The Sound of System Shock

[674260ababc74Kolya]

The biggest upgrade between SS1 and SS2 was the sound imo. SS1 was a silent movie with bleeps and bloops interspersed. You could still clearly hear it's relation to early arcade games. Whereas SS2 really put you into that ship through excellent sound design.
Of course the graphics were closely related to that feeling, moving from garishly coloured piles of greebles to a sophisticated flat design.

I don't know if it was the low resolution but somehow Citadel always seemed like a dirty place of used tech to me.
SS2 was much cleaner and Star Trek like, reversing the historical development of these scifi design concepts.

[674260abac0eaZylonBane]

The biggest upgrade between SS1 and SS2 was the sound imo. SS1 was a silent movie with bleeps and bloops interspersed. You could still clearly hear it's relation to early arcade games.

If you compare the sounds of SS1's and SS2's doors, weapons, recharging and healing stations, etc, there really isn't a huge difference in the sound design. The problem with SS1's sound is that there isn't enough of it. No level ambients as you noted, and especially no footsteps, making every enemy a sneak attack master.

Also, SS1 does a terrible job of simulating audio propagation. A sound on the other side of three walls is just as loud as if you were standing right next to it. This is especially obnoxious on Medical because there's that one door that is constantly opening and closing.

Regarding the grubbiness of Citadel Station, I think it does have more junk laying around, and more damage to the terrain. I've been looking through the raw textures recently, and a significant percentage of the wall and floor textures have both damaged and undamaged versions. This is something that SS2 didn't do at all, relying entirely on decals instead to indicate terrain damage.

[674260abac567Marvin]

The biggest upgrade between SS1 and SS2 was the sound imo. SS1 was a silent movie with bleeps and bloops interspersed. You could still clearly hear it's relation to early arcade games. Whereas SS2 really put you into that ship through excellent sound design.
Of course the graphics were closely related to that feeling, moving from garishly coloured piles of greebles to a sophisticated flat design.

Well, it was 1994. What game had a technologically much more advanced sound design at that point? On top of that, the Dark Engine really upped the ante in this area. Having effects such as refraction/deflection and obfuscation coded directly in the engine is something that only became commonplace many years later. So it's no wonder SS2 feels so much better, it simply wasn't possible in SS1.

[674260abac772Kolya]

Yeah, I know that it wasn't possible. I'm just talking about the little differences? I mean, they got the same shit in SS2 that we got in SS1, but it's just ... SS2's a little different.

And I'm wondering how you would translate that SS1 feeling into a modern game. I mean obviously you won't go without at least some ambience sounds. But what does Citadel sound like? There's no precedence in the original. And you don't want to just open a can of generic scifi warble and drown the game in that shit, now do you?
 
So I was thinking what kind of effect this absence of sound has on you, when you play the game. And I don't know what it does to you, but to me? It feels dead. Lifeless, like a fucking cemetery. But that's not all! SS1 had some funky ass music playing along with it. And it sounded like someone was playing Beethoven on a steel guitar. Or a techno track in MIDI. It's the right music on the wrong instrument.

Now that's a disturbing mixture. So what do you do with that in a modern game? How do you create the same kind of feeling using ambience sounds and hifi music? At this point I point at the first Alice game which had music by Nine Inch Nails' Chris Vrenna. And he played that music on children's toys of the era. Of the real Alice Pleasance Liddle's era that is. The right music on wrong instruments can be so disturbing.

[674260abacb33RocketMan]

Chicajo did a pretty good remake of the level music... something like that might work out pretty good.  Personally, I have no problem with only ambient sounds.  As you pointed out, there weren't many of them and that might be ok for the exec level for example.  Maintenance could have a ton of noise in it easily.  Reactor similarly wouldn't sound dead.  You just have to find noises that make sense for that level.  They don't have to be obnoxious either.  Something subtle is fine as long as it's not 0dB dead air, which is artificial even in a real world quiet environment.

[674260abad019Marvin]

Yeah, I know that it wasn't possible. I'm just talking about the little differences? I mean, they got the same shit in SS2 that we got in SS1, but it's just ... SS2's a little different.

And I'm wondering how you would translate that SS1 feeling into a modern game. I mean obviously you won't go without at least some ambience sounds. But what does Citadel sound like? There's no precedence in the original. And you don't want to just open a can of generic scifi warble and drown the game in that shit, now do you?
 
