System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[6741c0f843f9eDiego]

Do devs still check this topic? If so I would recommend adding voodoo47's excellent pistol hybrid mod into the mix for SS2EE. It does wonders for enemy variety, especially at early levels.

[6741c0f844288voodoo47]

I would advise against it, this is straight up adding something that never existed in the original game, and EE is supposed to stay true to the vanilla experience (just like SCP, upon which it builds).

so, (gameplay) enhancements and fixes yes, additions no. for example, bullet holes that were not working but 80% finished yes, but gibbing enemies with explosives no, despite it making a lot of sense and being cool. making grenade hybrids not lob grenades from their crotches yes, changing them into grenade launcher wielding hybrids no, even though this would resolve a few inconsistencies. and so on.

basically, we shouldn't go beyond RealSG, which should be considered an exception, as it gets rid of an unfinished, anomalous setup that is bordering on being broken.

[6741c0f8444d7Diego]

Not that I would be able to change your mind, but I would argue what you did with pistol hybrid mod is both a gameplay enhancement and a fix.

It makes perfect sense those who get converted into being a hybrid would have easy access to a sidearm do to their occupation, namely pistol. Many of them would be using the weapon they already have instead of going out of their way to locate a shotgun, like they are going out of fashion. So having pistol hybrids makes perfect sense lore wise as well.

Also, adding it as an enemy type curbs the repetitiveness of the initial levels a bit, as most enemies you will encounter will be pipe and shotgun hybrids.

Saying this didn't exist in the original game is not exactly fair, pistols exist and they are common, hybrids of many sorts exist, only reason why pistol hybrids didn't exist even though by all rights they should exist, is obvious. (limitations, time constraints, you name it) Also, going by that logic many of things added in SCP didn't originally exist in game either, one could also argue it doesn't stay true to the vanilla experience, but you could also argue if the vanilla game was perfect, you wouldn't need SCP in the first place, so not including it just because someone would not "not vanilla enough" would be a shame. So some exception has to be made for mods that truly improve gameplay and logic issues.

EE cannot both stay true to the original and improve it at the same time. Main point of it should be to capture the intent of the original. Cover its shortcomings in a way that improves it without changing the game into something it is not. Pistol hybrid is a perfect example of something like that, it improves the game without going against the vanilla experience, it instead enhances it.

I wouldn't be able to make the same argument for shard hybrid, even though I like that mod as well its inclusion wouldn't make any sense, shards should not be as common. But as per my argument, those who got converted should already have their pistols.

[6741c0f844618ZylonBane]

It's like people keep forgetting that SS2EE will also have mod support, so they can still add whatever mods they want to it, theoretically.

[6741c0f844759icemann]

Keep it vanilla. Extras are what mods are for.

[6741c0f84487dvoodoo47]

the line had to be drawn somewhere (again, tweaking what exists yes, straight up adding stuff no). and if something is beyond that line, it won't make it in, no matter how much sense it makes.

because inevitably, opinions on the potential additions will differ - for example, I'd argue that shard hybrids would be more canon than pistol hybrids, because shard hybrids actually are mentioned in the logs. now what.

see?

[6741c0f844c04JDoran]

Keep it vanilla. Extras are what mods are for.

Yes, but some remasters of 90s games (such as Doom 1 and Doom 2, the Quake remaster, etc), do now have mod menus, so you can just load up Doom or Quake or whatever, click a couple of menus, and a mod/expansion pack is downloaded from the online server, installed, and ready for you to play, Even the PS4 version of Skyrim (not the PS4 Virtual Reality version, sadly) allows you to select and install mods from an easy to use menu, and such a feature for SS2EE might be nice. So the base game will just be vanilla (well, with SCP and suchlike), but with a mod-loader menu that can download and install the mods and fan-missions.

This would be especially good for players of the console versions of SS2EE, as of course otherwise only PC gamers will be able to use the mods and fan-missions.

[6741c0f844d3bZylonBane]

Bleah, a fecking mod pack getting hyped up in PC gamer:
https://www.pcgamer.com/system-shock-2-redux-helps-to-sharpen-up-shodan/

[6741c0f844e56voodoo47]

he actually attempted to merge the dmls, so if he did everything right (only checked a few), this actually could be safe to use.

still, it's not something an official site should promote.

[6741c0f8457faRoSoDude]

Not that I would be able to change your mind, but I would argue what you did with pistol hybrid mod is both a gameplay enhancement and a fix.

It makes perfect sense those who get converted into being a hybrid would have easy access to a sidearm do to their occupation, namely pistol. Many of them would be using the weapon they already have instead of going out of their way to locate a shotgun, like they are going out of fashion. So having pistol hybrids makes perfect sense lore wise as well.

