The Importance of Prone, Leaning & Crouching, and a suggestion for NightDive.

[6741d4245ed3bZylonBane]

Also it definitely is intuitive. I never really liked crouch-hold.

Hold-to-prone may seem intuitive, but in execution it would be mind-numbingly awful. It punishes players who don't want to go prone by slamming them to the ground when they accidentally hold the key too long, and it punishes players who DO want to go prone by inflicting an input delay on them. And yeah, prone is useless unless you modify the design to make it useful... which goes against the entire point of this project.

Join usss! just has no idea what the people who realize this are talking about.

[6741d4245eebevoodoo47]

no prone, yes leaning (and crouching) if you ask me. prone is only useful in games like Arma.

[6741d4245f306Join2]

I like the idea. Gameplay wise it would be nice to find some items under the furniture, or hide there, find secret passages...
Also it definitely is intuitive. I never really liked crouch-hold.

Yeah, I forgot that secret areas or general loot can be hidden in crafty places too with prone.

Hold-to-prone may seem intuitive, but in execution it would be mind-numbingly awful. It punishes players who don't want to go prone by slamming them to the ground when they accidentally hold the key too long, and it punishes players who DO want to go prone by inflicting an input delay on them. And yeah, prone is useless unless you modify the design to make it useful... which goes against the entire point of this project.

You're not as good at this as you think you are.

What a laughably poor defense. guess we shouldn't have jump input, or holster weapon, or anything that player may accidentally press or hold for too long which will punish them if not used correctly. Do you even want gameplay at all for that matter? If the player is holding the key down for too long that's on them. It's their mistake.
And no, prone is not useless just because you say it is (without any reasoning given either).

Here's the ultimatum: if prone goes, lean goes too. Of course I don't have the positioning to make that call but that's how it should be, as lean has less uses than prone in reality. How it really should be, is both stay, and they make them better. Hell even leaving them as-is would be better than removing them just because some fail to percieve the point (again).

[6741d4245f537Kolya]

I'm not sure about that one-key crouching and lying prone. As other have said, lying down is simply underused, yet.

Now to something else. Please ask a friend to stand in the middle of the room and grab you as soon as they can. Then start strafing around them to confuse their senses and their ability to attack you. You'll notice that you cannot strafe well very well in real life. Running sideways is fucking hard. And it doesn't stop anyone from attacking you in a second, even with just their hands.

Mirror's edge had some better fighting techniques up its sleeve than this stone age old FPS template. Mostly running towards someone and then some short quick time events for hand on hand combat. What would be a good way to translate that to gun combat?

If you see an enemy before they see you, you might get a short window where you can easily down them. Then both of you would very quickly take cover or drop to the ground (lie prone!). Otherwise the fight would be over in a second. If both find cover it may go on forever, unless someone comes up with a plan (retreat, grenade, use environment). If only one finds cover and the other lies down, he'll be dead soon.

[6741d4245f97eZylonBane]

What a laughably poor defense. guess we shouldn't have jump input, or holster weapon, or anything that player may accidentally press or hold for too long which will punish them if not used correctly.

Jumping and weapon holstering aren't secondary actions triggered by holding a primary action key, which is what was being discussed. If you don't think you can win this argument without moving the goalposts, clearly you recognize that you've lost it.

Here's the ultimatum: if prone goes, lean goes too. Of course I don't have the positioning to make that call but that's how it should be, as lean has less uses than prone in reality.

Video games aren't reality. In first-person video games, lean is inherently useful because eye-level walls are everywhere, so being able to peak around them without fully revealing/exposing yourself has inherent utility. Going prone, on the other hand, requires that utility be explicitly created for it, in the form of very low passageways, ground cover systems, loot hidden in floor-level crevices, etc.

You're clearly the one who isn't as good at this as you think you are.

[6741d4245fe0bJoin2]

As other have said, lying down is simply underused, yet.

It's underused in Shock because you're already battling convoluted controls that you subconsciously toss it to the side just to nail the damn basics, and to a lesser extent because the level design doesn't accommodate it well due to its simplistic geometry and barren environments. The former will be resolved, the latter may not be but that doesn't rule prone's worth out of the question.
Oh, and of course, it is also underutilized simply because it is a dedicated key that isn't in the immediate WASD area.

I'm disappointed in the community on this one. The save system I can understand for a variety of reasons, namely it was never in shock to begin with, but this? Prone was always a great feature, just underutilized by both the developers and the players. I will not accept that you want it gone.

Going prone, on the other hand, requires that utility be explicitly created for it, in the form of very low passageways, ground cover systems, loot hidden in floor-level crevices, etc.

No it doesn't, I already gave plenty of organic examples. though of course, making the effort to specifically enhance it in design would make it more worthwhile. And why shouldn't that be done anyway, exactly?

[6741d4245ff04The Many]

The Many are disappointed in you for not respecting their will.

[6741d4245fffbJoin2]

I killed the Many back in SS2 and I'm killing the Many again in this thread. Do not strip out good game design that didn't meet its true potential, instead enhance it, or even leave it as-is if we must. It was worth something.

