SS2 Rebalanced Skills and Disciplines

[6741d51803590sarge945]

Good to see these. I think so far the only change I fundamentally disagree with in this mod is the Tank revert, as Tank was always kind of bad, except on the highest difficulty where it was good. Anything below that and it was just a bad upgrade.

I guess difficulty scaling is the best approach, but not sure how possible that is in Dark.

Any chance you're going to do things with PSI powers? I know you've already touched them a little, but there are skills that I think need a complete rework from scratch because of how completely useless they are (remote electron tampering? although I guess that's fixed by the alarming cameras mod, but still) and some which are just.....completely weird, like Remote Circuitry Manipulation which seems far too niche to be even remotely useful unless you've somehow gone a 100% psi build (and even then, it's probably cheaper CM wise to get some points in hacking, I haven't checked).

Don't even get me started on the WormSkin armor....

I am one of those people who have tried multiple Psi-only playthroughs and failed, as I usually find it's just not worth it. I know they can be done (I have seen lets plays of them), but they all tend to rely on a handful of disciplines to the exclusion of all else, and are mostly "challenge" playthroughs rather than a legitimate build option. Psi doesn't seem powerful enough to justify not using anything else and many disciplines are completely useless unless you are a pure psi character, and even then, many of them are overshadowed by others, which puts psi in this weird no-mans-land where it's not useful unless you're a purely psi character, and being a purely psi character is generally not worth it overall. I'm not exactly an expert on game balance, but that seems like it has enough problems to significantly reduce the depth and viability of psi or semi-psi playthroughs, to the point where most of them are fundamentally the same, with the same basic handful of abilities, always by really good players who can leverage the extreme weaknesses of psi to make the game work for them, but even then it's more difficult than using other methods and for no real benefit other than "it's fun". I guess someone could do fun alternate builds, but they are kind of hurting themselves by doing them. It sucks because you can tell the developers put thought and effort into the powers and it sucks seeing a good 80% of them being nothing but a trap to waste CMs. Maybe I am being too harsh...

Overall though, yet another update full of good changes

[6741d51803c13RoSoDude]

Tank is slightly better on Normal and Hard than vanilla since they have reduced base HP, but I'd definitely rather have it scale with difficulty to avoid making it a must-have on Impossible. Just not sure how or if it's doable yet.

I wanted to do more with psi disciplines, but hit a brick wall. Some can be tweaked or even replaced by simply editing the object hierarchy, while others have hardcoded effects in the player script that I can't alter. I wanted to swap some powers between tiers (particularly Photonic Redirection in tier 4 with Metacreative Barrier in tier 5), but this didn't seem possible. Remote Electron Tampering is a cool ability with Alarming Cameras, so I'm happy with that one. Remote Circuitry Manipulation is worth the 12 cyber modules if you already spent 40 to access tier 4 (which is worth it overall), definitely less than investing into Hack + CYB if you're a pure OSA character, but keep in mind that it uses half of your PSI stat (rounded up) for both of them instead. The real question is if it's worth the psi points to cast, which varies depending on the application.

I have found a great amount of utility from psi in hybrid builds, but I've not yet tried a full psi character. That'll be my next run on Impossible to test the limits. It's true that not all disciplines are created equal, but a lot of them are worth getting depending on what you want to do, as you can forgo entire stats and skills if you play your cards right. The cybernetic stat boosts are great (particularly AGI and CYB at tier 1), Anti-Entropic Field is highly underrated for low-Maintenance, Electron Cascade can be great for energy weapons or implants, and the damaging psi powers can help save on ammo. My understanding is that pure psi characters are really just optimized melee builds, as Psychogenic Strength + Adrenaline Overproduction + Cerebro-Energetic Extension is the best melee setup.

If I had to rank the psi disciplines from my own experience (including my changes), it'd be roughly as below. My ranking factors in the cyber module and psi cost (which depends somewhat on difficulty) and usefulness to both hybrid and pure psi builds.
S: Psychogenic Agility, Psychogenic Cyber Affinity, Adrenaline Overproduction, Cerebro-Stimulated Regeneration
A: Projected Cryokinesis, Localized Pyrokinesis, Molecular Duplication, Projected Pyrokinesis, Psionic Hypnogenesis, Electron Suppression, Photonic Redirection, Psycho-Reflective Aura
B: Psycho-Reflective Screen, Remote Electron Tampering (Alarming Cameras), Anti-Entropic Field, Recursive Psionic Amplification, Electron Cascade, Neural Toxin-Blocker, Molecular Transmutation, Remote Circuitry Manipulation, Cerebro-Energetic Extension, Soma Transference, Imposed Neural Restructuring
C: Remote Electron Tampering (vanilla/SS2-RSD), Psychogenic Strength, Energy Reflection, Advanced Cerebro-Stimulated Regeneration, External Psionic Detonation
D: Neural Decontamination, Neuro-Reflex Dampening, Psychogenic Endurance, Instantaneous Quantum Relocation, Metacreative Barrier
F: Kinetic Redirection, Enhanced Motion Sensitivity, Remote Pattern Detection

I can edit the individual cyber module cost of disciplines beyond within each tier, but I've been reluctant to do so out of a sense of consistency. Swapping disciplines between tiers would be a better solution to even out some of the cost/benefit, but I just don't think it can be done (I tried a lot of approaches).

[6741d518041c7sarge945]

Thanks for the in-depth discussion about it. It's good to see you're interested in making psi more fundamentally useful.

Hopefully some of the more skilled modders can help you out with this. Voodoo and ZB seem to be the resident experts on here.

