System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[67419c09d4382eldrone]

@eldrone, I saw over on the Discord that you're also redoing the turrets. I'd like to strongly encourage throwing some extra surface subdivision at the turret's cap, in case you aren't doing so already. The vanilla model is prone to awful vertex lighting artifacts there due to it being so low-poly.

They have gotten the same rework treatment as the rest of the enemies, I'm also working in smoothing groups, so lighting will be more correct.

[67419c09d4591voodoo47]

I have also reminded him that there are few objects that he will have to work on - the gore (head, arms, legs) as those actually have to match the respective AI models.

potentially the heart and stomach as well, we have hires versions in the Rebirth package that should be good, but feel free to check.

[67419c09d48bdZylonBane]

They have gotten the same rework treatment as the rest of the enemies...

Right, but none of the enemies have large flat areas that can cause these sort of issues. Judicious use of surface subdivision can get vertex lighting looking almost as good as per-pixel lighting, for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciARntlPhEk
Though now that I think about it, Kex probably does actually use per-pixel lighting. Well, no harm in making the new models look good in both Dark and Kex.

[67419c09d4c09eldrone]

Right, but none of the enemies have large flat areas that can cause these sort of issues. Judicious use of surface subdivision can get vertex lighting looking almost as good as per-pixel lighting, for example:

Absolutely a good point about ppl, there's a lot of low poly models in the game where the lighting struggles to find vertices to light up, like with the turret in your example.

As for smoothing groups, here's an example lit in blender. Depending on lighting, or scenarios where a sharp light is hitting the side of a model it becomes very noticable. All the weapons are getting this treatment too.

Most of the organic meshes are relatively smooth-shaded so not as many uses there, but most mechanical things have a ton of sharp turns in geometry that benefits from it.

Things subject to change, work in progress etc:


[smoothinggroups.jpg expired]

[67419c09d5f3bsarge945]

Figuring out the simplest way to accomplish a goal can be considered clever, I'd say.

Yes. My entire degree was all about reinforcing this idea. Anyone can be shown how to create software. Not many people can make a simple solution that works efficiently with little to no extra cruft.

RoSoDude
I am pretty much of this opinion too, regarding balance. I was personally interested in using the Pistol Hybrid mod because it looked really cool, but I eventually decided against it specifically because of the balance considerations.

I do feel like the pistol hybrids, as a concept, could work with some changes to the way they are implemented. I like the variety aspect, and a new enemy type is always exciting for recurring players who find the existing enemy roster stale.

Basically, if I was adding the pistol hybrid, I would use one of 2 possible approaches:

1. Don't replace any enemies. Instead, pistol hybrids would be used for very specific, curated encounters. For example, an ambush of pistol hybrids at some point in the game after completing an objective. This largely maintains the balance, doesn't result in resource bloat, and keeps them interesting and unique as enemies.

2. Instead of replacing pipe hybrids, I would use them as a "higher tier" version of the shotgun hybrids, since the game definitely has a problem with difficulty dropping off as you get further in. This has lore implications and is a bit silly, but I think would be the only way to do it in a balanced fashion. Basically they would have the same health as shotgun hybrids, do the same damage, but fire slightly faster, making them slightly more damaging overall. Once you reach ops, all shotgun hybrids on all decks have a 35% chance to be replaced with pistol hybrids. Most controversially, I would make them drop nothing, maybe a broken condition 1 pistol with no ammo. This would both slightly reduce shotgun ammo (there's already heaps in the game), and make encounters with hybrids slightly more difficult.

I don't particularly like either of these approaches, though.

It's not like the shard hybrid where it can easily be slotted into the roster to improve variety and lategame difficulty without implications. Shotgun and Pistol hybrids both provide resources, so it's a much harder thing to balance.

I made a choice to keep the geometry and texel density visually fitting for both vanilla and one where shtup/400/scp is being used, modelled digits just didn't make much sense both when looking at animations and overal complexity of the geometry in the entire game.

When you start adding details to the hands and face suddenly you need to match the rest of the geometry on the model, you'll suddenly need higher resolution textures to match that density. .At that point you've suddenly outpaced the fidelity of the rest of the game.

I don't actually think "non-modelled" fingers are the problem. It's the fact that, in vanilla, the hands are basically triangular, and so they actually look like strange stumps or fins rather than actual hands. I always had this weird headcanon where all the crew are actually human-dolphin gene-spliced hybrids, and their hands are actually fins. This issue is particularly noticeable when Dr Watts waves at you.