[6741d42460394ZylonBane]

No it doesn't, I already gave plenty of organic examples.

Every example you've given is already something that can be done with crouching, just MOAR. This gets to the heart of why going prone is almost never implemented outside of military sims-- it's just exaggerated crouching. It isn't a unique ability, it's merely a variation on an already-existing one. This renders it not worth the UI complexity cost unless the game design needs it... which SS1 does not.

Even Looking Glass acknowledged how marginally useful going prone was when they left it out of Thief, a game that's even more methodical and slow-paced.

Then there's the simple fact that System Shock is infamous for how complex its controls are. You can bet that Night Dive has a whiteboard somewhere with "SIMPLIFY THE CONTROLS" writ large on it. There's no way in hell they're going to include any unnecessary complexity in the UI. They have a very strong financial incentive against doing so.

[6741d42460711Learonys]

I killed the Many back in SS2 and I'm killing the Many again in this thread. Do not strip out good game design that didn't meet its true potential, instead enhance it, or even leave it as-is if we must. It was worth something.

Do you by any chance have any other examples of "good game design" that never met it's true potential? If crouching and going prone is the only thing in this remaster that we are going to have to worry about, then we're all set! SS1 GOTY edition incoming, awwhhh yeah!

...A developer could litterly replace all med kits from the game and replace then with sugar and lemons, and create an intuitive system which requires you to gather tools and learn skills to make your proper lemonade and heal off that, because there's nothing better to wake up with than a good lemonade!

Litteraly anything in any game can be made important, or relevant. Anything can be given potential. That a overwhelming minority sees a great potential in a single feature of a game, and nobody else agrees with him, who would be correct in 9 out of 10 cases? But hey, don't get me wrong here, you could be a mastermind in the making and may have singlehandedly trumped the entire field of game developers, in which case, go ahead, make a video, visualise the thoughts stuck in your mind and convince Night Dive with it! If they don't agree either, you could still always make your own game, nobody's stopping you!

Do you now maybe understand how some of your points may stand out as illogical? Yes you make a point, prone, leaning, crouching all have their uses, but maybe, just maybe there are other things that can make this game great on it's own.

[6741d424608d5fox]

To me leaning in shooters rarely seemed more useful then strafing in and out of cover simply because you usually can't shoot from there and dumb as the enemy AI is most the the time, it doesn't really give you a stealth advantage either. But yes, there are those exceptions like Thief, where you actively try to avoid enemies but in System Shock, most of the times l want to kill them as soon as possible.

The Many will never be killed again.

[6741d42460b2fZylonBane]

To me leaning in shooters rarely seemed more useful then strafing in and out of cover simply because you usually can't shoot from there...

You must play some really terrible shooters if they're so poorly coded that you can't shoot from cover.

[6741d42460c40fox]

From the top of my head, I can't remember more then two games that let me shoot while leaning out of cover but a few where leaning means that you can't do anything but peak around. But I stopped paying much attention to it because strafing works just fine.

[6741d42460fb0Join2]

Wall of text

Are you kidding? Highlight where my arguments have been illogical. You've added nothing but baiting.

[6741d42461344Join2]

Every example you've given is already something that can be done with crouching, just MOAR. This gets to the heart of why going prone is almost never implemented outside of military sims-- it's just exaggerated crouching. It isn't a unique ability, it's merely a variation on an already-existing one. This renders it not worth the UI complexity cost unless the game design needs it... which SS1 does not.

Even Looking Glass acknowledged how marginally useful going prone was when they left it out of Thief, a game that's even more methodical and slow-paced.

Then there's the simple fact that System Shock is infamous for how complex its controls are. You can bet that Night Dive has a whiteboard somewhere with "SIMPLIFY THE CONTROLS" writ large on it. There's no way in hell they're going to include any unnecessary complexity in the UI. They have a very strong financial incentive against doing so.

Hold on, where does UI come into this? No UI rendering is needed in conjunction with prone or anything I've proposed here.
And yes, simplify the controls, that's exactly what I've suggested with the contextual system without stripping anything worthwhile out in the process.

[6741d4246168dZylonBane]

Do you even know what "UI" means?

[6741d424618cdJoin2]

My mistake, seeing "render" in the same sentence as "UI" subconsciously threw me off, plus UI & controls are usually referred to separately in game topics so that's what you come to expect.

Look, just stop. If prone is gone I'm going to be very disappointed, especially when it's pretty common in modern games (so therefore modern gamers will welcome it) and Shock was one of the few that gave birth to it. The system I suggested adds no notable complexity or convolution, again I cannot stress how intuitive and simple it is. If we're stripping stuff on the mere grounds that they add control complexity and aren't of the greatest of use then plenty other things in shock must go too.

We need a larger voting pool anyway to see what the general consensus is. Fox, myself, and Colonel SF are for prone. I'm sure there's plenty others in this community alone.
...not that I believe it is that relevant because the general consensus at large is Call of Duty and the like are the best the industry has to offer, plus most people here are simply missing the point in prone anyway.

