The Topic Of Fail

[6744e1eddae48voodoo47]

yeeah, anyone recommending revision loses all credibility that very moment as far as I'm concerned.

"lets google and see what the first hit is" articles, way too many of those out there nowadays. even some very popular youtubers are guilty of this - linus tech tips and their 3dfx video would be a good example, yes linus, I know you can read the wiki, but you need to realize actual enthusiasts will be watching the video, and they will burn you at the stake before you can say scan line interleave. NOT a good idea to pretend you know what you are talking about hoping your audience is too young to find out.

[6744e1eddafeeremyabel]

Revision has official endorsement by Sony so it's not too surprising that it gets all the spotlight and other mods don't. There's also just the fact that "modern" gamers like flashy, visible changes, something more niche or doesn't have flashy changes will tend to get ignored.

Linus Tech Tips may have some technical chops, but far too often he thinks that because he's qualified in one area that he's qualified to speak in other areas. It results in a lot of his videos that are poorly researched where he blames the things he can't figure out instead of acknowledging his knowledge gap.

The other downside is just the eternal september effect. Thanks to LTT the Linux community is now swarmed by people who don't understand Linux and constantly complain about its alleged deficiencies, giving some fan mods the spotlight would no doubt result in the same problem.

[6744e1eddb0e6voodoo47]

yes, poorly researched, that is the correct way of putting it.

also, move to the Topic of Fail, perhaps?

[6744e1eddb38aJDoran]

yes, poorly researched, that is the correct way of putting it.

also, move to the Topic of Fail, perhaps?

If you think so, of course.

[6744e1eddb494voodoo47]

*snaps fingers* done. more fail, more fun.

also, sony endorsing revision? there goes all the respect I had had for them.. well, not like I had any to begin with.

[6744e1eddb7c1JDoran]

Revision has official endorsement by Sony...

What do Sony have to do with the first Deus Ex game, and so the Revision mod? They don't have the game on either the PS4 or the PS5, as far as I know. A good port of Deus Ex, with changes both good and bad, is on the PS2, called 'Deus Ex: The Conspiracy', and you can also get this version as a digitally downloaded PS2 classic on the PS3, but DON'T BUY IT ON THE PS3, as the screen flickering is so bad as to make it unplayable. If anyone knows the (seemingly very well hidden) Sony email address for complaining about PS2 games on the PS3, then please let me know.

Do you perhaps mean that the current rights holders of Deus Ex have endorsed the Revision mod? That sounds more plausible, though if Revision is the only one they have endorsed, then I'd be curious to learn why they chose that one and no others.

[6744e1eddb8b4voodoo47]

hmm.. now that I think about it, wasn't it steam where revision is presented as (quasi) official mod?

[6744e1eddc228sarge945]

VR. you probably mean VR. 3D is fine, and it's been fine since Quake.

Guess I should weigh in here since I actually work with VR profesionally

So, I can understand WHY people consider VR a fad. Unfortunately VR developers have done a horrible job promiting it, it was sort of just dumped on everyone with no software support, leaving indie devs to make all the content for it. Being indie devs, they naturally created shallow, low-effort content that was more spectacle than anything of value, and so everyone rightly wrote-off the technology as a fad and got on with their lives. At the same time you had deep, immersive, well made standard games, you had shallow, barely-functional VR "experiences" (many of them confined to a single box), with no replayability and barely any gameplay.

Of course everyone thought it was stupid.

Since the early days there have been some better releases and more "real" games - HL Alyx, Arizona Sunshine, Into the Radius, Boneworks, Superhot VR, to name a few. But because headsets are still relatively expensive (at least that's the meme, you can actually get them pretty cheap if you play your cards right), people still aren't willing to buy in, even if there's a decent number of games for it.

