SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[67424df73a65aMarvin]

To quote myself.

The fuck are you talking about? I didn't call SS1 a RPG. Also, please don't dance around the issue, just answer my question: How are SS2 and F1 in the same genre?

[67424df73a825DKDArtagnan]

I don't generally fret about genres, but I'd say SS2 has a fair share of traditional RPG elements.

But pretending that character stats are all that different from weapon loadout is a bit silly.

In SS, you could definitely miss out on key weapons and have a big problem with certain segments. While SS2 was more pronounced in terms of what skills you invested in, the outcome was more or less the same.

In the end, you need to have the right tools for the job regardless of which game we're talking about.

[67424df73ab2fMarvin]

I don't generally fret about genres, but I'd say SS2 has a fair share of traditional RPG elements.

But pretending that character stats are all that different from weapon loadout is a bit silly.

Exactly.

[67424df73adfeicemann]

The fuck are you talking about?

Scroll up noob. Give a guy some time to edit his post. Geez :p.

[67424df73b2a1ThiefsieFool]

No, it isn't. SS2 has zero player agency, we talked about this before. If stats and skills made a game into an RPG, there wouldn't be any other genres left. To quote Chris Avellone:Or myself:

So Avellone's argument suggests that Bioshock, given its ending, is better at being an RPG than SS2, what a terrifying conclusion.

[67424df73b703Marvin]

Scroll up noob. Give a guy some time to edit his post. Geez :p.

Ok. Write me a PM when you edited all of your posts into a finished state.

So Avellone's argument suggests that Bioshock, given its ending, is better at being an RPG than SS2, what a terrifying conclusion.

No, he stated that System Shock 2 lacks an essential RPG element. He didn't mention BS. WTF are you talking about?!

[67424df73b83eicemann]

My edit was like 60 seconds after posting the original single sentence line of that post, your reply was nearly straight after I posted the original. This isn't irc, people do take their time with their posts.

[67424df73bc4bMarvin]

To quote myself. For all the things I said SS1 lacked, SS2 has. To be more accurate, SS2 and Fallout have skills and stats that you improve via points of one kind or another.

Daikatana has that. Warcraft 3 has that. Are those games RPGs? Yeah, robably not.

SS2 has RPG elements. Just like many, many other shooters out there, i.e. every multiplayer shooter.

My edit was like 60 seconds after posting the original single sentence line of that post, your reply was nearly straight after I posted the original.

Yes, but on a different page. Ok, sorry, I don't want to be a curmudgeon.

[67424df73bd75icemann]

I've not played Daikatana so can't speak on that game. Warcraft 3 has RPG elements, but is first and foremost a RTS.

If all you did was play as the heroes then sure that'd be a RPG. But you don't, so it's not. And no I'm not talking about MOBA's or however you spell it.

As you mentioned Daikatana - Far Cry 3 has quests, XP and upgradable abiltiies, but it's more a FPS with RPG elements.

[67424df73beb6DKDArtagnan]

Avellone is a decent writer, but I consider him among the most overrated people in the gaming industry.

For my part, the story and logs in SS1 were more than up to the task of delivering a satisfying tale full of mystery and excitement.

If there's one thing I worry about, it's Avellone going all verbose and pretentious on it - like he's done so many times before.

KotOR 2 remains one of the worst examples of trying to change something that doesn't need to be changed. Star Wars was always a romantic fantasy tale - and it was never meant to be taken too seriously. Avellone missed that completely.

[67424df73c1a9ThiefsieFool]

No, he stated that System Shock 2 lacks an essential RPG element. He didn't mention BS. WTF are you talking about?!

Do you read what you post here?

The ending was set; your path was set. If, at one point, there was a moment where you could've made one decision that changed the ending, that would've made it a barebones role-playing game, and a good one.

This is the one contrivance that you have in Bioshock with the gatherers, one silly decision to change the ending.

[67424df73c2acicemann]

What I want to know is why he (Avellone) is popping up on every damn Kickstarter these days.

[67424df73c4cdDKDArtagnan]

What I want to know is why he (Avellone) is popping up on every damn Kickstarter these days.

He likes attention and he's no longer at Obsidian would be my guess

[67424df73c823ZylonBane]

But pretending that character stats are all that different from weapon loadout is a bit silly.

Of course it's different. Weapon loadout can be changed at any time. Character stats are permanent decisions.