Moving stuff around is a good start, but I still feel there will be some disciplines that are just plain bad without a good rework. Like Advanced Cerebro-Stimulated Regeneration which is too good to be viable on impossible (ironically). I would think the only proper way to fix that would be to either change how it works entirely, or nerf the lower-tier version while reducing that versions cost and tier, neither of which are particularly good approaches to the problem. The first thing that came to my mind was overheal, but that seems both impossible in the engine and extremely overpowered.

Luckily things like Remote Pattern Detection can be fixed easily. If it lasted a lot longer and was in Tier 1, it could be useful as a utility skill for people who haven't memorised where every item is (hopefully someone makes a good randomiser again soon, the existing one is obsolete). Having it in Tier 5 is just ridiculous.

I know my opinion is likely not worth much, but here's how I would tackle the F and D tier abilities. This is just my opinion, and as it's your mod you probably have a better understanding of all this, and I have no idea what's actually possible in the engine:

Kinetic Redirection - Halved PSI cost. Start with it free if you select OSA, replace the year 1 ability that would give it free with something else. Reasoning: Keep it as a nice utility skill that doesn't really require any investment at all

Remote Pattern Detection - Move to Tier 1, reduce PSI cost, massively increase duration (5 minutes per PSI or whatever). Reasoning: Tier 5 is ridiculous for such a basic utility skill. It would make more sense as a cheap item finder. This might be a good idea for the Year 1 replacement of Kinetic Redirection. This would be really awesome with a proper randomiser. Reasoning: Skill is useless for anyone who has played the game before. I dont know what to do with this at all, other than using it with a randomiser.

Enhanced Motion Sensitivity - Make significantly cheaper, massively increase duration such as 1 minute per PSI isntead of 30 seconds per psi, possibly move down to Tier 2. Reasoning: This is a more advanced utility skill, and I can see some pretty big benefits to having it, but it's really annoying to constantly recast and is an endless drain on psi.

Neural Decontamination - This skill is literally useless because the game is FULL of anti-rad hypos and you can get the radiation suit pretty easily when you need it. I have no idea what to do with this. If you were looking for a more overall gameplay change, it could be fun (or possibly break the game entirely, so it's probably not a good idea) making radiation more of an actual threat in general by limiting rad hypos and the radiation suit somewhat, which would positively effect this skill in a round-about way. Other than that, I would just get rid of this entirely or completely change it, because it's totally useless. I would have personally put this in G tier myself. I have never in any playthrough had a serious problem with radiation on any difficulty. I think it's killed me a grand total of once. Toxic is a completely different beast and is extremely dangerous, and if this skill actually did anything to toxins it would be significantly more useful.

Neuro-Reflex Dampening - Maybe give it a more advanced effect when overloading (currently overloading does nothing), and possibly add an additional effect of "weapons dont degrade while it's active", I dunno. Reasoning: This skill seems to be good in general, but far too expensive for what it is. Either lower the cost or give it a secondary effect to justify spending anything on it.

Psychogenic Endurance - Make it give endurance + HP. So instead of 2 END, maybe 1 END + some HP. This is to offset the lower HP values from END, which make this pretty useless in impossible. This is a stealth nerf to the slight benefit of radiation resistance from the extra END, but I think it's worth it. Reasoning: This skill is extremely difficulty dependent.

Instantaneous Quantum Relocation - Knock this down to Tier 2 or 3, make casting the marker free. Reasoning: Tier 5 is too advanced for such a barebones skill. Having to use it twice per "use" makes it far too expensive. Personally I would make it 2 separate skills, with 1 being free and making a marker, and the second teleporting to the marker and not removing it. This would generally improve it's overall usefulness.

Metacreative Barrier - Move to Tier 4. No idea how to fix this skill. It seems useful in and of itself, so maybe it's just too much of an investment.

--

Now I wonder what's going to happen to energy weapons (if anything), since the rapier is only marginally better than the wrench (for a HUGE investment) and the EMP is borderline useless. Especially compared to the assault rifle which is extremely good. Being able to recharge prisms is IMO already a pretty good buff to heavy weapons, but energy seems to have gotten no love. Also, being able to recharge prisms sort of takes away the unique feature of energy weapons being rechargable, but I guess Heavy definitely needed a buff. I guess Energy is still less useless than Exotic...

Are you going to do something similar with Ice Picks that you did to French Epstein Devices? I'd restrict them to lvl 2 hack so they can still be used on boxes, just not the Shodan boss fight stuff.

One last thing. I know you have your own repair changes in this, but would you recommend using it with something like SS2 Repairman?

[6741d51804685RoSoDude]

Some good suggestions there for psi disciplines, it's just a question of what's feasible/what I can figure out. If all else fails, I can give in and adjust individual discipline costs (e.g. make some free with the tier, as you suggest).

I actually really like Energy weapons as they are; they've been a staple for me since vanilla/SCP playthroughs. Having weapons that I can use at basically no cost (just maint tools or even repair if I get desperate) is a godsend, particularly with them being useful against bots and turrets which are among the most dangerous threats in the game. There's some nuance with the Laser Pistol and EMP Rifle, where NORM shots are more energy efficient per point of damage but OVER shots cost less weapon durability per point of damage. Carrying multiple Laser Pistols can be advised if you have the space for it, as it offsets the durability issue and doubles the value compared to weapons that share the same ammo pool. The EMP rifle is pretty underrated if you ask me -- yes it can only harm mechanical enemies, but those are the bane of the Rickenbacker, and Midwives and Assassins still populate the Body of the Many. Technically my Maintenance change is an indirect nerf to the EMP rifle, but people never got Maint 6 for it anyway because there are so many high-quality EMP rifles lying around, which i also rectified. Put a few points into Repair if you don't want to take Maint that far and you're really spamming the EMP rifle.

