System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[674129966bc0cRoSoDude]

I made some gifs to compare some of the FX problems.

EE trailer footage:
https://i.imgur.com/QxnW2cN.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/1SFbvzf.mp4

Steam build (no SS2Tool patch):
https://i.imgur.com/bHiVe08.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/0hS7VLF.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/Gs5JUsc.mp4

Evident problems:
-Missing grenade explosion animation, shockwave transparency is messed up, and there's no smoke trail behind the grenade projectile
-Cryokinesis projectile and hit explosion are low-resolution puffs of smoke, whereas original is blue with an elaborate spinning axis effect and better looking vapor puffs
-No shotgun muzzle flash in any of the clips (note also that SCP uses NVScript for improved muzzle flashes that stay attached to the gun, should probably copy this setup generally)
-Bullet hit effects always leave white particles, while in the original they were transparent grayish when hitting walls and blood red when hitting fleshy targets

[674129966bdbeZylonBane]

Ah, h.264 GIFs.

Using a hosting platform that makes your video clips low-res and dithered probably wasn't the best tactical choice when attempting to highlight rendering differences.

[674129966bf34voodoo47]

in short, this is an early build of SS2 KEX running the vanilla assets (and the oldDark version of SHTUP - this has been confirmed on discord. very safe to assume if they had to use it for the video, then they have to use just the vanilla assets for everything for now, because ND compatibility is not in yet).

[674129966c2a9ThiefsieFool]

Seems to be a bit of a mess.
And even the HUD is missing or disabled this late in development, for some reason.
Rather unfortunate, since its absence means that basically nothing is shown in the trailer except for running and gunning as far as gameplay, repeating the goofy original marketing of SS2 and arguably even Prey where the game is made to look like a somewhat awkward shooter and nothing more than that.

[674129966c53aPacmikey]

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[674129966c76bZylonBane]

Since this video was apparently made only to show off the new cutscenes and models, they really should have just shot it in NewDark, since clearly KexDark isn't anywhere near feature parity yet. Probably should have called it a preview teaser or something like that too instead of outright calling it a trailer.

The aforementioned PC Gamer article has had its image links fixed, so there are now proper high-res screenshots available.

[674129966c968voodoo47]

ok, now that I actually can see something;

-midwife decent.
-spiders no, they look like walking tumor clusters now.
-laspistol texture is off. hand weird.
-assassin is ok.
-monkey ok, psi amp ok.
-protocol droid ok, though feels just a bit more chubbier/rounded than necessary.
-big droid way too curvy, as mentioned, some things are meant to be boxy, metal plates are not curved unless there is no other option as this is annoying to make.
-shotgun hybrid bloated, and hard to tell whether the shotgun is a separate object or a part of the model. should be a separate object else there will be problems down the road.
-rumbler ok.
-pipe hybrid ok.
-shogun seems like a downgraded tacticool model.
-not sure whether the SFG edges needed that trimming. again, some objects do have edges.
-turret corpse not a 1:1 drop in replacement.
-worm launcher the tip/jet shape seems to be off, texture needs work as well (the original looks just meaty, not like a giant earthworm).

[674129966ce59ZylonBane]

-spiders no, they look like walking tumor clusters now.

Seems like basically the same problem I have with Vurt's egg models. The original low-poly models give them the appearance of being misshapen and lumpy. The new high-poly models make them perfect ovoids, making them look, ironically, less detailed.

[674129966d0d0eldrone]

The TLDR is: gamedev is messy.

You're also all giving really good technical feedback, we're aware of a lot of the things, but there's also other things we might've missed.
Things like wrong fonts, missing particles, requested sub-objects and more are on the list.

Visual feedback is the most difficult one since there's a lot of directions to take things, but I spent a lot of time reading everything here.

Otherwise sorry about the non-answers I'm giving.


I do have one thing I wonder about since it was brought up a few times when I didn't think it would: How do people here feel about
two handed weapons actually having the two hands, it wasn't in vanilla, but it seems a lot of people want this. A new posable hand was made that is used for every weapon now, including psi-amp, and can easily pose it into place for two handed weapons.

[674129966d5efChandlermaki]

I do have one thing I wonder about since it was brought up a few times when I didn't think it would: How do people here feel about
two handed weapons actually having the two hands, it wasn't in vanilla, but it seems a lot of people want this. A new posable hand was made that is used for every weapon now, including psi-amp, and can easily pose it into place for two handed weapons.

Absolutely not. One handed weapons are part of the aesthetic as far as I'm concerned.

[674129966d790voodoo47]

my guess is if done right, most people would be ok with two handed weapons having the actual hand(s) added, even those who don't really care or even prefer a handless model. also, handless versions of the new models can be provided easily for those who absolutely don't want this.

need to decide whether Goggles has his sleeves rolled up or not (vanilla amp model suggests rolled up sleeves, for example).

[674129966d90beldrone]

Regardless I will supply the fully posable hand for people to use for modding purposes later on, for new weapons or if they want to add two hands to every weapon.

[674129966da8bvoodoo47]

also, consistency is important - same hand model, same detail, same number of polygons, same texture everywhere.

[674129966dd38eldrone]

also, consistency is important - same hand model, same detail, same number of polygons, same texture everywhere.