SS2 has experience points. It has upgradable character stats. Nearly everything your character can do is influenced by the upgrade choices you've made. Performance of technical tasks is based on character skill, not player skill. The way you play is strongly influenced by the build of your character. It's an RPG.

If you're one of those wonks who insists that an RPG must have a branching plot and dialog trees... well, you're wrong. Plain old point-and-click adventure games can have those. What makes an RPG an RPG is the character growth simulation. Everything else is secondary.

[67424df73cc1eDKDArtagnan]

Of course it's different. Weapon loadout can be changed at any time. Character stats are permanent decisions.

SS2 has experience points. It has upgradable character stats. Nearly everything your character can do is influenced by the upgrade choices you've made. Performance of technical tasks is based on character skill, not player skill. The way you play is strongly influenced by the build of your character. It's an RPG.

If you're one of those wonks who insists that an RPG must have a branching plot and dialog trees... well, you're wrong. Plain old point-and-click adventure games can have those. What makes an RPG an RPG is the character growth simulation. Everything else is secondary.

I'm talking about stats versus loadout when it comes to game balance, which is the only issue I can see with the RPG elements.

That's because I'm the sort of gamer who loves the strategy of creating a distinct or effective character - and I love challenging games where my choices matter.

Obviously, if you don't want that kind of experience - I can see why you'd be against enriching the game.

SS2 doesn't have experience points in the traditional sense, and you get the majority of them through obligatory tasks. They did that to ensure everyone could complete the game without too much of an issue.

Please don't assume anything about me - as I'm a complete stranger.

As I said, I don't fret about genres. Frankly, I don't really care what people call SS and SS2 in terms of genre.

What I DO care about is a rich and immersive experience - and I happen to think that  the RPG elements in SS2 added greatly to the formula. That said, I consider SS1 superior due to its non-linear level design and less contrived story.

But we're all different people who like different things for different reasons.

[67424df73cd53icemann]

Well SS2 has the non-linear aspect to a point. Though it's only at certain points. Like you can do Hydro or other decks first then the other, and you do need to go back to previously explored levels to do new tasks.

Less so on the second half of the game, and obviously not at all in the BOTM bits. I will certainly say that is to a far lesser extent than in SS1.

[67424df73d0f1ZylonBane]

SS2 doesn't have experience points in the traditional sense, and you get the majority of them through obligatory tasks.

They're points. You're rewarded them for exploration and task performance. You spend them on whatever you want. That's about as traditional as you can get.

Are you going to argue now that "real" RPGs must have grinding?

[67424df73d2aaVegoraptor]

Ladies, we are derailing once again. Anyway, I showed the Demo to a friend and his first reply was "This is more Deadspace than anything else", and the sad part is that he actually might be right come to think of it. He also finds it amusing that the Human Corpse is a higher tier than the Cyborg Enforcer. As for the forgettable orchestra bit, there is still hoping that they decide to only use it as a foundation for a more synthetic soundtrack. You wouldn't believe how epic distorted violins can be if played well.

[67424df73d53funn_atropos]

They just received the first half of their 900.000 goal.
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[67424df73d82bRocketMan]

Holy crap!

(How do you guys handle decimal points if you put them after every 3 digits too?)

[67424df73d97dNameless Voice]

It's inverted.  451.454,00

[67424df73dc77DKDArtagnan]

They're points. You're rewarded them for exploration and task performance. You spend them on whatever you want. That's about as traditional as you can get.

Are you going to argue now that "real" RPGs must have grinding?

I don't know how many RPGs you've played, but in 9 out of 10 - you get experience points for killing mobs. That's not the case here - and they're actually modules, not points, and they're for software and hardware upgrades.

So, no, not XP in the traditional sense - but similar.

I don't know why you're projecting the grinding nonsense, but I don't remember saying anything of the kind.

[67424df73df65fox]

Anyway, I showed the Demo to a friend and his first reply was "This is more Deadspace than anything else", and the sad part is that he actually might be right come to think of it.

Nope, still can't see it.  (And if anything, it would be the other way 'round.)

[67424df73e227Nameless Voice]

I don't know how many RPGs you've played, but in 9 out of 10 - you get experience points for killing mobs. That's not the case here - and they're actually modules, not points, and they're for software and hardware upgrades.

And those 1 in 10 are usually the excellent exceptions.