Note that while the Assault Rifle still has high damage (10 vanilla, 8 in SS2Tool/SCP/SS2-RSD), it's now locked to 2-round burst minimum, degrades twice as fast (equal to pistol rate), and is harder to keep maintained since tools now subtract the requirement from the restoration amount. Worth carrying a Pistol as a finisher. On my last run I saved up for Standard 6 to blast through BotM with the AR alongside my Fusion Cannon and while it still absolutely shredded, it was fairly tricky to manage ammo and keep the thing in proper working order. I had it nearly break from perfect condition from BotM alone. My previous run before that was a pure Energy + Exotic + psi run, in which the EMP rifle was extensively useful while the Worm Launcher is sadly available too late to really make use of its awesome power. Can't change much about Exotic without messing with the plot, but at least they're free of degradation and Research is actually worth a damn overall now.

I considered dropping the Laser Rapier requirement from Energy skill 4 to 3 (and bumping Grenade Launcher up from Heavy skill 3 to 4, but this was obsolete after I reverted ADaOB grenades). but I'm actually somewhat pleased with it as is because the Laser Rapier does have a unique niche now that wrench no longer receives damage bonuses from Standard. Before, if you were at Standard 4 and Energy 4 trying to decide between the wrench and Laser Rapier, the latter would only be marginally better at 11 base damage vs 6*1.60=9.6 damage for the wrench (noting also that the Laser Rapier only does half damage to pure annelids). Now that the wrench is truly just the default melee weapon, the other options can shine more. The Crystal Shard is the incentive to get Exotic for most of game and the Research requirement is prohibitive so I don't mind it being the strongest while the Laser Rapier is more of a bonus for investing into Energy.

ICE picks and Repair units are definitely on my radar after my French-Epstein device nerf, but I'm not as confident taking the same approach. Locking them to certain skill requirements feels kinda arbitrary, as there's no other item that really works like that. Instead, I might prefer just making them fewer in number on the higher difficulties so as to counterbalance the higher cyber module cost for skills. This is already the case for FE devices on Impossible, but could be more granular. One ICE pick must be guaranteed for the Command replicator hack, but I don't think you ought to be guaranteed that + level 6 crates + SHODAN forcefield on Hard/Impossible, no matter how thoroughly you explore (maybe 5/5/4/3 on Easy/Normal/Hard/Impossible). There ought to be more level 6 crates too, honestly.

I recommend SS2 Repairman alongside SS2-RSD, just make sure SS2-RSD is loaded higher. It honestly doesn't affect the balance much, just adds some niche gameplay opportunities if you go for Repair which is appreciated. Repairable prisms don't really take away from Energy's niche IMO, they just cement Repair as the supplementary tech skill for Heavy like Maintenance already is for Energy. It really just acts as a cheaper buy for prisms than Replicators, depending on your skill. The most impactful change for Repair is the nerf to Maintenance effectiveness on weapons with high requirements. Even if it's just 1 less durability per tool, it's now much more likely that your Laser Pistol or Shotgun will break in the early game and you'll be pushed to repair, which was the goal.

[6741d518049cdsarge945]

One thought I did have was swapping the EMP Rifle and Laser Rapier in Energy, but giving Laser Rapier some bonus to make up for it being the highest-requirement energy weapon.

Like a secondary attack that uses charge but can stun enemies or something.

It's probably a stupid idea, but the focus was on making the EMP rifle itself less prohibitive to actually use. I don't think the issue is that it's necessarily a bad weapon, just a bad tier 3 weapon.

The weird thing is that Standard doesn't really need any secondary skill like the other weapon types do. Which would be okay if it also wasn't objectively the best weapon skill. You're really getting a lot more than the others for half the cost. I guess that's why so many people consider the AR too powerful. It's less damaging than the heavy weapons, but doesn't kill you and doesn't require insane amounts of CMs to use. Although I understand you've changed this all around a bit, which is a good approach.

And yeah, you're going to have to get really creative if you want to make Exotic viable. Having a weapon that you only find in the second last chapter is really silly. I don't know how much you can really do about it because of plot reasons, but finding some of the weapons a bit earlier would definitely help to make things that much better for exotic players. Even an early Crystal Shard wouldn't go amiss. But, again, the plot. I guess the biggest problem is that you are effectively forced into investing in another weapon type first, and by that point there's no reason changing over to exotic if you've already gone down one weapon path, especially with something like energy where you need to get 2 skills high, both of which would become useless once you move into exotic.

The only way I could see it being useful is if a purely psi character who had no skills in any weapon type wanted to move into exotic later. But that's an extremely niche use case.

One option might be to make all exotic weapons never degrade, which would also sort of make sense lore wise. It's not a big enough upgrade to make them genuinely useful, but might help a little bit.

I know some other games offer the ability to respec once or twice, which would definitely help in this case as you could properly respec into exotic, but that's not the way system shock does things (which is fair enough)

[6741d51804bb6RoSoDude]

Energy benefits most from Maintenance, Heavy benefits most from Repair, and Standard benefits from both (with fairly equal requirements) but less so than either. But for aforementioned reasons, if you want to rely on an Assault Rifle for a lot of of the game you may even want to bump up Maint all the way to 6, it's a big difference. I tried to also make modifications much more important for Standard with longer reload times and smaller clip sizes. They're reliable and general purpose, but you're not getting so much for free anymore. Let me know how it goes for you.