Every weapon where you see the hand uses this one now, psi-amp and melee weapons too

[674129966e038Livo]

Feedback about the hands & teaser video:

- It'd probably be far easier to have two handed weapons as a default option, so people can just mod the posed hands to be one handed, than vice versa. Yes, SS2 didn't have two hands, but for better or worse, with the broader PC & console release, people who don't know the original game at all will be far more judgemental over the "lack" of two hands & other non immediately apparent graphical improvements for a retail product sold as a "Enhanced Edition". If you could press a button to instantly swap between the old/new graphics a la Perfect Dark XBLA/leaked Goldeneye XBLA then people would be less bothered, but that's not what SS2:EE is going for.

- Perhaps a few "minor" animation improvements like weapon joints so that the EE shotgun pump moves when firing, AR bolt cycling etc could be included by default? It'd be an obvious graphical feature that stands out for new players who don't know vanilla SS2 didn't have this feature.

- This may not be possible, but something like sights on weapons that "glow" when in dark areas would be neat as well.

- I only mention this as the news articles say that MP will be improved & a much smoother experience compared to vanilla: any possibilities of some visually distinct Goggles models (Gareth Hinds concept art for the different classes perhaps?) to choose from, instead of the single one used in MP? Definitely not a major priority as SS2 wasn't known for its' multiplayer but it'd be a nice little addition.

- On a related note, perhaps just the beginning cryotube awakening & ending cutscenes could be in engine ones, to allow for future mod enhancements? The other cutscenes can stay as videos IMO since they're TriOptimum promotional themed & doing 3D models of the Von Braun in engine would probably be an absolute nightmare for a small team.

End of my nonsensical rambling.

[674129966e4d1Deu sex]

two handed weapons actually having the two hands, it wasn't in vanilla, but it seems a lot of people want this.

Hopefully this doesn't come off as disrespectful, but I've never, ever, saw anyone request such a thing.
Gotta double check but even the tacticool addon mod for shotgun only has the left arm and hand, we can't see the right one.
(just double checked, the addon to tacticool indeed have 2 hands for holding the fusion canon).

But anyways, I feel like it's really not the priority there.

[674129966e91aDeu sex]

- It'd probably be far easier to have two handed weapons as a default option, so people can just mod the posed hands to be one handed, than vice versa. Yes, SS2 didn't have two hands, but for better or worse, with the broader PC & console release, people who don't know the original game at all will be far more judgemental over the "lack" of two hands & other non immediately apparent graphical improvements for a retail product sold as a "Enhanced Edition". If you could press a button to instantly swap between the old/new graphics a la Perfect Dark XBLA/leaked Goldeneye XBLA then people would be less bothered, but that's not what SS2:EE is going for.

I'm going to be brutally honest here, there will be two types of people, the ones that consider that SS2 is just too old to be worth playing no matter what you do to it and who won't buy the game, and the ones who know what they are dealing with. Expecting a 24 years old game to make sense with every little detail (especially in the visual department) is absolutely insane.
It won't, and it shouldn't even try to.
A very toxic comment on my end I must admit hehe but heh, it's going to be a game that only appeals to a very specific audience, that like I said know what they are dealing with.

[674129966eaa8voodoo47]

"why do the large guns have no player hand(s) visible" is not an uncommon question. multiple mods that add this exist. some don't look half-bad.

[674129966ebb9Pacmikey]

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[674129966ecf9Deu sex]

oh sure, floating guns is a bit jarring, but one hand or two hands really is just an extreme nitpick imo, sounds like those obsessions that make dev resources being wasted in the end.

[674129966ef61voodoo47]

obsessions

welcome to systemshock.org

[674129966f239Deu sex]

welcome to systemshock.org

Sure haha, and I'm super guilty of that as well, but it's on our free time haha

[674129966f551ZylonBane]

How do people here feel about two handed weapons actually having the two hands, it wasn't in vanilla, but it seems a lot of people want this.

Since the enhanced models are supposed to be faithful to the originals, I'd say make them one-handed by default, but also provide two-handed variants as an additional mod that could be enabled by the vocal few who care about it.

[674129966f7bdLivo]

How modular is the KEX engine with the Dark engine in terms of what can be toggled in a settings menu vs requiring a mod manager to actually work? ZB's proposal is perfect if there's literally just a game menu setting marked "Two Handed Weapons/Classic Weapons", or if a "Official Two Hand Weapons Mod" is included as an official option in the mod manager upon release. If it's anything that requires more fiddling however, then things might be an issue for less technically minded Shock newcomers. I say this as a grumpy old man who had to install mods for various games back in the 90s with limited internet access.

If the game has Two Handed Weapons purely as an optional setting/official mod, I would strongly suggest that this is made crystal clear in all the future Nightdive promo videos, interviews and preview/advance copies sent to press or influencers. Specifically mention to them that "If you prefer Two Hand Weapons rather than the original style, simply activate it in the Game Options Settings" or "Activate the Official Two Handed Weapons Mod in the Mod Manager we included in the game if you like". Also put promo screenshots & videos of this setting or mod menu as development continues.

This sounds very pedantic, but it's the best way to reassure and appease both original fans & series newcomers. Plus Apogee & Nightdive have already done this exact type of marketing for the upcoming Rise of The Triad Ludicrous Edition, so I'm quite surprised it's not being done also for this game. For example, Apogee & Nightdive just a few days showed off the optional HUD style, character portraits & display scaling for ROTT: LE, both in the menu & during game play on Twitter & Youtube.