SCP Issue Reporting

[674232f383b30Marvin]

Good. Challenge that arises from the limitations of a game's controls is the worst possible form of challenge, and should be squashed without hesitation, always.

... what? I'm relatively sure the chute was designed to be that small, the controls have nothing to do with that. Staying on topic, if your goal is to keep the difficulty balanced, you should think of a different kind of challenge, then, instead of outright removing it.

[674232f383da5voodoo47]

if you are referring to the spawn stop after the brain is destroyed, that one's actually mine - killing the spawning once the brain is down is the logical thing to do, the logs hint this, and destroying the hive-mind to get rid of the drones is a standard sci-fi concept. I have seen people wondering whether something is broken at that point, as destroying the brain did nothing (apart from unblocking an escape route). and I agree with this, destroying the brain should have visible impact on the surroundings. if I could, I would add spasms, veins rupturing, and everything shaking, after all, you have just destroyed the Many, doing one of the two most significant things in the entire game.

arguably, this makes the game easier at that spot, but I see it as making it less annoying, just like with the jumping teeth puzzle, which is now much less annoying, and therefore, easier. same with that hybrid shotgun slug - playing the FMs, I have been reminded just how annoying that mechanics is. and annoying things have to go.

the grenades will be looked at (beta3). they are broken in vanilla, and sort of fixed in ADaoB. at the moment, SCP (beta1/2) uses the ADaoB setup, but this need to be redone properly.

[674232f38411bZylonBane]

... what? I'm relatively sure the chute was designed to be that small, the controls have nothing to do with that.

The controls have everything to do with accidentally flying into the air when a high-agility character ascends a ramp. That's something that simply wouldn't happen in real life because you'd have more precise control over your own feet. This bit of unrealism normally isn't a problem, but when it can get you killed, then it becomes a problem. I very much doubt Irrational intended as simple a task as dropping into a hole in the ground to be a challenge. You may as well argue that they intended getting into the MedSci maintenance access shaft to be a challenge too.

[674232f384439RocketMan]

There's another way to fix this.  Realistically, the hole left after the brain explodes wouldn't necessarily be perfectly circular and symmetric.  Therefore, make one side rise sharply and somewhat higher while the other side slopes gently and doesn't rise  as high.  Then overshooting shouldn't be a problem and it'll look a bit less like a low-polygon design.

I'll also re-iterate that making all the enemies docile is a perfectly consistent result of killing a hive mind and it makes a heck of a lot more sense than instantly killing everything like they all ran out of air or something.

[674232f384899Marvin]

The controls have everything to do with accidentally flying into the air when a high-agility character ascends a ramp. That's something that simply wouldn't happen in real life because you'd have more precise control over your own feet. This bit of unrealism normally isn't a problem, but when it can get you killed, then it becomes a problem. I very much doubt Irrational intended as simple a task as dropping into a hole in the ground to be a challenge. You may as well argue that they intended getting into the MedSci maintenance access shaft to be a challenge too.

You also cannot control momentum mid-jump, yet dozens of platformers rely on it to both to force the player to fine control his characeter and open up the game for new challengs. Realism is always a rather weak point to argue for in a videogame.
The maintenance shaft is a weak analogy since the player is not in any way under any pressure at that moment.


My point is not, and this goes too voodoo too, that these changes are a problem by themselves. I like the feeling of accomplishment one gets form killing the brain and all the critters with it, it would of course be nice to have finer control over the character and not have to worry about running into walls. It also makes sense to have no spawns on the Rickenbacker bridge and it would indeed be nice to have less ridiculous spawning in the eng2 cross section or other parts of the ship.
The problem is that, for whatever reason these changes were made, they also make the game easier. Not a lot, not enough to make SS2 a cakewalk, but enough to notice it. And right now there are no, or rather not enough, other changes that would compensate for that. Even worse, making further gameplay changes is probably outside of the current scope of SCP- for a good reason.

[674232f384ca8ZylonBane]

You also cannot control momentum mid-jump, yet dozens of platformers rely on it to both to force the player to fine control his characeter and open up the game for new challengs.

[674232f384e3cMarvin]

I like you too, ZB.

[674232f384fd3voodoo47]

the rick spawns were modified to only spawn spiders if memory serves, so those should spawn and bother you if you keep idling too much.

anyway, those places were made less annoying (or easier) for a reason - I have seen people giving up on the orig teeth puzzle, and in the brain chamber (also when trying to get to the nerve cluster in the irradiated water area. a hazard suit is spawned on easy/normal to make sure newbies will be able to get through there even when very low on supplies. they do have to find it first though). that is a bad thing, and should be handled appropriately.

remember, SS2 plays very differently if you are a veteran, that's why I use LPs to check where people have problems. anyway, places where we have made things easier are very few, so I don't think this is a big deal - or do you really miss the infinite stream of rumblers in the brain chamber that much? or falling down to your death from the half broken nerve ladders in the teeth chamber? sure, that IS part of the vanilla experience - just not a very good one, imho.

[674232f385303ZylonBane]

the rick spawns were modified to only spawn spiders if memory serves, so those should spawn and bother you if you keep idling too much.

