SS2 QBR Breaker

[6741cf63aec11JDoran]

So you're telling me a game that, by your own admission turns to complete shit after the first half, is good.

Interesting.

No, it's still a good game, at least for the first half, but it really falls off later on. A few games are great to play up until a certain point. Half-Life, for example, is great except for the conveyer belt part in the middle (which isn't too long, thankfully), and the tedious Xen sections at the end of the game. Whenever I play through Half-Life, I always stop at the part where you teleport to Xen. Apparently the fan made game Black Mesa has totally changed the Xen levels, and they are really good to play (so I've read), but I've not played Black Mesa since their version of Xen was added, so I can't yet comment.

Psi Ops is another great game where the developers really harm the latter part of the game. When you acquire the final mind-power, that's when playing it becomes a chore. Until then it's fun to play.

Bioshock jumps the shark much earlier in the game than Half-Life and Psi-Ops, but it's still well worth playing until that point.

Bioshock 2, though gets almost everything right. It fixes most of the first games flaws, has a better moral choice system, the game dodn't suffer a loss of quality at all as it goes on, it improves the hacking, and plasmids, adds some new things into the mix, the levels are more fun to explore, the game doesn't feel like it's one scripted event after another, and has better bot-pathing for the flying security turrets. The only things the first game does better than the second are the opening scene in the first game, where you first see Rapture as you glide towards it in the bathysphere, the first game's story is more memorable, and the main characters are more memorable in the first game.

Bioshock 2 is the only one of the three Bioshock games that I regularly replay. It never gets old or boring, I think.

[6741cf63aeedeJDoran]

Right, things are either shit or not. Stop confounding us with those multivalent ideas of yours, JDoran!

"Multivalent"? I've just learned a new work, thanks! 

[6741cf63af09aZylonBane]

Something not yet mentioned in this thread is the entire reason why QBRs exist in the first place-- to encourage players to NOT save-scum. With an active QBR, you stay immersed in the game world even when you die instead of getting kicked back out to a game menu. Just like the non-pausing PDA keeps you constantly in the game, the QBRs also keep you constantly in the game. It's a good thing.

Some gamers are big babies who don't like to live with even the slightest consequences of getting killed though, so they save-scum anyway.

[6741cf63af392sarge945]

False. QBRs are so cheap and plentiful, they effectively allow you to continually throw yourself at hard enemies and wear them down for an extremely small nanites cost which can easily be replenished by a handful of easy kills.

Far from being babies, one of the reasons people use this mod is because they want the game to not be trivialised by mechanics that aren't balanced well.

Being kicked back to the start of the deck (the last autosave) is often further than the QBR anyway, trivialising things even more.

If there was a proper save scum removal mod it would pair well with this one.

[6741cf63af5b3JDoran]

Maybe SCP can add more difficulty modes, or difficulty mode modifiers.

For example, some people like to play "Iron man" mode in various games, which is where you voluntarily don't save in a game, and if you die before you complete the game, then you have failed, and if you want to continue, then you have to start again from the beginning.

In SCP, you could perhaps have four Iron Man difficulty Levels; Iron Man, Easy, Iron Man Medium, etc, where each Iron Man difficulty level is just the equivalent straight difficulty level, but with the save and load features disabled, and the QBR booths disabled too (since QBR resurrection is just a sort of save/load system, kind of). So when you die, it's game over, no ifs or buts. Most players won't want to play this mode, but it might well be a welcome challenge to those who know the game backwards and want to be challenged by the game again.

Then you could have four "QBR-Only" difficulty levels; again, these levels don't allow saving or loading, but the QBR booths do work, but they charge a higher, carefully considered (by the SCP authors) amount of Nanites, to make resurrection a much more undesirable game mechanic. Maybe resurrection could have even more penalties, such as not all of your ammunition or energy levels survive, or not all of your weapons come back to the booth with you, so you have to go back to where you died to pick up those weapons.

And of course the game should keep it's current (save and load at will, and QBR are allowed) difficulty levels, for anyone who don't want to experience the challenges of Iron Man difficulty,or QBR-Only difficulty.

[6741cf63af918RoSoDude]

I had ideas/plans to make QBRs more hardcore and more tightly integrated, but I'm not sure if they're feasible in NewDark.

Not to mention, I died only 2 times total in my last playthrough on Hard (with my mods which all make the game more difficult), both times to platforming on maps with no QBR or one I hadn't found yet. So even hardcore QBRs would barely make a difference, unless Impossible difficulty proves much different.