So I was thinking what kind of effect this absence of sound has on you, when you play the game. And I don't know what it does to you, but to me? It feels dead. Lifeless, like a fucking cemetery. But that's not all! SS1 had some funky ass music playing along with it. And it sounded like someone was playing Beethoven on a steel guitar. Or a techno track in MIDI. It's the right music on the wrong instrument.

Now that's a disturbing mixture. So what do you do with that in a modern game? How do you create the same kind of feeling using ambience sounds and hifi music? At this point I point at the first Alice game which had music by Nine Inch Nails' Chris Vrenna. And he played that music on children's toys of the era. Of the real Alice Pleasance Liddle's era that is. The right music on wrong instruments can be so disturbing.

I don't really see a problem here. As RocketMan said, a modernized soundtrack like Chicajo's would work without really changing anything about the sound design. Frankly, I don't really see (or rather, hear) that much of a difference between both games. SS2 sounds sleeker with the soundtrack being less dominant and has more ambient noise but that's about it.
I wouldn't be surprised, nor would I be offended, if they simply axed the original soundtrack entirely and used an ambient sound canvas like Thief does. The main goal in my opinion is to translate rather than replicate SS1's design. Citadel still feeling deserted and creepy is much more important than recreating that exact "industrial techno music with negative space sound design" or whatever you want to call it.

[674260abad1d7Marvin]

Talking about the SS1 soundtrack reminds me about how much impact even changing your sound font or sound canvas can have on the game. Chances are I have a very different perception of how SS1 sounds simply because I picked a different sound emulation in DosBox or played a different version. Attached is an example of the reactor level during my most recent playthrough, and here is DosBox's general MIDI:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGq9px_cARs
And again on MacOS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfjIpc_Lbjk

It's like night and day.
[reactor.mp3 expired]

[674260abad5e7Kolya]

The main goal in my opinion is to translate rather than replicate SS1's design. Citadel still feeling deserted and creepy is much more important than recreating that exact "industrial techno music with negative space sound design" or whatever you want to call it.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not about what SS1 did or didn't do, it's about the effect that had on your perception of the game. That effect needs to be translated into a modern game with modern sound design. Putting some machine sounds into the reactor level sounds reasonable at first, but the effect would be very different.

I'm aware that different sound font make the music sound different, but not that much. It's still got that factory sound of drills and metal clanging.

//I split this topic from the dreaded prone discussion now.

[674260abad98dMarvin]

Putting some machine sounds into the reactor level sounds reasonable at first, but the effect would be very different.

That depends on what "putting some machine sounds" means exactly, but in general? I don't really think so. Different, yes, but not in how the atmosphere would be conveyed. Again, take ChildofKarras's Thief compilation soundtrack and listen to "The Haunted Cathedral" and "Return to the Cathedral". That's more or less exactly how Citadel should feel, barring differences in scenario, of course. And it's only ambiance, no soundtrack whatsoever.

[674260abadb0afox]

I want the doors to go “Hummmmmmmyummmmmmm ah!”.

Apart from that, some ubiquitous subbass space ship hum and the occasional beep would be enough to avoid any unwanted silence.

[674260abadbe3Marvin]

You monster.

[674260abadcfcZylonBane]

You want ambients? We got ambients: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6R1ZDskjCeBMomUGCtxXw

[674260abadfc0RocketMan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfjIpc_Lbjk

It's like night and day.

Shit...  I never heard that before and now I wish I'd played SS1 with a Mac (even though I hate Mac).

[674260abae177Hikari]

Is there any way at all to get the mac sound/textures into the PC version short of bashing together a source port engine?

I know nightdive did mention something about finding the source. Everything about the mac version feels Better than the PC version. Add in limit removing and other effects a source port of the engine can add, and it'd be interestingly new. A good 'then and now' compared to the remake.

[674260abae5acLearonys]

There's been another discussion about soundtrack preferences and design on the Otherside forums: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1097.0
 
Some really good comments were made there regarding the immersion which sound design gives.
I'll just quote one of my responses on that forum, that should show enough how i think about the sound design:

As I said elsewhere: soundtracks should establish & enhance the atmosphere, aid in telling the story, and also be fitting to the setting & gameplay. Not be merely ambient noise that barely makes itself known (unless it's fitting to do so). Bonus points for notable variety in genres & style whilst following these rules, much like System Shock 2 or Deus Ex.