Also, adding it as an enemy type curbs the repetitiveness of the initial levels a bit, as most enemies you will encounter will be pipe and shotgun hybrids.

Saying this didn't exist in the original game is not exactly fair, pistols exist and they are common, hybrids of many sorts exist, only reason why pistol hybrids didn't exist even though by all rights they should exist, is obvious. (limitations, time constraints, you name it) Also, going by that logic many of things added in SCP didn't originally exist in game either, one could also argue it doesn't stay true to the vanilla experience, but you could also argue if the vanilla game was perfect, you wouldn't need SCP in the first place, so not including it just because someone would not "not vanilla enough" would be a shame. So some exception has to be made for mods that truly improve gameplay and logic issues.

EE cannot both stay true to the original and improve it at the same time. Main point of it should be to capture the intent of the original. Cover its shortcomings in a way that improves it without changing the game into something it is not. Pistol hybrid is a perfect example of something like that, it improves the game without going against the vanilla experience, it instead enhances it.

I wouldn't be able to make the same argument for shard hybrid, even though I like that mod as well its inclusion wouldn't make any sense, shards should not be as common. But as per my argument, those who got converted should already have their pistols.

I have zero concern that NightDive would actually include the mod in SS2EE, but I still want to offer some pushback against this idea. Pistol Hybrid is a fine mod if you want to add some novelty (and its implementation is quite clever), but we should look at its extended influence on encounter design and balance before we claim that it's a strict and faithful improvement.

I don't really care about lore arguments as they can easily go either way, and it's easier to defend changing nothing vs. changing something from a lore perspective anyway. However, I do object to the notion that pistol hybrids actually enhance enemy variety. Consider the gameplay archetype that each hybrid fulfills:

• Pipe hybrid: 12hp, high mobility, 10 damage melee attack. Hits hard but easy to dodge and kill; a glass cannon
• Shotgun hybrid: 24hp, medium mobility, 4 damage hitscan attack. Fairly tanky, hard to avoid chip damage
• Grenade hybrid: 15hp, high mobility, 10 damage projectile attack. This enemy is a joke in vanilla, but in theory it is a glass cannon with more range
• Pistol hybrid: 12hp, medium mobility, 3 damage hitscan attack. Easy to kill, not very dangerous

What is a pistol hybrid in this context? A 12hp shotgun hybrid who deals slightly less damage, and nothing more. Same movements, same attacks, same combat role, but they die twice as fast. And this comes at a real price: pipe hybrids are glass cannons who can be very dangerous if they swarm the player or catch them out of position, but are fodder nonetheless. The shotgun hybrid is dangerous because it's almost guaranteed to do some damage to you while you're trying to kill it because of its higher health pool. The pistol hybrid is fodder, so it can do neither. If its health were buffed, then it would just be shotgun hybrid 2.0, which doesn't add much either. It's also worth noting that the other hybrids have a distinct look and style of movement to them, while the pistol hybrid has the model and textures of the pipe hybrid with the animations of a shotgun hybrid.

The other problem is of resource balance. The shotgun hybrid guarantees a steady supply of shotgun slugs, probably on the order of ~100 over the course of the game, which is a big incentive to upgrade your Standard weapons skill to make use of them. The pistol hybrid, randomly replacing 35% of pipe hybrids, will probably grant 30-50 extra pistol bullets, which doesn't seem crazy but is actually quite a lot considering that nearly all players will have access to a pistol, and granting more ammo in the early game has serious repercussions for the difficulty of Engineering and Hydroponics, which are meant to stress the player's efficiency and strategic planning. If you don't feel the sting of loss when you have to shoot your way through a room of protocol droids, I'd argue some of the System Shock experience has been lost.

Not trying to shit on the mod, I don't think it ruins the game or anything, but certainly not true to the original gameplay experience, nor is the lack of pistol-wielding hybrids a bug or oversight that needed fixing.

[6741c0f845e05voodoo47]

its implementation is quite clever

funnily enough, I would refer to it as dumb, in a sense it represents the simplest, most cut down way of getting things done, no fancy stuff, just the bare, bare minimum. think the $20 desk fan blowing all empty boxes off the belt in the toothpaste factory.

if it's stupid but it works, is it really stupid?

[6741c0f845f26ZylonBane]

Figuring out the simplest way to accomplish a goal can be considered clever, I'd say.

[6741c0f8462c5Diego]

Its like you guys don't get it. All your arguments are based on some false sense of loyalty to the original content, which was never perfect to begin with. If it was, there would be no point to use mods.


