Recycler Rage!

[67425b4962857RoSoDude]

Okay, so I got the recycler in my first playthrough, partly because I had (foolishly, I guess) opted for the Repair skill in the beginning and it seemed appealing. I used it in the way I expect most would -- recycling resources that weren't useful for my build (psi hypos, ammo for weapons I wasn't using, etc), and I made almost no effort to scour previous levels for junk to recycle. I don't think this usage is degenerate at all, and it's a reward for investing into Repair and/or Hacking (depending on the Replicator you buy it from). The comparison point is the Molecular Transmutation psi discipline, which accomplishes the same effect (more potently with a higher Psi stat) albeit at a cost to psi. I think both add an interesting wrinkle to the nanite/cyber module economy in the game, as they allow players specializing in tech or psionics to get an edge in resources over someone with high stats and diverse weapon skills, who might be able to make use of a wider set of resources found in the levels.

I'd be hard pressed to argue that it strongly incentivizes going around and recycling every cigarette and potted plant, as the nanite yield for such behavior is so low. If a player does that, they're already going to be playing the game in a degenerate manner anyway, and there are plenty of ways to cheese the game if desired. Not saying it's a perfect mechanic, though -- I'd probably have removed the ability to recycle magazines and mugs, but they wanted that because the player might question it if they couldn't pick up or recycle them, I guess.

[67425b4962bd7Join2]

It's almost as if the thread title is mocking you for holding such a silly opinion.

If that is the case it's not very effective mocking. The "joke" is not relevant in any way.

"Such a silly opinion" is also wild hyperbole. You can find it disagreeable, however the observation that something that encourages extensive janitorial work may not be desired is not a wild one. Wrong, or even slightly silly, maybe. But extreme? No. Dumbo.

Nobody is confused.

You're on a incorrect streak, as that's plain false. Icemann clearly misinterpreted it.

[67425b4962d99Djant]

partly because I had (foolishly, I guess) opted for the Repair skill in the beginning and it seemed appealing. I used it in the way I expect most would -- recycling resources that weren't useful for my build (psi hypos, ammo for weapons I wasn't using, etc),

Exactly, that's the point of the recycler. It's a clever way to implement a "pawn shop" in a futuristic setting and give all the junk you collect some use regardless of playstyle.

That's why I'm not sold on the recycler grenades being a good replacement, since it's not so much pawn shopping as it is turning everything in a room into money using a limited resource. Sure it can be used to recycle useless ammo or supplies too, but it is far less convenient in that regard than the recycler.

@Marvin: Can you seriously say that the long research times for some items adds anything of value to the game? Or having to backtrack and keep throwing and picking up items? The idea behind the mechanic itself is alright but the implementation for it is fairly poor.

[67425b4963276RoSoDude]

Exactly, that's the point of the recycler. It's a clever way to implement a "pawn shop" in a futuristic setting and give all the junk you collect some use regardless of playstyle.

That's why I'm not sold on the recycler grenades being a good replacement, since it's not so much pawn shopping as it is turning everything in a room into money using a limited resource. Sure it can be used to recycle useless ammo or supplies too, but it is far less convenient in that regard than the recycler.

That was why I brought up these aspects, yeah. Recycler grenade fulfills quite a different purpose.

@Marvin: Can you seriously say that the long research times for some items adds anything of value to the game? Or having to backtrack and keep throwing and picking up items? The idea behind the mechanic itself is alright but the implementation for it is fairly poor.

Here's where I disagree with you and say the Research mechanic is pretty great. The long wait times are there so you don't want to stand around waiting for your research to finish in a Chemical storeroom. If all it took were 15 seconds of waiting, it'd make much more sense to wait in relative safety in the storeroom and do the inventory management ASAP. With a long research time, you're supposed to commit to researching the object and make your way to storerooms for the appropriate chemicals when you get the chance. I really enjoy the gameplay loop here, because it adds a small layer of management and gives me new things to do on various decks of the ship, making me path out efficient routes to complete research while going through the usual combat/looting/exploration to progress my objectives. It's one of those pieces that adds to the whole and makes Shock 2 a joy to play with all its systems tugging at you at once.

It's little things like this that make the experience feel more player-driven and dynamic. I had a few great moments between Hydroponics and Engineering getting ambushed by respawning enemies while going on a chemical/resupply run. The more that's stripped out, the more the course of gameplay becomes a basic combat/looting exercise and less something over which you can feel personally responsible.

[67425b49637a7Marvin]

@Marvin: Can you seriously say that the long research times for some items adds anything of value to the game? Or having to backtrack and keep throwing and picking up items? The idea behind the mechanic itself is alright but the implementation for it is fairly poor.

Compared to what? Instant gratification (pick up object, research done)? Active research (photography like in BioShock)? Both ideas are terrible for different reasons.

Of course you could improve some aspects, for example using a needed chemical directly within the game instead of having to pick it up in your inventory, which might be full at the time, and apply it there. GMDX adds such a feature to Deus Ex but I don't think it's possible with the Dark engine (@voodoo47 : Is this true?)