[6741cf63b0179ZylonBane]

False. QBRs are so cheap and plentiful, they effectively allow you to continually throw yourself at hard enemies and wear them down for an extremely small nanites cost which can easily be replenished by a handful of easy kills.

Oh wahh wahh. Gamers who abuse the QBRs to engage in suicidal zerg rush tactics have already abandoned immersion anyway.

But sure, I'll play. Pray tell, why do YOU think some of the smartest PC game designers ever to walk the Earth—designers who were singularly focused on producing immersive, simmish experiences—thought that implementing the nonstandard resurrection machine mechanic in both Shock games was a good idea?

In SCP, you could perhaps have four Iron Man difficulty Levels; Iron Man, Easy, Iron Man Medium, etc, where each Iron Man difficulty level is just the equivalent straight difficulty level, but with the save and load features disabled words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words

You know missions can't disable saving and loading, right? That's functionality handled at the metagame level, which is completely outside the game engine.

[6741cf63b077bJoin2]

Bioshock 2...It never gets old or boring, I think.

Most triggering post in the thread award goes to you, but it's for the best as you distracted me from some other triggering shit that I don't want to get involved in (been there, done that). The game was so boring and hardly improved the flaws of the first game (though it fixed some) that I gave up 70% of the way in and never returned. This is not an excuse for you to turn this into a thread about defending Bioshock 2. You bring this upon yourself with your constant Bioshock praise. Please just ignore me

[6741cf63b1315sarge945]

Oh wahh wahh. Gamers who abuse the QBRs to engage in suicidal zerg rush tactics have already abandoned immersion anyway.

If using an immersion breaking and boring playstyle is the best overall strategy, maybe the game isn't so well designed.

But sure, I'll play. Pray tell, why do YOU think some of the smartest PC game designers ever to walk the Earth—designers who were singularly focused on producing immersive, simmish experiences—thought that implementing the nonstandard resurrection machine mechanic in both Shock games was a good idea?

"Okay mister, if you're so smart then how come I have this argument from authority? Checkmate!"

But to actually give a serious answer, at least the cyborg conversation chambers actually cost you time, which means something tangible on the higher difficulties where completion time is a factor. It's an actual punishment for dying.

In SS2 they likely just ported it across because SS1 had it. They at least tried to balance it but overall the incentives and punishments are piss weak. I'm open to the idea of more hardcore QBRs, but their vanilla implementation is extremely lacking to the point where disabling them and relying on autosaves actually makes the game harder in many ways as I explained in my last comment. I understand the concept they were going for, it's just not implemented very well.

You know missions can't disable saving and loading, right? That's functionality handled at the metagame level, which is completely outside the game engine.

Yes. Some good discipline is required to not save scum. It sucks but that's the reality. This mod at least makes being disciplined a little easier.

Not striving to make something better because the engine has limits seems very defeatist. Even if this mod doesn't truly fix the problem, it at the very least addresses it, and I appreciate it for that.

The nice thing about mods is, if you disagree, nobody is forcing you to use it.

I'm still yet to see how arguing that this is for crybabies is a sound argument, let alone a valid one.

[6741cf63b16ccJDoran]

You know missions can't disable saving and loading, right? That's functionality handled at the metagame level, which is completely outside the game engine.

No, I didn't know that. I've never tried to edit or create anything in the SS2 editor so I don't know what might or might not be possible, sorry.

Oh well, if anyone did want to "Iron Man" the game, then (as with most games) they could do it on the honour system.

[6741cf63b1950Kolya]

The QBRMs have to be cheap because if they would cost you people would just go back to save scumming.

One might check with a tripwire before the QBRMs whether the player was resurrected. If the player leaves a QBRM he didn't enter, you could punish them, eg  by triggering an Alarm.

I'm wondering if one could also detect loading of a save game inside the game somehow and punish that equally.
 

[6741cf63b1b30sarge945]

I think Dark Souls has the most balanced QBRMs I've seen so far in any game - you get fully refreshed, but the entire area also gets fully respawned.

Of course, it doesn't have saving at all, but it's still overall a good system. Save scumming is impossible, but at the same time the death mechanics are sufficiently punishing.

Imo the big problem with SS2 is that the QBRMs contradict with the save system. As you pointed out, if it's not cheap nobody will use it. But if it's cheap, it's overpowered.

I really wish there was a way to limit the game to autosaves, but I guess players can already do that by just not saving.