I already removed degradation from Exotic to encourage them in more niche builds, justified in descriptions with some science mumbo jumbo. My pipe dream to "fix" Exotic's problem of coming too late would be to massively expand the final cyberspace level to include more portions of Citadel Station with more combat and navigation because as it is, it's quite bland. But that's not something I'm really equipped to do, as I'm not much of a level designer.

[6741d51804d51voodoo47]

not possible unless someone makes an unstripped version of the level.

[6741d51804ecesarge945]

Fair enough. I am just throwing stuff out there.

I was not aware about the "no degradation on exotic". That was my bad.

I guess Exotic will be largely useless and there's not much anyone can do to deal with it. That's fine. There's always one skill like that (Deus Ex Swimming Skill, anyone?)

I guess Psi and Exotic will always be the abandoned unloved children. You've done a reasonable job on psi though, I just think it needs a bit more work. But like you say, Exotic is stuck because of the plot.

[6741d5180507dRoSoDude]

I mean, up to +75% damage multiplier on the Crystal Shard starting at 12 base damage is nothing to scoff at. It's just the guns aren't too appealing, what with the research requirement and subsequent understanding of worm collecting coming so late. Only so much I can do, as you say. My goal was primarily to add some diversity to repeat playthroughs, but hopefully I've at least made it so first timers don't get ripped off for putting points into Research too (yes, I do intend this mod to be newbie friendly).

Vanilla Deus Ex's skill balance was worse than SS2's (as was a lot of its core gameplay, despite being brilliant overall). Swimming would have actually been decent value if it weren't for rebreathers, while Lockpicking, Electronics, Computer, and Medicine are all complete ripoffs past Trained and Environmental Training and Demolitions are just pointless. But that's for another thread.

[6741d518051e4sarge945]

Yes, I am also a big fan of your GMDX fork

Yeah I guess you're right about the Crystal Shard. I guess Exotic isn't as useless as I give it credit for, and is WAY better still than it was in vanilla. It's just still not a great skill.

I think the best way to buff exotic weapons would be to buff or change something else, without changing exotic directly. But yeah, it's a difficult problem. Like if the worm beakers had an alternate use or something.

Also I was thinking: Should the Tinkerer O/S Upgrade let French-Epstein devices work like they used to again? Might be an actual reason to pick it in that case. Spend an OS slot to make Modify a dump stat....may or may not be worth it.

[6741d51805390voodoo47]

my own quote from the SCP topic;

power psi - instead of just not burning out, the discipline would always get released at full power.
strong metabolism - the player will also be able to process toxins, so they would eventually fade away like the radiation does. maybe no more hp penalty for smoking.
tank - either an extra 10 hp, or even better (as we are talking about being a tank), +10% extra armor.
naturally able - maybe make all cyb unit upgrades 10% cheaper (rounded down)?
pharmo friendly - maybe a tiny boost, so it would add 5 more psi points instead of 4.
pack rat - instead of just unblocking three slots in the inventory by magic, maybe give the player an extra strength point that would not be added to the regular stats, expert tech style.
replicator expert - maybe also give a bonus when hacking the replicators (expert tech style).
tinker - maybe also give a bonus when modifying/repairing weapons (expert tech style).
spatially aware - already fixed in SCP

[6741d5180555eRoSoDude]

Cool idea for Tinker, Sarge. My original idea for it was to extend the trait to Repair, but reduced nanite cost for those interactions is still boring. Though I'm wary of an O/S trait worth the same as Modify 6 (compare with 20 CMs from Naturally Able) even if it requires management of FE devices. I'll think about it.

Thanks for reposting suggestions, voodoo. My thoughts:
Power Psi - I thought it could just allow you to hold the cast at full power, or at least remove the psi cost as well as damage during burnout
Strong Metabolism - great idea. My thought was to have it double the time between damage ticks (50% damage) but this is cooler. Toxins are way more important anyway
Tank - if I can replace the +5/10 HP with 10% damage reduction I'll do it ASAP. Think I saw Secmod add a metaproperty for traits so should be doable
Naturally Able - the one-time 20 CM bonus is semi-okay IMO
Pharmo Friendly - one of the best O/S traits as is, doesn't need a boost
Pack Rat - I think this one's underrated for avoiding upgrading Strength 6 (or 5 with implant), it's just mediocre early on. Weapon/armor strength checks aren't a big deal so having a segregated bonus seems odd
Replicator Expert - already great, no need to buff
Tinker - see above. Could consider this too.

Speaking of Security Expert, is there a way to make it active even at Hack 0? I wanted that for Alarming Cameras.

[6741d518058f3ZylonBane]

not possible unless someone makes an unstripped version of the level.

Someone did.

[6741d518059ffvoodoo47]

did I completely forget? yep, I did. we should really get beta5 rolling.

[6741d51807c78sarge945]

ICE picks and Repair units are definitely on my radar after my French-Epstein device nerf, but I'm not as confident taking the same approach. Locking them to certain skill requirements feels kinda arbitrary, as there's no other item that really works like that. Instead, I might prefer just making them fewer in number on the higher difficulties so as to counterbalance the higher cyber module cost for skills. This is already the case for FE devices on Impossible, but could be more granular. One ICE pick must be guaranteed for the Command replicator hack, but I don't think you ought to be guaranteed that + level 6 crates + SHODAN forcefield on Hard/Impossible, no matter how thoroughly you explore (maybe 5/5/4/3 on Easy/Normal/Hard/Impossible). There ought to be more level 6 crates too, honestly.