Worse, it's going in a bad direction. Not only are more developers releasing half-assed ports and bad VR experiences, the whole industry is becoming more proprietary and predatory. Oculus is the current industry leader (by a large margin), which is a real shame given the  Facebook login requirements, and how generally suspicious they are overall. VR would be significantly better off as a platform if Oculus simply ceased to exist. To make matters even worse, console manufacturers have effectively given up on VR completely - Microsoft is not interested at all and Sony is very half-assed about it, so your average console gamer (aka the majority in western countries like the USA) simply won't be able to play, even if they want to. That makes the small market share even more painful for developers, because even if it took off it would still be PC exclusive for the most part. Modern AAA developers especially want mass market appeal, and this is the direct opposite of that.

Because of all of this, right now, the best jobs in the industry relate to simulations. Both me and a friend of mine have found work doing medical simulations (him using Unreal, me using Unity), usually of procedures or equipment training. I feel this is the way VR is going to go for the time being, since there is tangible value in these - doctors are already looking at the technology very favourably as it allows them to practice procedures they normally only do 1-2 times a year, like rare surgeries. VR is likely going to stay in industrial applications for a time.

However, there is some good news. Even if it's purely for industrial use, VR is still being worked on technologically, and a lot of the underlying issues ARE being resolved. Because of this, I feel we will see a second-wave of VR in the gaming space, with the market re-emerging once affordable, comfortable and convenient headsets start arriving on the market. I expect a VR revival in 2025, especially if console manufacturers get in on it and start pushing VR games on their platforms.

As for 3D in 3D TVs, I'm glad that fad is over. Now we need Smart TV's to join them. Smart TV's are the worst invention in a long time.

hmm.. now that I think about it, wasn't it steam where revision is presented as (quasi) official mod?

Yes

Linus Tech Tips may have some technical chops, but far too often he thinks that because he's qualified in one area that he's qualified to speak in other areas. It results in a lot of his videos that are poorly researched where he blames the things he can't figure out instead of acknowledging his knowledge gap.

On this note, have you seen Linus gaming on Linux series?

I've never seen one person so stubbornly devoted to refusing to read documentation, doing things the "Windows" way, failing, then blaming the system. It's extremely frustrating. Worse, because he's a respected "expert" on anything computer related, other people will then assume that it's the softwares fault because Linus must be perfect.

It would be like a Mac user using Windows for the first time, not being able to find Finder in the start menu, and concluding that the entire OS is not ready and not viable for anyone other than extreme power users as a result.

[6744e1eddc40eJDoran]

You're bang on target about the main problem with current VR being the quality (or lack of quality) of the games. A few are are very good, but most are at best a good visual demonstration of what VR can do, but too short or too gimmicky, or just not good playability-wise. Though it's probably been more than two years since I've bothered to try a VR game, so if there had been a renaissance then I would have missed it anyway.

I did initially hope that gaming companies would port their older games to VR, as I imagined this would be quick and easy to do, and would result in many of the best games coming to VR. Nope. Very few old games have been brought into VR, instead we get 'new' games, mainly clones of other games but with limited play-length and even more limited quality.

[6744e1eddc978sarge945]

I did initially hope that gaming companies would port their older games to VR, as I imagined this would be quick and easy to do, and would result in many of the best games coming to VR. Nope. Very few old games have been brought into VR, instead we get 'new' games, mainly clones of other games but with limited play-length and even more limited quality.

Most companies are looking for a quick buck when they rerelease an old game.

Going out of their way to change the control scheme, camera system, interactions, etc would be a huge amount of work, and will likely change the gameplay in unintended ways. Porting an old game to VR on the cheap is either impossible or not worth doing.

Take something like SS2. If you could free aim in VR you'd be able to cheese the AI in unintended ways. Things like mantling would likely make you sick. All the menus and inventory screen would either need to be redone, or would have a lackluster implementation using laser pointers. There would be no interactivity as the game barely has a physics engine.

