System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[6731d8d09e325ZylonBane]

...since they already have to redo the cutscenes anyway,

Says who?

[6731d8d09e4f7voodoo47]

they could, but the question is whether it's worth the hassle, they don't have infinite manpower and time.

AIs don't really need vhots, they already have joints which can be used for those purposes.

[6731d8d09e655ZylonBane]

Exactly. Sure, some of the simpler cutscenes could be redone relatively easily, but for the intro cutscene you'd need 3D models of the Von Braun and Rickenbacker, and for the ending cutscene you'd have to reproduce that entire lip-synced SHODAN conversation. Those cutscenes would only be practical for them to redo if they had those original assets.

Since they haven't released, for example, any Irrational working texture assets, it seems unlikely they have any of the other development assets either. Now, Ryan Lesser did the SHODAN animation, but lord only knows if he kept backups of a project from almost 25 years ago, or if they'd even still be readable.

[6731d8d09ec25diego]

Says who?

It is common sense. Nightdive is a professional team of developers, not an amateur modding group who do this for fun. Existing cutscenes might fit a mod we release here, but it is not fit for an official release. Especially considering they are replacing all NPC models and it would be jarring to see those old cutscenes with entirely different models.

they could, but the question is whether it's worth the hassle, they don't have infinite manpower and time.

It would be.

Exactly. Sure, some of the simpler cutscenes could be redone relatively easily, but for the intro cutscene you'd need 3D models of the Von Braun and Rickenbacker, and for the ending cutscene you'd have to reproduce that entire lip-synced SHODAN conversation. Those cutscenes would only be practical for them to redo if they had those original assets.

Since they haven't released, for example, any Irrational working texture assets, it seems unlikely they have any of the other development assets either. Now, Ryan Lesser did the SHODAN animation, but lord only knows if he kept backups of a project from almost 25 years ago, or if they'd even still be readable.

You are vastly overestimating what it would take to recreate those cutscenes, considering how simple and basic every single one of them are. You could create a much better cutscene in Source Filmmaker. You can basically recreate intro scenes shot by shot.

Replacing/reproducing that entire lip-synced SHODAN conversation would be trivial considering Shodan in that entire scene is obviously just an animated texture. There are plenty of free software that can lip-sync it to any audio and it will look better than it ever did.

[6731d8d09ef0aunn_atropos]

Reading the discussion here made me realize that Muzman's Cutscene Rebirth was 12 years ago! 

We are getting old.

[6731d8d09eff8voodoo47]

yes we are. remember, some people here already have grandkids.

[6731d8d09f716logical]

It is common sense. Nightdive is a professional team of developers, not an amateur modding group who do this for fun. Existing cutscenes might fit a mod we release here, but it is not fit for an official release. Especially considering they are replacing all NPC models and it would be jarring to see those old cutscenes with entirely different models.

It would be.

You are vastly overestimating what it would take to recreate those cutscenes, considering how simple and basic every single one of them are. You could create a much better cutscene in Source Filmmaker. You can basically recreate intro scenes shot by shot.

Replacing/reproducing that entire lip-synced SHODAN conversation would be trivial considering Shodan in that entire scene is obviously just an animated texture. There are plenty of free software that can lip-sync it to any audio and it will look better than it ever did.

I mostly agree as there is nothing too complex in the cut scenes and there are no special animations used, so remaking them in Source Filmmaker would not be that difficult. Also, you are right about Shodan in the ending cut scene, it is just a flat texture with some effects on it, I wouldn't exactly call it trivial but it can be done. Having said that, do we even have every map that was used in the cut scenes? There is a corridor used in the first cut scene for example, I don't recall seeing it in any part of the game. That for example would need to be recreated.

Also, not every model that was used in the cut scenes might be available. For example, I remember seeing the one of the ship models floating somewhere around here, but I don't think other ship models that was used in the cut scene exists anymore. So those too would need to be remade. So I don't think it would be as easy as you say. Still, at least not impossible.

One benefit I see in remaking the cut scenes in Source Filmmaker would be its abundance of animations. You can make Googles press a button in the ending scene instead of just standing in front of screen. You can make it more cinematic. It would be cool.

Reading the discussion here made me realize that Muzman's Cutscene Rebirth was 12 years ago! 

We are getting old.

God... I remember seeing Kolya's post about it on the forums, I just realized even that was 7 years ago. Time flies.

[6731d8d09fe3ediego]

Reading the discussion here made me realize that Muzman's Cutscene Rebirth was 12 years ago! 

We are getting old.

I had no idea this even existed. It looks like had had the right idea. Nice!

I mostly agree as there is nothing too complex in the cut scenes and there are no special animations used, so remaking them in Source Filmmaker would not be that difficult. Also, you are right about Shodan in the ending cut scene, it is just a flat texture with some effects on it, I wouldn't exactly call it trivial but it can be done. Having said that, do we even have every map that was used in the cut scenes? There is a corridor used in the first cut scene for example, I don't recall seeing it in any part of the game. That for example would need to be recreated.