As for the time spent on research, having to go to different chemical storages as neither is fully equipped, having to manually assemble the correct chemicals: This is essential for making the player feel like she's actually performing research on an object. whereas the time investment makes the research award feel more "earned". It's an abstraction, ovbiously, but an effective one nonetheless. System Shock is supposed to be an immersive sim, not a Doom clone

[67425b496393evoodoo47]

consume item upon frob? probably doable for most items via scripts, but chemicals smell like trouble, as research is probably handled differently than soda and chips.

[67425b4963cb2ThiefsieFool]

I don't mind the research system but you can imagine it being streamlined without losing much by losing the chemicals and having different laboratories you have to visit to conduct research, Cryobiology, Nanofluidics, etc, for a new game.

During beta stages Bioshock had a research machine that you had to find and develop photos at for cash in order to get your research rewards, not a bad idea since at that point stations were more rare, hackable, and could sometimes be unpowered and become powered only with rare fuses, making the task of performing your research a real task you could undertake similar to SS2's task just without the chemical clutter. But I don't have to tell you how that game ended up.
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/BioShock_Removed_Content#Research_Machine

[67425b4963eefThiefsieFool]

consume item upon frob? probably doable for most items via scripts, but chemicals smell like trouble, as research is probably handled differently than soda and chips.

I'm pretty sure you would need some kind of script to do that, as an object's frob action is either Move or Script, and if you set it to Script for chemicals they would automatically try to apply to your research (99% sure), but you couldn't pick them up anymore.

So you'd need a script that tries to apply the chemical first to any running research, and moves it to your inventory if it can't find any.

[67425b49643d3JDoran]

I don't mind the research system but you can imagine it being streamlined without losing much by losing the chemicals and having different laboratories you have to visit to conduct research, Cryobiology, Nanofluidics, etc, for a new game.

During beta stages Bioshock had a research machine that you had to find and develop photos at for cash in order to get your research rewards, not a bad idea since at that point stations were more rare, hackable, and could sometimes be unpowered and become powered only with rare fuses, making the task of performing your research a real task you could undertake similar to SS2's task just without the chemical clutter. But I don't have to tell you how that game ended up.
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/BioShock_Removed_Content#Research_Machine

Aw, that would have been a great addition to Bioshock. It would really have added to the immersion of using the camera for research.

I've no doubt mentioned this before (it's one of my all time greatest game-related hates) but I HATE the fact that the Bioshock games were never made moddable. Look at the (best of the) mods made for Skyrim, the Half-Life games, the GTA 3 onward games, etc, and imagine how great Bioshock's fan-made mods could be. They could have transformed the games, giving us real RPG systems, more in-game locations so we could further explore Rapture, a real good/bad system with varied endings and in-game situations where your decisions and actions influence other characters for or against you, and if we Bioshock fans were very fortunate, then a group of talented modders made up of people from all over the world might have gotten together and spent maybe years creating a total revamp of the base game, that added new characters and quests, new game environments, new and improved gameplay mechanics, and incorporated the best of what was cut or not implemented in the original game (including showing you what happened to the Eve that the Little Sisters collected and took back with them into the hole in the wall, what a Big Daddy looked like minus his suit, who still ran the Little-Sisters-collecting-Eve system, etc).

The modders might have even added the brilliant suggestions from the blog post at "How I Would Have Ended BioShock" by Tom Francis

[67425b496450eRoSoDude]

Just to clarify, GMDX's use in-world action has you pressing the "fire weapon" key with your weapon holstered rather than the "frob" key, so there's no loss of functionality. I can't even remember if you can holster your weapon in SS2, so there's no obvious analogue.

[67425b49645f2voodoo47]

a weapon can be unequiped in SS2.

[67425b49647dfRoSoDude]

a weapon can be unequiped in SS2.

Well, that's fine, but it still isn't a good solution because in SS2, holstering your weapon requires three open inventory slots, so "fire" to use in-world doesn't actually remove the problem of inventory management. Heh.

[67425b4964e5aJoin2]

I've no doubt mentioned this before (it's one of my all time greatest game-related hates) but I HATE the fact that the Bioshock games were never made moddable.

That's actually an interesting thing to ponder. The vast majority of BS's problems could be addressed with relatively open mod-ability. The end result to make the game not crap would be quite a different game, but at least it could be something to point to the ignorant masses as an example of how it's done since System Shock 2 is too old, clunky and ugly for most apparently, and to salvage (to some extent) a poor game in the LGS FP/RPG genre.

Just to clarify, GMDX's use in-world action has you pressing the "fire weapon" key with your weapon holstered rather than the "frob" key, so there's no loss of functionality.

Arx Fatalis too used left click for in-world object use in the same vein, which is where the inspiration came from, and it's very, very handy. Arx Fatalis has the deepest simulated interactivity systems out of all these games, which I believe is an overlooked achievement of Arx's design.

[67425b4965048ThiefsieFool]

Bioshock is moddable if you are willing to go beastmode like me, but the delivery systems for the mods you make are too unfriendly for the average player, if someone wants to jump in and help me with that they are more than welcome. I really need to post what I have already anyway.