It wouldn't be SS2 anymore. It's conveniently also why Night Dives version is going to be terrible

[6744e1eddcb2cJDoran]

But for pure first person shooters, such as Doom, Unreal Tournament, or Half-Life, I don't see the problem. I would imagine they could easily be made to work with VR, and would be very popular with gamers.

[6744e1eddccecremyabel]

I disagree. System Shock's HUD is supposed to resemble what the in-game character is actually looking at (even Firefighters have futuristic HUDs now), so it wouldn't be too jarring to have it in VR. As for mantling, they can either have something similar to a teleport control scheme to allow players to skip simulating mantling in real life or make it an easy gesture to do.

> There would be no interactivity as the game barely has a physics engine.

This I also highly disagree with. Have you not seen objects fall, fly or skid across the terrain? If there was barely a physics engine I'd expect the objects to be very static or not interact with the terrain at all.

> If you could free aim in VR you'd be able to cheese the AI in unintended ways

Can you not free aim in the game already? How would you cheese the AI? If you're talking about leaning and shooting you can already do that in the base game.

[6744e1eddce82icemann]

Perhaps something like those eye tracking interfaces made those with severe disabilities might work in VR for System Shock style interfaces. So you control the player character largely through the controller or glove or whatever, but when it comes to the UI that's all controlled via eye movement. I have no idea at all if that would actually work, but just popped into my head as I read this thread.

[6744e1eddd83csarge945]

I disagree. System Shock's HUD is supposed to resemble what the in-game character is actually looking at (even Firefighters have futuristic HUDs now), so it wouldn't be too jarring to have it in VR.

The problem isn't the immersion. The issue is that it's a very mouse driven UI. VR interfaces are generally designed for human meat fingers and are therefore a lot more like phone interfaces. They could bypass this by using laser pointers instead of hands, but that still results in bad accuracy (especially on cheap low resolution headsets) and all sorts of other annoyances. If an interface would be painful to use on your phone, it would be painful to use in VR.

Also keep in mind VR controllers have limited button layouts. Usually a few less buttons than a standard controller. The quest 2, for example, has 2 joysticks, 4 face buttons, 2 triggers and 2 squeeze buttons. That's it. Even if they did somehow make the interface work, there are problems upon problems with controlling the game in a convenient way that require actual effort to fix.

As for mantling, they can either have something similar to a teleport control scheme to allow players to skip simulating mantling in real life or make it an easy gesture to do.

The problem is that the act of mantling would make many players sick. They could replace it with a teleport but I see that as very half assed.

> There would be no interactivity as the game barely has a physics engine.

This I also highly disagree with. Have you not seen objects fall, fly or skid across the terrain? If there was barely a physics engine I'd expect the objects to be very static or not interact with the terrain at all.

Old games (even new games) cut a lot of corners with their physics engines to keep performance up. In VR this is a lot more noticeable and will sour the experience for a lot of people.

If you want to see how bad the physics engine is, try throwing the basketball around. Now account for the player trying to throw it at awkward angles, put it in other objects (like bins), push objects into other objects, etc etc etc.

This isn't Half Life 2.

> If you could free aim in VR you'd be able to cheese the AI in unintended ways

Can you not free aim in the game already? How would you cheese the AI? If you're talking about leaning and shooting you can already do that in the base game.

You can literally stick your arm around a corner and shoot things. You can shoot behind you. You can duck and weave between projectiles. You can grab things that are reasonably far away. You can pick up multiple objects at once and take them with you while your inventory is full.

I don't think you've really thought through this thoroughly. VR support is an absolute can of worms and getting it working in a game is a huge undertaking. Getting a few devs to slap VR on an existing game in an existing engine is a much harder sell.

Does Kex even have proper VR support in any other games? If not, it's a lot of work and I have a feeling it'll be abandoned before release

[6744e1eddd947JDoran]

Apparently the PSVR 2 (Sony's virtual reality headset for the Playstation 5, the successor to the original PSVR for the PS4) will have eye tracking as standard.