Also, not every model that was used in the cut scenes might be available. For example, I remember seeing the one of the ship models floating somewhere around here, but I don't think other ship models that was used in the cut scene exists anymore. So those too would need to be remade. So I don't think it would be as easy as you say. Still, at least not impossible.

One benefit I see in remaking the cut scenes in Source Filmmaker would be its abundance of animations. You can make Googles press a button in the ending scene instead of just standing in front of screen. You can make it more cinematic. It would be cool.

Naaah. None of that should pose much of a problem in my humble opinion. There is like only two ship models used in the initial cutscene and we already have of them. Other one looks rather generic, that could either be recreated or similar one could be used. As for levels, I believe we see all of them in game? Perhaps Voodoo could reply to that, I am not 100% certain. Even if it doesn't exist in game, corridor you mentioned is really generic though, any corridor with same texture would do for that 2 second part of the cutscene.

Also, I think you misunderstood, I am not saying I will make new cutscenes in the Source Filmmaker, I don't even have the new models Nightdive is making, without them what would be the point? I just gave it as an example. I am sure they will make new cutscenes and make them look good no matter what software they use to make it.

You are spot on about goggles just standing in front of that screen at the end, he could have at least pressed a button or something. That whole sequence is a bit weird and a huge letdown though. That ending scene could use lots of spicing up.

Worst case scenario, if Nightdive fails to make new cutscenes, which I highly doubt... I will try to make them in Source Filmmaker anyway.

[6731d8d09ffc3voodoo47]

again, it's not a matter of whether it can be done - most setups still exist in the maps, and those that don't can be recreated. the real question is whether NDS can afford to spend time and manpower on non-critical tasks - remember, they have the monumental endeavor of making the entire current NewDark ecosystem work under KEX at their hand, probably only having access to the original source code leak. not fun, I'd imagine. plus they want to add working MP, that will probably have to be created almost from scratch, steam integration, yadda yadda.

redone cutscenes sound like a very low priority deal compared to all that. also remember, they had the same opportunity when working on Blood, and they left it alone (and Blood cutscenes really could use a redo, they are horrifying, and not in a good manner).

[6731d8d0a0348ZylonBane]

also remember, they had the same opportunity when working on Blood, and they left it alone (and Blood cutscenes really could use a redo, they are horrifying, and not in a good manner).

But... but...  they had to redo the Blood cutscenes! Are you suggesting that they didn't redo something that I've decided had to be redone?

In other mockery, anyone here who's subbed to Night Dive's SS2 Discord should be sure to check out the old review of the SS2 demo by "Flatfingers" that he just shared, in which he criticized it for having (checks notes) mouse + keyboard controls. Yes, the exact same control scheme that by then had been standard in PC FPS for years. Just wow.

[6731d8d0a0465voodoo47]

a lot of people didn't like the new mouse+keyboard control scheme back in the day, "we have always used just keyboard for shooters and all was good, why would we add a mouse to that anyway". I invited them to a Doom deathmatch Lan party where I was using mouse controls, after a few dozens of deaths they were cured.

[6731d8d0a055bZylonBane]

Back in the Doom days, sure. But SS2 came out after Terminator: Future Shock, Quake, Quake 2, Half Life, Thief, etc. So you have to wonder what rock his guy had been living under that M+K was a weird new thing to him.

[6731d8d0a0ca4diego]

again, it's not a matter of whether it can be done - most setups still exist in the maps, and those that don't can be recreated. the real question is whether NDS can afford to spend time and manpower on non-critical tasks - remember, they have the monumental endeavor of making the entire current NewDark ecosystem work under KEX at their hand, probably only having access to the original source code leak. not fun, I'd imagine. plus they want to add working MP, that will probably have to be created almost from scratch, steam integration, yadda yadda.

Just ask yourself this, how difficult it could be if even I can do it? I am not a professional developer, or someone who does this sort of thing for a living. I am not even especially talented.

Only reason why I can say it wouldn't take much to do this is because I am knowledgeable about this stuff.

redone cutscenes sound like a very low priority deal compared to all that. also remember, they had the same opportunity when working on Blood, and they left it alone (and Blood cutscenes really could use a redo, they are horrifying, and not in a good manner).

You are comparing apples with oranges. With Blood, circumstances were different. They didn't replace the model of every NPC in game, in fact they didn't change any graphics. There is nothing jarring going on between cutscenes and in game stuff.

Not the case with SS2EE. They need to do this BECAUSE they are replacing NPC models.

You guys think it doesn't matter if those cutscenes don't match with in game models, because YOU don't especially care about them one way or the other. You love this game either way. Your avarage consumer will not think that way. This is what I am trying to tell you. Nightdive is making SS2EE to sell it, not for your benefit.

But... but...  they already had to redo the Blood cutscenes anyway!

If only you were as clever as you seem to think you are. Do these "snarky" comments ever work?

[6731d8d0a0dbcvoodoo47]

yes.

anyway, I suppose at this point maybe wait for eldrone to possibly confirm whether there is work being done on the cutscenes. attempting to persuade everybody that you're right will not get you any answer.

[6731d8d0a1160logical]

yes.

