Liste B"  (B for "Beschlagnahmt" = confiscated) but that is only possible for extremely violent, explicit content that sharply contradicts German law. Examples would be Manhunt, Postal, Condemned 1, KZ Simulator or any games containing swastikas/Nazi symbols as they are forbidden in Germany. Those games cannot be sold in Germany, but you can order them online and it is not illegal to possess them (I own Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Condemned, for example). Bottom line: Censoring is done by the developer or publisher, not by the German government. That might seem like hairsplitting, but it still holds true nonetheless.

Now to the actual rating system: Back in the days of SS1, following the releases of Doom and Mortal Kombat, a lot of people freaked out about video game violence  (think of the reactions to the Columbine shootings, only without the actual shootings, then add some German sensibilities about violence and war-like scenarios) and many games which would otherwise have been rated 16 or 18 were put one the index (Liste A). For a long time, that also included practically every FPS, so SS1 and SS2 suffered because of their more brutal contemporaries.
The ratings are given by a non-government agency called the USK which for the most part is funded by the industry itself. The two lists are organised by a government agency (formerly the BpjS, now the BpjM). Back in the 90s, ratings were not legally binding so publishers only had to fear being put on one of the lists (again, very dangerous if you were developing an FPS). When Germany had its own Columbine massacre (a shooting in a school in Erfurt, 2002, 17 people killed including the shooter), public opinion exploded again and the rating system was reformed. From then on, ratings were legally binding (cannot sell a game for 16 years old to a 15 year old person anymore) BUT, and this is important, after a game received any rating (from 0 to 18), it could not be put on one of the lists anymore.
Since then, the rating system has relaxed greatly when it comes to violence, which in turn lead to fewer games being put on the two lists. Today, only absurdly violent games or stuff containing Nazi imagery will be put on one of the two lists. The only discussion remaining now is if (or rather when) games with Nazi symbols should be allowed here. Movies, paintings or music which deals with the subject have always been perfectly fine (excluding hate-speech, like songs from far-right bands demanding to kill jews) because those things are deemed "art". Video games aren't, so they still get the stick in that regards which has caused some ruckus when the new Wolfenstein game was released recently. Sex, of course, has always been fine. That's the one advantage we Europeans have over you guys on the US.
The strictest laws in the first world in this regard today get executed in Australia, btw. No drugs, no headshots.

[6742556926fa6Koshirro]

You need to use an Earth-Shaker at least once

[67425569271beMarvin]

You need to use an Earth-Shaker at least once

Diego will get that treatment, I presume.

[67425569272d9Ndrake]

@Marvin Good summary imho. I think however that by US free speech standards what you are describing does constitute censorship. Not judging - just saying. [Edit: I've got Condemned in my Steam library does anyone have an idea what happens to that if I move to Germany?]

[6742556927439Kolya]

And by German law execution of prisoners is a major crime. Looking at one legal system through the lens of another is fun.

//Since you're not purchasing the game in Germany, most likely nothing will happen at all. If you plan to buy games while in Germany you will be subject to German law and will get cut versions if applicable. You might be able to fix that with Steam's customer support if your billing address is still in the US.

[6742556927575Ndrake]

That sounds dark. You mean the death penalty? I think it's a great idea to compare different legal systems to expose certain "blind spots". As for the issue of censorship (especially in regards to such things as denial of the Shoah [illegal in Germany and many EU countries - just to clarify]) both societies found their respective solutions which certainly are not interchangeable.

[674255692772amahk]

First of all, censorship is forbidden in Germany. If you are wondering why the hell SS1 was not allowed to have drugs in it, that's because LGS/Origin censored its games themselves. Why? Because they couldn't have sold it so well if they did not remove the controversial content. In Germany, a game can either get a rating (0, 6, 12, 16, 18 years), it can get no rating at all (meaning it cannot be sold to people under 18 years) or it can be put on an index. There are two of those: One (so called "Liste A") means your game cannot be advertised publicly (that includes reviews, ads, ...) and it cannot be sold in the open. It can of course still be sold under-the-counter or online, anywhere.

Perhaps this is a cultural or language disconnect.  Most Americans would argue that prohibiting someone from advertising a game based on its content is a form of censorship. 

[674255692785eKolya]

As often in law interests are weighed against each other and protection of minors comes out better in Germany than the interest of someone who wants to sell a game with drugs in it. You can call that censorship, but then you can't even say "fuck" in American media. Or see some nice boobs. If you do you may get a high MPAA rating and less people will see your film and department store chains won't sell it, etc. That's also censorship then, isn't it?

[6742556927988Yankee Clipper]

The MPAA rating system is voluntary and not mandated by law, so it isn't censorship of the governmental variety. But, the lockdown on broadcast television and radio is mandated by the government and is certainly censorship. That only applies to over the air broadcasts and not to cable/satellite only channels.

[6742556927ab3Kolya]

If theater owners all over the US enforce the rating, doesn't it still amount to "censorship"? As much as the prohibition of advertisement for rated games amounts to it, I would say. In both cases you can't make money with your product.
You see, we're each quick to put the fine points on the system we know and perceive the other as strange and limiting.

[6742556927bd3mahk]

I'm not arguing that the MPAA isn't also a form of censorship.  Just standing by my use of the term "censors" to describe the folks in Germany who decide whether or not you get to advertise your product based on its content. 

[6742556927d39Malba Tahan]

Wow, I'm obviously late, but it's really nice to know that there will be another gaming session with the developers. I couldn't watch it live, only on youtube (some parts of the first streaming and a few seconds from the second streaming). I couldn't image that the developers themselves knew about this community. I even shared the news about these gaming sessions on facebook, but most of my friends don't know about System Shock and didn't care about it ha ha. Do we have an opportunity to ask questions to the developers on next Sunday? Sorry if this a stupid question, but I didn't have enough time to read about everything that happened during the last few weeks

[67425569280e9Marvin]

Hey, valet, any ETA on the second video? I need my fix.

Perhaps this is a cultural or language disconnect.  Most Americans would argue that prohibiting someone from advertising a game based on its content is a form of censorship. 

I know that the eventual outcome might be perceived to be the same regardless of who actually changes the game, the important aspect of German law is that the government will only try to restrict or outright prevent selling a game to minors but it will never change the game itself. Advertisements are an important part of this process because in Germany, kids are deemed as much more susceptible to them. If that weren't the case, reviews and magazine ads would be left alone. I don't want to argue semantics here, but it's a cultural difference only. What counts as free speech and censorship in the US might not be perceived as such somewhere else (and vice versa) and the First Amendment is not the de-facto standard I guess.
All in all, the situation can most accurately be compared to a game getting an AO rating in the US. It's not outright forbidden to sell that stuff, but Walmart and other big chains won't touch it, meaning you can kiss your sales goodbye (well, on consoles at least). But I guess I don't have to explain that to a US citizen.

(@Ndrake: The answer to your question is "nothing".)