About the "use in-world", it seems I misunderstood, what about using Prey 2017's solution with a script somehow (hold down rightclick to consume an in-world object right away), make it so on frob certain objects will run a script instead of moving to inventory immediately and will start checking if the player is still holding down the use button, if they hold it down for long enough the object should be consumed, if they don't then the object will get moved to inventory.

[67425b4965154voodoo47]

BioSecMod? yes please.

[67425b49655c3Marvin]

About the "use in-world", it seems I misunderstood, what about using Prey 2017's solution with a script somehow (hold down rightclick to consume an in-world object right away), make it so on frob certain objects will run a script instead of moving to inventory immediately and will start checking if the player is still holding down the use button, if they hold it down for long enough the object should be consumed, if they don't then the object will get moved to inventory.

Well, it's still almost two weeks till a new Halloween SCP beta... possibly (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, voodoo).

[67425b49659baJoin2]

Bioshock is moddable if you are willing to go beastmode like me, but the delivery systems for the mods you make are too unfriendly for the average player

Installer? I knew nothing about installers but managed to get a functional one done in a couple days with NSIS. Only a little further learning was needed for more advanced features.

About the "use in-world", it seems I misunderstood, what about using Prey 2017's solution with a script somehow (hold down rightclick to consume an in-world object right away), make it so on frob certain objects will run a script instead of moving to inventory immediately and will start checking if the player is still holding down the use button, if they hold it down for long enough the object should be consumed, if they don't then the object will get moved to inventory.

One alternative, yeah.

[67425b4965babNameless Voice]

The problem isn't installing files, it's getting the game to load the mod at appropriate times (basically, it needs to run a console command every time a map loads, whether by starting a new game, reloading, or entering a new area.)

But that all needs a new thread.

[67425b4965e46Djant]

Here's where I disagree with you and say the Research mechanic is pretty great. The long wait times are there so you don't want to stand around waiting for your research to finish in a Chemical storeroom. If all it took were 15 seconds of waiting, it'd make much more sense to wait in relative safety in the storeroom and do the inventory management ASAP. With a long research time, you're supposed to commit to researching the object and make your way to storerooms for the appropriate chemicals when you get the chance. I really enjoy the gameplay loop here, because it adds a small layer of management and gives me new things to do on various decks of the ship, making me path out efficient routes to complete research while going through the usual combat/looting/exploration to progress my objectives. It's one of those pieces that adds to the whole and makes Shock 2 a joy to play with all its systems tugging at you at once.

Actually, the long research times are precisely what encourages me to coop up in a chemical storeroom, since depriving myself of a few slots just to get some junk researched is a notable liability while exploring or fighting, and there's little chance of being ambushed while in one.

As for thinking up efficient ways back to chemical storerooms: actually all it does is add some backtracking you do for a damage bonus. You could of course argue that it adds some strategizing, but the same applies for inventory management, like say, backtracking back for some grenades you stashed somewhere or for worm beakers to recycle. So frankly it's just as "degenerate" as players backtracking to recycle every single plant or cigarette, it just involves less items and has a bigger payoff.

The thing with level design is that backtracking is generally supposed to be cut down as much as possible, since familiarity breeds contempt. There's no better way to destroy the experience than to drag it out over already familiar terrain, when you're so powerful that the challenges present therein no longer matter much. This is why metroidvanias feature unlockable shortcuts, teleports, and speed upgrades; to make exploration less of a chore and avoid it from getting in the way as much as possible while backtracking.

[67425b496627bMarvin]

Actually, the long research times are precisely what encourages me to coop up in a chemical storeroom, since depriving myself of a few slots just to get some junk researched is a notable liability while exploring or fighting, and there's little chance of being ambushed while in one.

A pattern emerges...

[67425b49665e5JDoran]

Bioshock is moddable if you are willing to go beastmode like me, but the delivery systems for the mods you make are too unfriendly for the average player, if someone wants to jump in and help me with that they are more than welcome. I really need to post what I have already anyway.

I know about the Bioshock difficulty mod (which is achieved through the author editing some configuration files, I think?), and apparently there's one for Bioshock 2, but I've not see that one, but do you mean that there are more mods for Bioshock 1 and 2, or that potentially someone could create mods but haven't yet done so?

[67425b4966a3fNameless Voice]

The thing with level design is that backtracking is generally supposed to be cut down as much as possible, since familiarity breeds contempt. There's no better way to destroy the experience than to drag it out over already familiar terrain, when you're so powerful that the challenges present therein no longer matter much. This is why metroidvanias feature unlockable shortcuts, teleports, and speed upgrades; to make exploration less of a chore and avoid it from getting in the way as much as possible while backtracking.

There's nothing wrong with backtracking if you've managed to create an interesting world that is enjoyable to navigate.
Strictly cutting down on it just makes your game feel like an extremely linear progression of scenarios, where you just move through each area once, consume it, and move on to the next, rather than a realistic space that you are free to explore.

[67425b4966b6avoodoo47]

hey, anyone fluent in retardese? thought mine was pretty good, but the stuff that's happening in the comment section of the Recycler video is next level.

[67425b4966cf7JML]

Wow.