I was going to say "lol" but I suppose that works too.

anyway, I suppose at this point maybe wait for eldrone to possibly confirm whether there is work being done on the cutscenes. attempting to persuade everybody that you're right will not get you any answer.

I have so many questions. When do you think he will be around again?

There was talk about bumpmaps on discord, was that ever confirmed?

[6731d8d0a12f2voodoo47]

eldrone is probably the resource guy, so he most likely will not be able to answer renderer related questions, but no harm in posting them, "I have no idea" is the worst thing that can happen.

bumpmaps would depend on how much work they want to do on the renderer, are they going to go with DX9? DX11? opengl? vulkan? SS1EE has all those. again, depends on how much time and manpower they are willing to invest.

my recommendation would be, as always, lets see all the mods and FMs running properly first, and deal with the fancy stuff once that is done.

[6731d8d0a15bclogical]

voodoo47
I believe renderer is not SS2 dependent but KEX dependent. Meaning if KEX supports it, SS2EE should support it as well. I am only guessing here, but it probably only needs to be enabled to work. Lets say you have a texture called wall01.tga, if you also have a wall01_bump.tga game should recognize that as the bumpmap and load it alongside the texture. That way even if Nightdive doesn't do it, we could create the bumpmaps ourselves.

And you must admit, System Shock 2 walls would look damn sexy with some subtle bumpmapping.

[6731d8d0a1735voodoo47]

there is no way it's as simple as plugging the SS2 Dark chunk into KEX and be able to use all the renderers SS1EE has just like that - I don't know KEX, but I know Dark, and there are no free lunches with Dark. this was easy/it went as expected isn't really a thing when Dark is involved.

NewDark actually can do cubemaps iirc, see the earth map street "windows" with the 400 mod enabled. looks cool no doubt, but whether I love it, eeh, it's ok I guess.

[6731d8d0a1919Valet2]

I must disagree about the shodan animation being just a static texture with mouth and eyebrows stretching. There are bunch of wires on the backround snaking up and down. They can be made from scratch and put on the background layer after masking out the foreground, but the original assets would be great to have for this.

And the ending shodan has her left half unique -- not just a mirrored right half. The hi-res rended that Ryan uploaded in the past century doesn't have the left half long enough.

There are two pics taken from gog though, which have something unavailable before. But in low resolution and cut pretty heavily.
[spot.jpg expired]
[shodan_wide.jpg expired]

[6731d8d0a1e1adiego]

I must disagree about the shodan animation being just a static texture with mouth and eyebrows stretching. There are bunch of wires on the backround snaking up and down. They can be made from scratch and put on the background layer after masking out the foreground, but the original assets would be great to have for this.

And the ending shodan has her left half unique -- not just a mirrored right half. The hi-res rended that Ryan uploaded in the past century doesn't have the left half long enough.

There are two pics taken from gog though, which have something unavailable before. But in low resolution and cut pretty heavily.

You are sorely mistaken. Did you even watch the cutscene before writing this?

Wires do not shake at all. There is a general distortion effect applied on it and there is also a pulsing green light along the green lines, but that's about it. Shodan's face on the cutscene is pretty much symmetrical.

There are high resolution renders of Shodan all over the internet, putting something together would be simple enough.

anyway, I suppose at this point maybe wait for eldrone to possibly confirm whether there is work being done on the cutscenes. attempting to persuade everybody that you're right will not get you any answer.

Fair enough. Like I said, even if Nightdive fails to do it, I will. But I have faith they will.

[6731d8d0a23aaunn_atropos]

You are sorely mistaken. Did you even watch the cutscene before writing this?

Wires do not shake at all. There is a general distortion effect applied on it and there is also a pulsing green light along the green lines, but that's about it.

Did you? The snaking wires are cleary visible in the background.

Shodan's face on the cutscene is pretty much symmetrical.

Valet2 was not talking about the face but about how much stuff there is to see to the left and right of her. His first image shows that.

[6731d8d0a27efdiego]

Did you? The snaking wires are cleary visible in the background.

Ahh, turns out I completely misundersood. I thought he has reffering to wires on the foreground for some reason. My mistake.

Valet2 was not talking about the face but about how much stuff there is to see to the left and right of her. His first image shows that.

He said left side of Shodan face was unique and not mirrored as her right. So I don't think I misunderstood this. But either way, there are many other resources we could use to get a complete picture. So that shouldn't be much of an issue.

[6731d8d0a2948Valet2]

Yeah, exactly: the wiring is totally different on either side. It would be a bummer if they ignore it and simply mirror the right half of the whole image.

Here's the example, a frame from the ending cutscene, upscaled with topaz. Mirrored and normal.

[added]

Gosh, the face is asymmetrical as well.
[shodan_flip.gif expired]
[cs3_shodan_mirorred.jpg expired]
[cs3_shodan_normal.jpg expired]

[6731d8d0a2ab3ZylonBane]

@eldrone, I saw over on the Discord that you're also redoing the turrets. I'd like to strongly encourage throwing some extra surface subdivision at the turret's cap, in case you aren't doing so already. The vanilla model is prone to awful vertex lighting artifacts there due to it being so low-poly.