[6744e1eddda2evoodoo47]

whatever they attempt, it will always be too much bother, wires, visors, whatever. I'll just wait for the matrix style headjack.

[6744e1edddc5aicemann]

Apparently the PSVR 2 (Sony's virtual reality headset for the Playstation 5, the successor to the original PSVR for the PS4) will have eye tracking as standard.

Nice

[6744e1eddddc8fox]

The specs of the upcoming Pimax 12K QLED sound pretty good. Remains to be seen if it will actually come out this year. Also you're going to need a high end PC to properly drive it.

[6744e1edde026sarge945]

The specs of the upcoming Pimax 12K QLED sound pretty good. Remains to be seen if it will actually come out this year. Also you're going to need a high end PC to properly drive it.

If it's anything like the previous Pimax, it'll be horrible.

The 8k is a fisheye, sickness inducing mess. It's the worst headset I've used.

[6744e1edde305JDoran]

whatever they attempt, it will always be too much bother, wires, visors, whatever. I'll just wait for the matrix style headjack.

I'm at the age now (fifty-one) where I'm starting to think about the technology, especially video-game related technology, that I won't live long enough to see. Or that I might live long enough to see, but by then I will be too old, too infirm, and maybe too confused to actually enjoy it. If total immersion VR is even possible, then I won't live to see it.

Mind you, the way gaming is going, I probably wouldn't enjoy total immersion VR anyway. I mean, by the time it comes out, Electronic Arts will probably own all of the software houses and studios, Disney will own every TV and movie franchise, and Google will be using so much electricity for their servers that the rest of the world will suffer regular blackouts. There will be no innovation in games, no competition to drive down the prices, and gamers will actually have to pay for the bug-fixing patches for their games.

And we gamers will deserve all of this, because we are the ones who allowed things to get this way, by tolerating and supporting every customer-hostile idea and product that the games industry dared to try to inflict upon us.

[6744e1edde44eicemann]

Who knows. Maybe Tencent will take EA someday. I find the older I'm getting the more change resistant I'm becoming. Like, I now vastly prefer playing games on my PC vs consoles. That said I quite like the Switch, though there's not enough good exclusives on it.

Much of the best games these days tend to come out across all the platforms. So when that's the case, I don't see the point in getting it on anything but PC.

[6744e1edde78dfox]

If it's anything like the previous Pimax, it'll be horrible.

The 8k is a fisheye, sickness inducing mess. It's the worst headset I've used.

Yeah, I've heared about such issues with previous Pimax-products but also that they started to improve their products. On paper it sounds better than most, if not all, consumer/enthusiast level headsets so far. At least it was when it was announced a couple of months ago, as far as I know.

My very limited experience with the Rift S didn't convert me into a big VR-fan yet but I sure see great potential if the industry keeps pushing it (HW and SW). Right now it is/would be mostly limited to sim racing and flight simulation for me, for which I built a decent dual-use (cockpit) sim rig over the last year. With the Rift S, it's really not that great (low resolution, lacking clarity etc) and the implementation of a VR mode in most games/sims is still fiddly and feeling improvised, so I still prefer the monitor or beamer instead.

However, from what I've seen, something of the same tier as the Varjo Aero or the upcoming headsets would already make for a totally different story. Just a few technical updates and QoL-improvements can already elevate the sim experience to a new level of immersion. I'm certainly planning on upgrading to something like that within the next few years.

[6744e1eddeacdsarge945]

Electronic Arts will probably own all of the software houses and studios, Disney will own every TV and movie franchise, and Google will be using so much electricity for their servers that the rest of the world will suffer regular blackouts. There will be no innovation in games, no competition to drive down the prices, and gamers will actually have to pay for the bug-fixing patches for their games.

Why did you say "the future might be like this" and then describe the present?

[6744e1eddebe8voodoo47]

"Microsoft acquires Activision Blizzard"

just posting it here, you know, for future reference..