@voodoo47 - Where you guys draw the line is strange at best and that's being kind. That "strictly vanilla" experience you want to keep safe, no one wants it, not even you. That's why all these mods exist and that's why that mod pack made the gaming news. You guys disregard the fact it will never be fully vanilla, because many aspects of vanilla sucked they needed to be fixed with SCP and plenty of other mods which will be an integral part of SS2EE.

@ZylonBane - Sure, SS2EE will have modding support, but how many people do you think will be able to use those mods? How many people do you figure are using them right now? Just because you know how to use them, it doesn't mean other people will be able to figure it out or even bother. Why do you think a freaking mod pack gained so much popularity? Because it is easier to just drop it in and use it. For SS2EE an in game mod loader would help, but I seriously doubt it will be that simple. This alone proves my point, but I will get to that later.

@RoSoDude - You can talk stats all day, but they make little difference. You need to look at this from a player's perspective. If all enemies look alike, if there is nothing that visually sets them apart, would their stat differences still matter to the player? Would they even care? Answer is a resounding no. This is pretty much the case for SS2. You fight same three types of enemies majority of the game. It gets repetitive fast. It is bad enough all enemies look alike, but not having anything that sets them apart is just bad.

Balance can still be achieved with or without pistol hybrid. This doesn't have to be implemented exactly the way voodoo47 did it. So that that point is entirely irrelevant. You can still make sure player can't loot much ammo from the pistol hybrid at the beginning of the game. You can give pistol hybrid high mobility to set it apart further, so you can consider it to be long ranged version of the pipe hybrid, which would also spice things up a little.

Lastly, since it is already mentioned in the logs, having at least a few shard hybrids in the relevant map would be great. It doesn't need to be a common enemy type, it just needs to appear somewhere in the game, at least once. This is like "Chekhov's Gun", 'If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off.'  So if you mention shard hybrids in the game, player must encounter them somewhere along the way at least.

[6741c0f846800ZylonBane]

@ZylonBane - Sure, SS2EE will have modding support, but how many people do you think will be able to use those mods?

Literally anyone who cares enough to try.

[6741c0f8469c6voodoo47]

we get it, but again, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and judging by the SCP download/complaint ratio, it currently sits at a pretty good spot (if you take a look at the data collected in the past 2 decades, people mostly want bugfixes, and better AI models and textures. the rest of the mods, no matter how clever, is niche stuff, pretty much). especially because this is something that is going to potentially be played by millions. not a good idea to go all guns blazing on this.

the hypothetical SS2R is a completely different story, there, I would recommend going all guns blazing. well, some guns blazing, anyway.

[6741c0f846ac8icemann]

And the masses want to play what Looking Glass Studios felt should be in the game, rather than what the fans feel should be added. Additions are what mods are for.

[6741c0f846c0dvoodoo47]

kind of? the thing is, the masses often don't know what's good, the original devs only had a limited amount of time to form their vision, and fans, while knowing all that can be known, and having decades of experience, can sometimes be insane (which may, or may not be a good thing).

the way I see it, balance must be maintained between the three to produce a good result. hence, proper red lines need to be drawn.

[6741c0f846d3fZylonBane]

And one of those red lines is "Adding entirely new things". Grunt hybrid types are defined by the weapon they wield. So adding a pistol-wielding hybrid essentially adds a new type of enemy to the game.

Another red line is "Completely removing things". There are quite a few things in SS2 that it would be better off without (like the entire Repair skill), but Irrational put them in there, so it's not our place to take them out. The most we can do is nip and tuck.

[6741c0f846e9avoodoo47]

https://twitter.com/NightdiveStudio/status/1518452047133040640

crewmembers are getting some attention.

[6741c0f846fcdZylonBane]

Pretty good "alive" model. The real test will be if they can nail the horror face on the corpse models.

[6741c0f8470e6JDoran]

On a tangent, has there still not been a release date given for System Shock Remake, yet? I don't think I've heard anything more specific than "late 2022", and that SS2 Enhanced Edition will probably be released at the same time.

[6741c0f8473b5ThiefsieFool]

Nope, we also still rarely see much from the later levels, so it's probably gonna take a while.

[6741c0f84773clogical]

crewmembers are getting some attention.

Not as good as the other models they did, but I guess it is fine. They certainly could have done better. All they needed to do was a generic human face after all and this looks a bit... peculiar.

His eyes look a bit too high up and nose is too tiny. The way his nose blends in with his face reminds me of Voldemort, which isn't a great look. There seems to be some sharp edges on his face as well, it certainly didn't need to be this low poly. Just look at Rebirth models.

Luckily all this would be easy to fix. Here is a mock-up of what I mean:

And here is the original for comparison:

Difference is small, but noticeable in my opinion. I am just nitpicking of course.

[6741c0f8479aasarge945]

I literally can't tell the difference between them