I'm fine with ambient in moderation, but a pure ambient focus is underwhelming for me. There's only one game with an ambient-only soundtrack with composition that I am fond of and that is Arx Fatalis'. I don't know why that is, the sounds just resonate with me I guess, or other games that focus on ambiance do it wrong.

My thoughts exactly. What i liked about SS2's music especially is not only how good they were, but also how well they fitted with the current situation. It felt exciting when needed, desperate when needed, tense when it needed, and encouraging when it needed. SS1 did have awesome music, but did not fit the environment to this level in most cases.

Yes, it was awesome to enjoy such good music you wanted to jam to it but this just doesn't help immersion. Luckily, SS1 did not need music to feel immersed. At some points it used simple ambience and it simply worked so much better (people who recognise this soundtrack will know what i'm talking about): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICfIe7HjROQ.

Both kinds of music made the game feel awesome in it's unique, charming way. But i honestly wanted to hear more ambience in the sense of how you hear it in the audio logs in SS1. They were different on every level, but you usually couldn't listen to them to their full potential because the music was kind of in the way. Have a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E61uqe4EDU

[674260abae76acallum13117]

I second Learonys's pick of the maintenance deck ambiance. It sure sounds ugly when you play it on YouTube, but in-game, the volume was low enough that it was almost silent. Perfect. The track for the shuttle bays on the flight deck was also great - created a cavernous atmosphere.

Personally, I subscribe to the "music where appropriate, ambient otherwise" rule. I think the groves followed this rule perfectly: while you were exploring, the soundtrack was unobtrusive, and heightened the creepy biological atmosphere. When you got into combat, though, it picked up the pace and became a proper musical track. And of course, Cyberspace NEEDS funky music.

Conversely, I was totally turned off by the out-of-place technofunk of the medical deck. How was I supposed to get immersed at the beginning with that thing playing in the background?

[674260abae9faZylonBane]

How was I supposed to get immersed at the beginning with that thing playing in the background?

The same way everyone else did.

[674260abaeb12callum13117]

Heh, I know. And I did. I'm just saying the Med deck music wasn't very helpful for immersion. Especially when it's so thematically different from stuff like the massacre of survivors you discover on that deck.

[674260abaec55Learonys]

One of the great thing about games is that you don't actually need music to get a good product, even though it can help. The game by itself was good enough to be scary, even with all the guitars going wild. The in-game music however did take a more serious and appropiate tone the further you progressed. The point here is that if you  would start to think more deeply about the music, it suddendly felt weird. No matter how good it was, it did not fit the atmosphere of the game, and they simply clashed if you cared enough about it.

[674260abaed74WhyNott]

I remember that on my first SS play-through I messed up the audio configuration in dosbox and played the game with just the sound effects and no music. While some of the music sounds cool, I still think this is the more immersive and horror-ish way

[674260abaef18fox]

SS's not the kind of game that should play music all the time. You want to hear enemies and the environment as part of the gameplay.

For certain events, menues and/or cutscenes, I think my personal choice would lean a lot towards 'angular' stuff like this:
https://dreamcatalogue.bandcamp.com/album/tokyo-restricted-area

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a28tktV8ro

I've discovered this album just today but totally dig it. Not everything on it sounds like it would fit into a SS setting but if I had to find a soundtrack/score composer for a modern cyberpunk game, this guy would be among the first I'd ask.

[674260abaf34dZylonBane]

SS's not the kind of game that should play music all the time.

Well that explains why both System Shock games play music all the time.

[674260abaf53bfox]

No, just explains why I prefer playing with the music muted or very low and would hope for it being used sparingly in a new entry. In SS1 the music got really annoying at times.

[674260abaf7c0XKILLJOY98]

As far as soundtrack goes, they both have awesome soundtracks. Personally I prefer ss1's soundtrack over ss2's overall simply because in ss1 I like all of the tracks really well (my favorites being medical, research, executive, reactor, security, cyberspace, intro/outro) except for one (the maintenance level/level 3), in ss2 I like the soundtrack a lot as well but I like certain ones more than others (my favorites being med/sci 1, hydro 1, ops 2, command 3, and engineering). I tend to like the more techno music better than the more ambient music, but I suppose both are good (both types of music give different effects to different areas, setting the mood/tone differently depending on the music/track as well as the area/level. 

As far as sound design goes, both are pretty good, ss1 just sounds more dated/dosboxy due to the technology at the time, ss2 sounds a bit sleeker due to the more advanced technology compared to ss1. Overall both are good in both sound design and soundtrack/music, though they both are dated to a certain extent.