[6741d424624e7Learonys]

Are you kidding? Highlight where my arguments have been illogical. You've added nothing but baiting.

I killed the Many back in SS2 and I'm killing the Many again in this thread.

Allright, enough joking here. What i find remarkable is how you managed to only replied to the second last sentence of my reply:

Do you now maybe understand how some of your points may stand out as illogical?

But managed to completely ignore the remaining 95% of my post which built up to this arguement? Sorry, but i can't take a person like you seriously if you cannot even reply to one of the most basic questions i asked, which was the very first thing i asked of you:

Do you by any chance have any other examples of "good game design" that never met it's true potential?

Why were you willing to throw off my reply to you as a

Wall of text

when it's pretty clear that you actually read all of it, and replied as if i was some kind of troll? Baiting? What are you talking about? Scared of nothing, maybe? Why should i reply to you if all i have to reply with is "are you kidding?", if you are not even willing to answer some simple questions i asked you before? Sorry, but to me you come over as highly hypocritical right now.

[6741d42462756Join2]

I did read your post, but I didn't deem it worthy of a lengthy response. Sorry, it isn't personal, your post is just highly off topic and/or tangential. You get personal for the length of one paragraph, crack a "joke" in another, and yet still in another, well, just look:

Do you by any chance have any other examples of "good game design" that never met it's true potential? If crouching and going prone is the only thing in this remaster that we are going to have to worry about, then we're all set! SS1 GOTY edition incoming, awwhhh yeah!

What do you want me to say to that? More importantly why should I reply to that, it doesn't add anything to the discussion. Did I ever imply that prone is all we should worry about? No. You're in a thread dedicated to prone so that's what the discussion is focused on. ...and you have the cheek to call me illogical.

This doesn't all mean you cannot crack jokes or attempt to mock me and such, just when you do don't expect a response.

[6741d42462b96Learonys]

What do you want me to say to that? Why should I reply to that? Did I ever imply that prone is all we should worry about? No. You're in a thread dedicated to prone so that's what the discussion is focused on.

Yet i've seen you stagnate numerous other threads to the point that they got split into two. Threads that were supposed to be about a subject as a whole.

I'm asking you this question because i want you, just like others in this forum thread, which is part of the process of being on forums, to engage in a different process of thinking with others. I'm gonna be honest here, I often view things from a "unique" perspective, and often don't understand it if it's explained to me in any other way. Call it part of my autism, but that isn't relevant. If you looked towards my post  from a more serious and neutral view, and actually tried to answer it, I hoped that you would realise that, maybe, the whole prone and leaning subject isn't that important. We are talking about a game in pre-alpha stage here. Feedback and speculation is great because it keeps us engaged and allows the developers to look at their games from different perspectives, just like how i tried to accomplish this with my post. But there is a point where it gets redundant. You just don't seem to understand this.

Instead, you did exactly what i was afraid of and treated my post as some kind of garbage. So i actually gave an example of how a seemingly irrelevant and gimmicky game concept could still come out as intuitive. But, once again, you ignored it, because you couldn't see the whole picture.

Just give it a rest, and move on.

[6741d42462f96Join2]

Yet i've seen you stagnate numerous other threads to the point that they got split into two. Threads that were supposed to be about a subject as a whole.

And? They split off and continued because my posts were deemed worthy of discussion. If I found your contributions there worthy to the topic, or even interesting despite the tangents, I would have addressed them, and maybe we would have split off once more. Not every sentence or even paragraph demands a response, but I'll still read them.

I'm gonna be honest here, I often view things from a "unique" perspective, and often don't understand it if it's explained to me in any other way. Call it part of my autism, but that isn't relevant.

I will keep that in mind and perhaps grant you leniency in the future.

Just give it a rest, and move on.

Never, Prone stays!

[6741d4246336cZylonBane]

The system I suggested adds no notable complexity or convolution, again I cannot stress how intuitive and simple it is.

You seem to have this persistent delusion that stressing things makes them true.

Hold-to-prone WOULD interfere because it would end up getting invoked accidentally more often than intentionally.

[6741d42463470Kolya]

[6741d424636adJoin2]

You seem to have this persistent delusion that stressing things makes them true.

Hold-to-prone WOULD interfere because it would end up getting invoked accidentally more often than intentionally.

Yes ZylonBane, players are too stupid to understand that holding a key down will produce a different result than just pressing it will, or simply cannot refrain from holding keys down. What are you like with weapons in Shock, do you fire all over the place wasting your ammo because you have no trigger control? It's a non-issue. It's all on the player, their mistake, just as accidentally pressing the wrong key is (which is a more likely occurrence, by the way, because keyboard design).

Let me spell it out for you how dense you are being: typing is contextual too:

Press A: A
Hold A: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Do you have trouble typing too? How many times have you accidentally held a key down in this very thread? I'd wager none unless you have some kind of condition. Players only hold keys down with intent, not by accident.