The ecology was disabled entirely. Spiders only spawn if you get spotted by a security camera.

[674232f385411voodoo47]

ah, true. wasn't sure and didn't check the notes. the reasoning was that the player deserves a breather before launching into the Many, right? I think we should re-enable spider spawns for hard and impossible, that sounds like a good compromise.

[674232f385582Marvin]

Well, I never had a problem with the teeth puzzle but since it doesn't fit in with the rest of SS2 at all, I wouldn't be against changing it. The current form, at least to me, seems almost the same as the original. You can bypass it with save/load entirely, anyway. It's not like you have to have saved certain ressources or leveled up specific attributes to pull it off.

On another note: Fuck people who don't finish the game because of a stupid jump sequence that lasts a minute and fuck whiny LPers complaining about a game from ye olde times being too difficult. If you asked Nintendo to tone down their Virtual Console releases' difficulty level on a popular gaming forum, you'd get eaten alive. I don't know why it should be different for SS2. But yeah, keeping some things to Easy/Normal is probably the best compromise.

[674232f3856b4voodoo47]

I agree, and I certainly don't pay attention to people whining that they have to maintain their weapons and similar, but there are few instances of things that are just too annoying to be left alone. many, if not most people remember botm as "the place with the horrible teeth jumping puzzle". that is a dead giveaway that you need to fix the place up.

there is a difference between difficult and just plain stupid you know.

[674232f3857b8Marvin]

I remember BotM as "the level that's even more rushed than rick2".

The big question is "what to do instead"? Just removing them and adding a ladder feels pretty cheap but doing a whole new area like the one with the second nerve cluster would probably take ages.

[674232f385975voodoo47]

the ladders and nerve catwalks were set up poorly, resulting in many accidental deaths. now they are set up much better - you still have to jump around, but stupid accidents should be rare. observe (6:00) a player NOT getting annoyed to death by accidental slips;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAaIoAF8fK0

also, you get less nerves on hard/impossible, resulting in more jumping around. I'm pretty confident the teeth room overhaul was successful.

[674232f385a74Marvin]

Yeah, as mentioned, it felt more or less the same to me, I don't have any problem with what you did, so I'd call that a success, too.

[674232f385b56voodoo47]

that one's on ZB, actually.

[674232f385c29Marvin]

Good for him, then!

[674232f385f71Join2]

I like you too, ZB.

I like Jackie Chan very much.

The player physics in this game is god-awful. Not sure how the devs managed to mess that up. Should simply be a case of adding more player mass, and then increasing the velocity of various movement-based actions and other tweaks, but obviously I don't know the code or the reasoning of the original designer.

[674232f386282Join2]

the ladders and nerve catwalks were set up poorly, resulting in many accidental deaths. now they are set up much better - you still have to jump around, but stupid accidents should be rare. observe (6:00) a player NOT getting annoyed to death by accidental slips;

*Cynically clinically observes the dental work done.*

...I'll reserve judgement for my eventual SCP playthrough.

[674232f386391xdiesp]

Add enough water to the bottom to break the fall. Or tweak the gamesys for that level alone, so falling damage isn't as punishing. Personally, I completely cut jumping puzzles out of my BOTM.

[674232f3864c3voodoo47]

if you mean the teeth puzzle, yeah that has been fixed to (almost) perfection, no more tweaks are planned in the near future.

retiring the puzzle has been suggested, but has been deemed as too intrusive for the current "fix only what is necessary" SCP version, so the puzzle is staying for the moment. shouldn't be a big deal, right now, it requires one jump on easy/normal and two on hard/impossible. you need to be very clumsy to kill yourself doing that.

[674232f386697delamer]

Hi, newbie here.
Newbie as registered user here- I'm experienced enough in the game, and I'm watching this forum a few years already.
Just want to thank all community in the whole (and SCP devs personally) for your efforts in keeping this game alive, and to drop a few cents from my side.

My configuration:
-SS2 eng, latest GOG release
-SS2Tool-BETA-v.6.0.0.5, clean install
-SS2BlueModManager_1.121_Dev
-SCP beta 1
-Other mods, mentioned in SS2 Newbie Modding Guide,- in recommended load order.


1. Operations Sector C.
Mess Hall West, with two turrets, one of them must be  on the table. This turret fell through the table, just it's top is visible above the table, and shoots. It's across the wall from Mess Hall East, where Bronson's security team taking out some crew members.
2. From Readme.pdf: "Local pyro field no longer grants immunity to protocol droid explosions".
 Yes, it's true now. But pyro field still protecting me from droid's containers explosions So I can activate this field, come close to containers, and burn all this stuff with droids inside without any damage to my health. May be worth to be corrected.
That's all for now.
PS. If it's not too late, can I volunteer for beta 2 test? I just want to begin new game now.

[674232f3867d7voodoo47]

first one is already fixed in beta2, the second one is a slight can of worms and will be looked at later. beta2 is pretty much ready, and the changes are minimal (it's a maintenance release for beta1, nothing more), so just wait 'till it's out. should be just a couple of days.

[674232f3868cadelamer]

Thank you, I can endure a few days of waiting.