A thought on how to balance this: Figure out how many of each item are a good, balanced amount for regular play, then hide one of them in a "psi pull" only spot.

One thing that always bugged me about psi pull was that there aren't really any useful items that are only accessible with it. It's mostly just nanites, some hypos, and a small amount of ammo.

Being able to get a second (or third) ICE pick or repair device through psi pull would definitely make the discipline more viable.

This would probably make it overpowered if it was also free like my above suggestion.

Cool idea for Tinker, Sarge.

Thanks!

My original idea for it was to extend the trait to Repair, but reduced nanite cost for those interactions is still boring. Though I'm wary of an O/S trait worth the same as Modify 6 (compare with 20 CMs from Naturally Able) even if it requires management of FE devices. I'll think about it.

You make a good point. The only way I could see it being even remotely balanced is if it added a "super epstein device" to your inventory, so you could fully upgrade ONE weapon and ONE weapon only. I dunno. I guess this is pretty overpowered regardless as most people stick to one weapon anyway as their primary weapon. Just anything to make the vanilla OS upgrade less completely useless would be good.

And yes, a nanite cost reduction is very boring. Even if it was well balanced, it still would not likely get picked because it's very boring in comparison to the abilities that have a more immediate impact on the game.

Power Psi - I thought it could just allow you to hold the cast at full power, or at least remove the psi cost as well as damage during burnout

IIRC, SCP already does this. If you burnout it's like you never cast in the first place, all you have wasted is time. You lose no psi or health. apparently not.

I do like the idea of holding at full power though. Could save someone from a face-melting when they would have accidentally burned out.

Another possible upgrade could instead be to remove the original benefits and instead decrease the time it takes to reach the "overcharge" zone, effectively allowing you to use your powers faster. That might be a little broken though. It's then a bit of a tradeoff, as the faster casting also gives you a easier chance to burnout. Risk vs reward.

Strong Metabolism - great idea. My thought was to have it double the time between damage ticks (50% damage) but this is cooler. Toxins are way more important anyway

I think this might be a bit too powerful and make the other toxin mitigation effects (like the psi ability and the radiation suit) less useful. But I guess if it's taking up an OS slot it isn't a big deal since they are valuable.

Tank - if I can replace the +5/10 HP with 10% damage reduction I'll do it ASAP. Think I saw Secmod add a metaproperty for traits so should be doable

This is probably a stupid solution, but couldn't you just make it give you END instead, since it is already scaled by difficulty?

I really like the idea of giving armor, since IIRC wearing actual armor and Psycho Reflective Aura are the only way to actually get armor in the game, so this could improve synergy with other builds/strategies.

If the damage resist was good enough, I doubt it would even need the actual HP buff in the first place.

Naturally Able - the one-time 20 CM bonus is semi-okay IMO

My only concern is that 20 CMs is worth a lot less on impossible than it is on easy. Obviously that's intended, but it might make this the opposite of tank (only worth taking on lower difficulties).

Giving "your next upgrade is free" would be interesting, although that's super abusable for obvious reasons and is inherently a bad suggestion.

I really like the "everything is 10% cheaper" approach, although I would personallly make it 5%.

Pharmo Friendly - one of the best O/S traits as is, doesn't need a boost

Really? I've never used it. I guess once you take the big 3 obvious ones (2 implants, extra melee or ranged damage, tank) it doesn't really make much sense to pick the other "good" ones. Oh well, that's just my playstyle I guess.

Pack Rat - I think this one's underrated for avoiding upgrading Strength 6 (or 5 with implant), it's just mediocre early on. Weapon/armor strength checks aren't a big deal so having a segregated bonus seems odd

I also agree it needs a buff of some sort. I would consider 6 inventory slots instead, but that's too much and we can't exactly go between 3 and 6.

Replicator Expert - already great, no need to buff

Really? I've never used it.

we should really get beta5 rolling.

[Visible excitement]

--

I had a bit of a think about Exotic weaponry. I doubt there's much that can be done, and this is probably crap (but might help you think of better ideas), but there might be some things that can help to make Exotic a bit less awful:

1. Make empty beakers stack in the inventory
2. Worm Beakers are replaced with empty beakers when used
3. Add an additional effect to WormBlood implant to also give immunity to damage from your own Exotic weapons. This might make this implant a bit better and give a synergy between Exotic weapons and Annelid implants. This implant only ever gets equipped rarely anyway normally - this would encourage actually using it like a real implant when going Exotic, rather than only equipping it near worm piles. Exotic players will likely be seeking out worm piles anyway, so synergising with this implant makes some sense both in-universe and gameplay wise.

In fact, if you wanted to take this even further, I could see a viable build having someone run around with annelid weapons, annelid implants, and wormskin armor (assuming it was changed in some way), with an inventory full of beakers. That would be hilarious.

[6741d51807e29ZylonBane]

SCP doesn't do anything to Power Psi currently. I'd like to make it so overloading just casts the spell, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that.

[6741d5180815cRoSoDude]

More psi pull items is good, particular those items. AFAIK the only items you can get only via psi pull are the pistol and bullets in the hole on the wall in the Recreation kitchen where an Assault Droid busts out to greet you. Maybe also a handful of nanites in the Cargo Bays if you don't want to fall to your death. Otherwise you can mantle everywhere or just shoot items and let physics do the rest. Especially annoying is that cyber modules have no physics (probably for a good reason, like clipping through the floor or something), so you can't use psi pull for the modules in the Ops heat hazard trap or whatever else.