I usually play "autosaves only, QBRMs disabled" and it's pretty fun. There's a few ironman playthroughs on YouTube and they look pretty fun too, but probably beyond my skill level.

[6741cf63b1ca9Salk]

Perhaps the saves limit could be optionally introduced by a specific modification and made it independent from the difficulty level?

[6741cf63b1e05voodoo47]

as mentioned, we are very sure saves are handled by the engine, so no, ain't gonna happen. self-restraint, best restraint.

[6741cf63b2072sarge945]

self-restraint, best restraint.

Your best bet is to unbind the quicksave key and not use the menu.

Spamming the quicksave button can be....a habit

[6741cf63b24fcsarge945]

I've been thinking more about how the game is designed, and why QBRs feel so...awkward to so many people.

I guess when it comes down to the actual gameplay of both QBRs and Medbeds, they are *mostly* fine in their initial design. The issue is how spammable/abusable they are and how the save system effectively renders them meaningless.

Having an actual resource cost to dying is pretty based, same with having a resource cost associated with healing.

The main issues I see are:
1. There's sort of no point paying the nanite cost to use a QBR, since you can freely save anywhere you want and can just load the game on death. 15 nanites is far too cheap for a resurrection (a single med hypo can cost 20 something nanites after hacking a replicator), but increasing it to, say, 100 nanites (a far more fair and less spammable/abusable cost) then makes it worthless because saves are free. The game is contradicting it's own design. In their current design QBRs are basically just a punishment for forgetting to save recently, which is horrible.
2. Medbeds are so insanely cheap and plentiful, and can be spammed near infinitely. The player can run around to a medbed quicker than the enemies can respawn, which can make for a very repetitive (and in my opinion, extremely boring) style of play where the aim is to save hypos by constantly running back to the medbed. Again, free saving sort of invalidates all this anyway because why bother spending 10 nanites for a heal when you can just keep reloading until you get the kill perfectly.

In fact, many mechanics are broken by free saves. Failed a security computer hack? Just reload. Spending too many nanites on a modification and you run out? Just reload.

Unfortunately, short of changing how the save system works itself, or artificially enforcing certain rules on yourself when playing, many aspects of the game are impacted negatively. QBRs feeling cheap and overpowered plays directly into this.

I once had an idea to keep QBRs and Medbeds without making them abusable (and giving some backtracking mitigation), which was to have them break (and need to be repaired) every 3 uses (or every 1 use for a QBR), with the repair level requirement and difficulty going up by 1 every time they break, until eventually they can't be repaired anymore. While I feel like this would help to mitigate some of the "just go down the elevator and heal" shenanigans, it still doesn't fix the fundamental, underlying problem - the time machine in your pocket that lets you delete your mistakes for free.

Not that there's anything that can be done about this. As has been mentioned, saving is a core fundamental engine feature.

But if I had a recommendation for people wanting to get the absolute most out of the game, you should enforce these rules upon yourself:

1. Save the first time you reach every bulkhead. Unbind your quicksave key and do not save anymore unless you're needing to quit for whatever reason. If you save and quit, delete your save as soon as you resume.
2. Use the QBR Breaker mod as QBRs are far too cheap.
3. Either don't use medbeds at all, or use SS2-RSD so that they all require activation keys.
4. (Possibly) increase (double?) the respawn rate, which will make backtracking to safe healing sources less rewarding. This does nothing to stop the giant item hoarding commonly seen in medsci though, where every item in the game is stored there (why did they bother giving us an inventory?)

By playing this way, you will suddenly find that:
- Nanite costs for things like security terminals, hacking difficulty etc actually matter. You will no longer end the game with a huge overabundance of nanites
- Red nodes are still generally not worth taking, but if you're running low on nanites, they might be a risk worth taking. With free saving they are literally a worthless choice as they either succeed, or they fail and you reload.
- You might actually run out of med hypos (and, god forbid, have to actually buy some!), as your particularly bad fights will stick with you and will have to be healed off, rather than being simply deleted when you go "that was terrible" and reload.

I'd suggest everyone try it. It's a completely different (and in my opinion, far better) gameplay experience. I might try an ironman run one of these days too, although I can see how it could be frustrating going RIGHT BACK TO THE START because a psi reaver kills you in body of the many. I feel like my approach above is forgiving enough to not be frustrating, but still punishes you for your mistakes. With this playstyles, QBRs aren't that bad (although the nanite cost is still WAY too forgiving)