Having a rough but more defined hand shape would go a long way to improving the models, with or without fingers. Even if the finger are "painted on", I think they will mostly look significantly better than the originals.

Janice Polito should get a custom model based on her portrait for sure. I am sure most would back me on this. She is an important character and making her more noticeable would be a good thing.

Yeah, if it was up to me (but it's really not), I would love custom models for watts, polito, tommy, rebecca, and cortez, to match the custom models for bloome and diego that we already have, just to round out making each living character unique and bring them to life more (har har). Maybe a custom model for turnbull too, since I always found it weird that a female crew member transitions into a male-looking hybrid with a male voice. However these models would be a lot of work for obvious reasons, so I think it's mostly fine the way it is.

[67419c09d61ccXkilljoy98]

Wish they would give a status on SS2 EE, I can't imagine it would take long to put together but 3 years later and still nothing.

[67419c09d6339icemann]

Night Dive and full detailed updates on the exact state of things never happens unfortunately.

[67419c09d646eJDoran]

Sorry, posted in the wrong board.

[67419c09d6548ZylonBane]

Did you mean to post on planetsystemshock.com?

[67419c09d667fJDoran]

No, I meant that I'd intended to post in the 'Recreation Deck' board, in answer to someone's question (https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=12157.msg145520#msg145520).

On the plus side, with me as a member, no one else on this site has to feel like they're the stupidest person on the sight 

[67419c09d6769icemann]

Site. And your far from the stupidest. We all post in incorrect threads from time to time. On my phone I do that all the time, though not at this one.

[67419c09d6a7eChandlermaki]

Did you mean to post on planetsystemshock.com?

Extremely old TTLG reference detected!

Oh god is 2004 really that long ago?

[67419c09d6dccJDoran]

Extremely old TTLG reference detected!

Oh god is 2004 really that long ago?

Yep, and not only have the eighteen years since then NOT generally improved the lives of many people on the planet, for countless millions of us our lives are now worse, thanks to the ever-growing cost of living crisis, the greed and corruption of the billionaire bankers, the incompetence and corruption of politicians, Covid (which is or isn't man-made, depending on who is speaking), etc.

True, we don't have jet-packs or a cure for cancer yet, but the good news* is that many people now can't afford to heat their homes (at least in the UK), so hurray for the gas and electric companies who discovered how to increase their prices by more than 200% (and the bills are going up again next month) and NOT get shot down by the apathetic politicians who are (massively over) paid to protect the rights and well-fair of the public.

* Good news for the shareholders I mean. Not so good for the people who are having to leave the heating/electrical goods off for much of the time, or even no longer being able to have the heating on at all, but no doubt the overall logistics of the monumental price rises will make the few but already extremely wealthy shareholders much richer. Which is all that matter really. At least it is tiny amount of people who have the power to prevent or reverse the price-hikes.

[67419c09d6ee5voodoo47]

well, it could always be worse. not sure how at the moment, but from my personal experience, universe finds a way.

hence, stop giving a damn and play old games?

[67419c09d7016Pacmikey]

.

[67419c09d7114voodoo47]

just a friendly reminder - the topic is System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation, not gloom, doom and warfare. TTLG has a topic dedicated to just that, would much recommend for anyone wanting to continue in that direction.

[67419c09d735cJoin2]

Pacmikey "russia-ukraine war"

Which, as always, the crux of that issue when really boiled down is greed/self-gain.

[67419c09d74a4voodoo47]

well yes, that is pretty much the definition of what it means to be a human for you.

snip-snip soon? I'm thinking this may turn out somewhat terrible.

[67419c09d7572Pacmikey]

.

[67419c09d7685voodoo47]

and Shodan too. sort of. villains actually usually have a point.

that is how you know you are getting old - you'll start to see they are kind or right, but oh well, they are at the business end of your shotgun, so might as well play along, pretend to be the hero and save the humanity again..

[67419c09d7756Pacmikey]

.

[67419c09d79abJDoran]

... just a friendly reminder - the topic is System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation, not gloom, doom and warfare.

But but but System Shock 2 is "gloom, doom and warfare". Plus mutated homicidal humans, insane A. I., and it gets worse as it goes on!

But yes, I take your point. Sorry.

[67419c09d7b9dvoodoo47]

Give me a biomass pool to lie down in

admit it, you are just too lazy to go to the toilet.

[67419c09d7ea8RocketMan]

He wouldn't be the first.