Cast speed already depends on tier (your PSI stat widens the full cast window), by the way. Maybe I'll consider 5% cheaper for Naturally Able if possible (along with proportional protection on Tank, this would fix the highly difficulty-dependent O/S traits).

Weird idea for Pack Rat - makes food and junk items stackable too? Not sure if doable.

Love those ideas for Exotic. None are trivial but all worth prioritizing.
1. If beakers stack, I hope the filling mechanic works properly. Can easily imagine problems with the game destroying a stack of 2 when dragging over worms to give only one beaker's worth. Might be fixable via custom scripts if so.
2. Very nice, I could take a similar approach as I took to spawning spent prisms. Would be a little trickier as it would need to be after a certain count has been fired. Or perhaps it should just be one small beaker when you run out of worms? That's believable, unobtrusive, and provides a cushion for the hapless first timer who invests into Exotic without collecting worms for the whole game. I think I'll do that. Must be careful so it doesn't happen when recycling them for nanites, though! Also, stack splitting could allow for some degenerate cheesing. Hmm.
3. This one's fantastic as it gives a reason to keep WormBlood installed instead of just swapping it to eat worms. Hell yeah. However, I worry that enemies might do anti-human damage (worms? spiders?), in which case significant hackery would be required beyond a simple metaproperty .

WormSkin now requires Research 6, but offers improved 30% physical protection (same as Medium Combat Armor), 30% toxin/radiation protection, and only +1 PSI but with the psi point drain removed. It's pretty good, intended for Exotic + psi builds.

[6741d51809b7csarge945]

More psi pull items is good, particular those items. AFAIK the only items you can get only via psi pull are the pistol and bullets in the hole on the wall in the Recreation kitchen where an Assault Droid busts out to greet you. Maybe also a handful of nanites in the Cargo Bays if you don't want to fall to your death. Otherwise you can mantle everywhere or just shoot items and let physics do the rest. Especially annoying is that cyber modules have no physics (probably for a good reason, like clipping through the floor or something), so you can't use psi pull for the modules in the Ops heat hazard trap or whatever else.

Yeah it's a real shame about the cyber modules. Having CM's actually accessible via psi pull would have definitely made it worth something. Right now it's basically useless as a skill.

Cast speed already depends on tier (your PSI stat widens the full cast window), by the way. Maybe I'll consider 5% cheaper for Naturally Able if possible (along with proportional protection on Tank, this would fix the highly difficulty-dependent O/S traits).

Oh okay....I didn't know that

Weird idea for Pack Rat - makes food and junk items stackable too? Not sure if doable.

I know there's already a mod on here that does that. The issue would probably be making it dynamic. I don't know much about the dark engine though.

Love those ideas for Exotic. None are trivial but all worth prioritizing.

Thanks. It came to me like an epiphony and it all just clicked into place. It's like the annelid implants and the exotic weapons were meant to go together, when you think about it.

1. If beakers stack, I hope the filling mechanic works properly. Can easily imagine problems with the game destroying a stack of 2 when dragging over worms to give only one beaker's worth. Might be fixable via custom scripts if so.
2. Very nice, I could take a similar approach as I took to spawning spent prisms. Would be a little trickier as it would need to be after a certain count has been fired. Or perhaps it should just be one small beaker when you run out of worms? That's believable, unobtrusive, and provides a cushion for the hapless first timer who invests into Exotic without collecting worms for the whole game. I think I'll do that. Must be careful so it doesn't happen when recycling them for nanites, though! Also, stack splitting could allow for some degenerate cheesing. Hmm.

The other big problem is if you use 2 small beakers to fill up some worm ammo, then fire it, the game won't know if it came from 2 small beakers or a large beaker, which could result in some funky item continuity (2 small beakers turning into one large one after being fired, for example).

This will probably take a lot of thought and may not even be doable. Having 2 different beaker types messes with things too, so finding a way around that would be useful too. I guess you could turn all picked-up beakers into "beaker ammo", where a small beaker gives you 1 and a large beaker gives you 2, which you can then convert to worm ammo at worm piles, but this would probably not be a good solution.

3. This one's fantastic as it gives a reason to keep WormBlood installed instead of just swapping it to eat worms. Hell yeah. However, I worry that enemies might do anti-human damage (worms? spiders?), in which case significant hackery would be required beyond a simple metaproperty .

Yeah, it's a nice way to buff a *somewhat* situational implant while also giving some more depth to exotic play, in a mostly lore friendly way.

Now I wonder if it's worth making a second annelid implant viable for exotic too, so there isn't one obvious choice, and it makes sense to walk around with 2 fleshy implants. Having 3 choices might be even better so that every exotic build isn't based around the same 1-2 implants and actually have some depth.

But the other annelid implants are actually pretty decent already, so I doubt something like this is really a good idea balance wise.

Also, could you make the exotic weapons do a special new damage type, and give each enemy the same weaknesses to them as they do for the normal damage types, and make that implant give 100% immunity to that specific damage type? It's a hack though. One of the people who actually knows what they are talking about (like voodoo or ZB) can probably help you with damage immunity.

WormSkin now requires Research 6, but offers improved 30% physical protection (same as Medium Combat Armor), 30% toxin/radiation protection, and only +1 PSI but with the psi point drain removed. It's pretty good, intended for Exotic + psi builds.

Yeah. It doesn't have any direct exotic benefits though.

Also, I just noticed. In BOTM there is a corpse with an Annelid Worm Launcher and prisms, which seems like a developer oversight......this should probably be changed to something else, like a couple of full beakers. There are also numerous worm piles in the same room and no beakers. That's probably a change for SCP though, rather than this mod.

[6741d51809d62RoSoDude]

I just implemented the food/junk stacking functionality with the Pack Rat O/S upgrade. Works without a hitch on all items, including those already in your inventory (you'll have to manually combine stacks upon upgrading though).

I looked and there are indeed Anti-Human attack stims on worms and maybe some others. I already considered taking the approach you suggested, which is to create a new stim that has the same exact values and vulnerabilities save for in a new metaproperty activated by WormBlood. This is the same approach SCP took to "fixing" Localized Pyrokinesis' protection from explosions. I believe it is now possible for me to add both stims and metaproperties via DML (god damn NewDark is awesome), so this should be feasible.

[6741d5180a0aasarge945]

I just implemented the food/junk stacking functionality with the Pack Rat O/S upgrade. Works without a hitch on all items, including those already in your inventory (you'll have to manually combine stacks upon upgrading though).

I looked and there are indeed Anti-Human attack stims on worms and maybe some others. I already considered taking the approach you suggested, which is to create a new stim that has the same exact values and vulnerabilities save for in a new metaproperty activated by WormBlood. This is the same approach SCP took to "fixing" Localized Pyrokinesis' protection from explosions. I believe it is now possible for me to add both stims and metaproperties via DML (god damn NewDark is awesome), so this should be feasible.

Awesome to hear! Good to see some good progress is being made!

[6741d5180a2b1RoSoDude]

More progress on your suggestions:

Just added beakers to the Pack Rat O/S upgrade as well, giving it a special niche application for Exotic builds. I was ultimately correct -- naively setting them up to stack leads to the only one beaker's worth of worms when dragging multiple beakers over a worm pile. So I recreated the worm conversion behavior with a custom squirrel script, which produces the correct number of worms for single and stacked beakers and also preserves proper inventory interactions. NewDark is some powerful stuff.

I also implemented the artificial WormBlood immunity to the anti-human setting on the Exotic weapons. My and your idea to create a new stim type and add that to all the existing metaproperties worked out as expected. I tested it out in Body of the Many, and it is rather enjoyable to blitz through Rumblers and Annelids using the optimal setting without worrying about self-damage. Should be balanced by taking up a valuable implant slot, though I may swap its Research requirement with something else (say, WormHeart) considering the new effect.

Also, Tank O/S upgrade now grants 10% protection instead of +10 HP, I standardized Smasher O/S base damage to 1.5x to compete with Lethal Weapon, and I set the Tinker O/S upgrade to allow for FE device modding up to level 2, but I'm unsure of the last one. I'd like to extend Modify to more game objects (e.g. implants, armors) so it isn't overshadowed by a must-have O/S upgrade. If I can't, I may have to revert the suggested Tinker effect so it doesn't become a must-have.

Thanks again, things are shaping up nicely with your detailed feedback and ideas.

[6741d5180b2c9sarge945]

Just added beakers to the Pack Rat O/S upgrade as well, giving it a special niche application for Exotic builds.

This is actually a really good idea. Nice. More build variety is always good.

I also implemented the artificial WormBlood immunity to the anti-human setting on the Exotic weapons. My and your idea to create a new stim type and add that to all the existing metaproperties worked out as expected. I tested it out in Body of the Many, and it is rather enjoyable to blitz through Rumblers and Annelids using the optimal setting without worrying about self-damage. Should be balanced by taking up a valuable implant slot, though I may swap its Research requirement with something else (say, WormHeart) considering the new effect.

Awesome! Switching out the research requirements might be a good idea - as I am sure there will be some people who are totally fine with using the weapon without the extra benefit of the implant. I just hope we don't get "screaming computers" like we do with Localized Pyrokinesis. I'm not sure if that's present in the vanilla game or if it's an issue with SCP adding in the new damage type.

Also, Tank O/S upgrade now grants 10% protection instead of +10 HP, I standardized Smasher O/S base damage to 1.5x to compete with Lethal Weapon, and I set the Tinker O/S upgrade to allow for FE device modding up to level 2, but I'm unsure of the last one. I'd like to extend Modify to more game objects (e.g. implants, armors) so it isn't overshadowed by a must-have O/S upgrade. If I can't, I may have to revert the suggested Tinker effect so it doesn't become a must-have.

The big problem with modify is that the skill itself has no real depth. It's the skill you get at the minimum value required to upgrade your primary weapon of choice, then you modify it, then you forget about the skill for the rest of the game. It's terribly designed because no thought or strategy is required at all to use it, unlike the other skills. Even something like repair, a largely useless skill, has more applications like "do I want to fix this replicator" etc. People can ask questions and strategise around the skill. Maintenance is mostly the same but has the secondary effect of modifying item charge which gives it some depth, especially for energy builds. Modify isn't like that and does literally nothing outside of upgrading weapons.

FE Devices exacerbate this by trivialising the skill, but even if FE devices were nerfed or removed completely, the skill itself would still be badly designed. It's the literal definition of a boring CM-to-upgrade converter. It's not a skill. If I made a replicator that accepted CM's in exchange for upgraded weapons, it would be functionally identical to the modify skill. Okay that's a bad analogy, but hopefully it gets my point across.

This is why I think making modify more useful without fundamentally changing it (which you are doing by making FE devices less useful) is the wrong approach. The skill is still super boring because it only does one thing.

I agree with your "modifying armors and implants" thing. I would also extend modify to the wrench as well, since it's a weapon pretty much everyone will be using at least a little, and would be a nice way to get it's damage back up to what it used to be now that it no longer scales with standard.

I would do it in the following way:

- Make these items 10% less good than they currently are.
- Make modify level 1 make them how they are now
- Make modify level 2 make them 10% better than they are now

Also, another idea (albeit a bad one) would be to make more world-items able to be modified. Currently there are none. Similar to repair and hack, being able to upgrade some items would be pretty cool. Although hacking sort of already does this (cheaper prices at replicators, for instance) so I guess it is a bit arbitrary to split things among these skills. I'd love to be able to modify cameras to show enemies on the map, turn machine gun turrets into rocket turrets,  make medbeds heal without keys (although IMO medbeds are already super overpowered and I think they need major changes), etc etc. There is a lot of creative stuff that could be done here. Even quest-related stuff - upgrading the environmental regulators so that we only have to put Toxin A in half of them (this wouldn't actually work because she gives you CMs for all of them). Anything that can be changed in software (like prices) would be hacking. Anything that requires hardware changes (like upgrading a turret or camera) would be modify.

Thanks again, things are shaping up nicely with your detailed feedback and ideas.

Thanks! Once the next version is out, I will probably provide video feedback in the form of a playthrough where I detail suggestions and ideas as they crop up and are relevant. I am waiting for the new and improved version of the mod before start a new playthrough because I don't want to restart.

--

Okay I just had a thought. Since there aren't many reasons to get hack 6, and the Security Expert O/S upgrade is also completely useless, it might be a good idea to increase the hacking skill requirement for security terminals as the game progresses. This makes sense lore wise - command deck likely has tighter security than med/sci, and the rickenbacker likely has military-grade countermeasures in place to prevent hackers from disarming their security. If it required, say, hack 4 to hack command deck security and hack 6 to hack rickenbacker security, with 1 less skill to hack the individual turrets/cameras, this might make Security Expert worth taking, since it means Rickenbacker turrets can be disabled with Hack 4 at the security computer. It also makes it worthwhile to get hack at higher levels, and might even make using an ICE-Pick worth it if someone is using the Alarming Cameras mod, for instance. Same with keypads etc. Individual turrets would have to be adjusted too.

It seems like Hacking is balanced poorly in SS2. The security of the area makes no difference, and neither does the level of progression. Instead, hacking is based entirely on what "type" of item you are hacking, with Hack level 5 giving no real benefit. In some cases that makes sense (security crates) and in others it doesn't (keypads, turrets, cameras). Having instant access to every keypad on the entire ship with level 1 hacking is really odd. This also means things like the med/sci armory have to have weird unhackable doors to prevent players with level 1 hack getting early access, whereas making them require something like hack 4 would potentially allow some players early access if they invest in certain skills. This also leaves CYB to do what it is supposed to do rather than reducing all the chance using Hack.

I know, I know. MORE feature suggestions. I am full of them today. Sorry. I guess I should find a good DML guide and start making a "hacking overhaul" mod or something. Got any suggestions?

[6741d5180b69dRoSoDude]

Oh god, I forgot about the screaming computers. I don't think it should be an issue.

I agree re: Modify being a lame skill design, hence my desire to expand it into other areas. The FE device restriction just seemed essential because the skill itself was almost never worth taking, especially not past 3-4 as you could use the skill for the first modification and then use the FE device to complete the second level modification which would have had +2 higher skill requirement. It was a complete joke.

The only area where the Modify skill had a real niche is in modifying multiple copies of the same weapon for a character build relying on Repair instead of Maintenance. But this is still only going to be 10-15 uses of the skill during your whole playthrough, so it's still essentially just another gun skill as you say. Short of a Secmod-style expansion to weapon modification (which is great as it adds a lot of player expression and utility, but is out of scope for this mod), the best route is to try to enable more interactivity through the Modify skill. Right now I'm thinking about the following:

• Modify hacked turrets to change their type (we had the same idea. It's cool if niche because can already hack, repair, and maintain them with SS2 Repairman)
• Modify implants to make them double their effect but also their power consumption (OP for stuff that you can take on and off like the ExperTech or WormBlood implants, so maybe high requirement for those)
• Modify armor to do something (more resist? lower STR requirements?)

Problem is, I have no idea to get the Modify button to appear for an item, since it's intended for the weapon setting window. I was able to use NVSimpleRepair for spent prisms and batteries, but AFAIK there's no equivalent for bringing up the Modify minigame. There might be some squirrel script solution that I can look into, but I've only experimented a tiny bit with UI overlay functions. So all the above ideas may have to be scrapped, and FE devices limited accordingly.

EDIT: Hacking skill balance (at higher tiers) is something I've had my eye on too. First step was drastically reducing the upgrade cost of tech skills at rank 5 and 6, but more needs doing. More high-sec crates would help, as it is you can pretty much unlock everything with ICE picks. I can get on board with scaling security hack requirements as the game goes on, just need to make sure that hack 1-3 still has utility later on. That should be easy to implement via DML. I can do it myself, or give you the pointers if you'd like to produce your own minimod. Start a thread in Engineering or PM me if that's the route you want to go -- you'll need a crash course in ShockEd and DMLs, I can point you to the right resources.

[6741d5180bb0cvoodoo47]

the screaming computers

can someone replicate the issue reliably? because I can't, no matter what I try.