System Shock 2: Enhanced Edition Update & Community Participation

[66eff1d8e5dcevoodoo47]

yeah, probably the best way of handling this.

also remember, EE will be capable of loading additional mods, so shouldn't be a problem to ship it with some extras disabled by default. santa hats anyone?

[66eff1d8e5fd3Chandlermaki]

It's not really a big deal to me either way. It's not like our current NewDark builds are just suddenly going to disappear as soon as EE is released. I can understand why someone with more modern sensibilities would prefer the additional hand models.

Really, the only thing I'm (kind of) looking forward to is functional online multiplayer that doesn't require sketchy tunneling software. I know it's not the intended experience especially for a first playthrough, but playing MP with other people that have extensive experience with the game can lead to some very, very fun and interesting challenge runs.

[66eff1d8e6334K-Bone]

Chandlermaki
Especially if the hilarious glitches and bugs like 360 rotating heads are fixed with EE. THAT will be fun.

[66eff1d8e6ebbsarge945]

ok I'm actually quite disappointed seeing that trailer and the screenshots.

Maybe I'm being a spoiled bitch but I expected more.

- Pistol looks okay? A bit low rez but whatever
- In comparison the wrench is way too HD compared to everything else
- Laser pistol looks bad, hand is so chubby looking it's obvious they just used the default mod
- No hands for the two handed guns? Really?
- No shotgun pump or AR bolt moving, even though it's really easy to implement and the shotgun has joints built into it already

I don't really understand what took this project so long. All I see is better enemy models, better cutscenes, slightly altered weapons and better multiplayer.

Ironically, I have the exact opposite opinion. The wrench is by far my favourite of the new models, and one of the ones I would absolutely pinch....uhhh....steal.....uhhh......transfer to a regular ND version of SS2 if possible.

Since this video was apparently made only to show off the new cutscenes and models, they really should have just shot it in NewDark, since clearly KexDark isn't anywhere near feature parity yet. Probably should have called it a preview teaser or something like that too instead of outright calling it a trailer.

Honestly, I feel like trying to shunt all their old game engines through KEX is a pretty major mistake. Every game does things differently according to it's needs and trying to get everything working on some underlying framework is going to cause, at best, a bunch of extra complexity in the engine layer and, at worse, a bunch of incompatibilities and inconsistencies with the older versions.

Even if they could get near-perfect NewDark compatibility with KEX, I doubt edge cases (like my Randomiser mod which does unspeakable things to the Squirrel VM and the engine) will work correctly.

Even games that run on Unity or another general-purpose engine are significantly incompatible with each other. Good luck trying to get countless games from countless studios all working under one common framework.

Although our understanding of KEX might be a misnomer. Since all the issues seem to be graphical, KEX is probably just some sort of graphics layer that intercepts all draw calls and sends them off to a more modern graphics stack, or something, similat to other project like ToGL or DXVK. I wouldn't be surprised if that's most of what KEX does.

two handed weapons actually having the two hands, it wasn't in vanilla, but it seems a lot of people want this. A new posable hand was made that is used for every weapon now, including psi-amp, and can easily pose it into place for two handed weapons.

YES FUCKING PLEASE

Although I am more interested in 2 hands on the vanilla models (using the vanilla hand), having 2 hands on the bigger weapons just fits. Don't listen to the naysayers. Their only real argument is an appeal to tradition, which makes them wrong by default.

It's not like our current NewDark builds are just suddenly going to disappear as soon as EE is released

Certified FROM SOFTWARE moment.

[66eff1d8e7501ZylonBane]

Honestly, I feel like trying to shunt all their old game engines through KEX is a pretty major mistake.

Actually, the main reason for wrapping old games up in KEX is to make it possible to release console ports. Any graphical improvements are just a bonus.

Although our understanding of KEX might be a misnomer.

It might be the wrong name??

[66eff1d8e781eicemann]

Absolutely not. One handed weapons are part of the aesthetic as far as I'm concerned.

Second that. 2 handed stuff is more the way of the SS1 remake.

[66eff1d8e79c0Nameless Voice]

A lot of the weapons are flagged as 2-handed in the game's configuration.  I can't recall if that actually does anything, but they clearly intended them to be two-handed.

Oddly, the assault rifle is marked as one-handed.

[66eff1d8e7b39ZylonBane]

According to the leaked source, there were originally going to be traits that allowed specializing into one-handed or two-handed weapons:

Code: [Select]

   if ((m_pPlayerGunDesc->m_handedness == kPlayerGunTwoHanded) &&
      pShockPlayer->HasTrait(PlayerObject(), kTraitRifleman))
   {
      ConfigSpew("PlayerShotSpew", ("Rifleman: Adjusting inaccuracy from %x to %x\n", randAngle, mxs_ang(randAngle*kTraitRiflemanKickFrac)));
      randAngle *= kTraitRiflemanKickFrac;
   }
   else if ((m_pPlayerGunDesc->m_handedness == kPlayerGunOneHanded) &&
      pShockPlayer->HasTrait(PlayerObject(), kTraitOneHand))
   {
      ConfigSpew("PlayerShotSpew", ("OneHanded: Adjusting inaccuracy from %x to %x\n", randAngle, mxs_ang(randAngle*kTraitOneHandKickFrac)));
      randAngle *= kTraitOneHandKickFrac;
   }
And apparently there were originally two weapon equip slots, or maybe a generic off-hand slot.

Code: [Select]

// Hmm, all this 2 handed stuff is a bit crufty... redesign at some point?
sPlayerGunDesc *ppgd;
if (PlayerGunDescGet(drag_obj, &ppgd))
{
   // if the player is putting a 2 handed weapon into the alternative
   // slot, really put it in the main slot
   if ((ppgd->m_handedness == kPlayerGunTwoHanded) && (slot == kEquipWeaponAlt))
      slot = kEquipWeapon;
}

[66eff1d8e7c25voodoo47]

the beta screenshots of the inventory also confirm this iirc, 2 weapon slots can be seen.

[66eff1d8e7f30ThiefsieFool]

Definitely remember seeing this stuff before. And yeah the beta screenshots showed two weapon slots, though we never got to see akimbo weapons equipped, just a shotgun in both slots which probably was supposed to mean "one shotgun is using both hands".

If you want more unused stuff that's actually implemented, the gamesys parameter "Inaccuracy (Outdated)" in Skill Params works if it's set to non-zero, it makes all guns spray by default, and spray less as your weapon skill increases until you have pinpoint accuracy at skill 6.

[66eff1d8e8214sarge945]

If you want more unused stuff that's actually implemented, the gamesys parameter "Inaccuracy (Outdated)" in Skill Params works if it's set to non-zero, it makes all guns spray by default, and spray less as your weapon skill increases until you have pinpoint accuracy at skill 6.

Based!

I could see this being quite interesting if implemented in a way that wasn't braindead. Imagine if Standard and Heavy had this, but not Energy or Exotic.

[66eff1d8e84fficemann]

If you want more unused stuff that's actually implemented, the gamesys parameter "Inaccuracy (Outdated)" in Skill Params works if it's set to non-zero, it makes all guns spray by default, and spray less as your weapon skill increases until you have pinpoint accuracy at skill 6.

See now that would have been great if it had been in the game. Make it even more RPG than FPS. Seen a few games have similar style effects on accuracy chances being affected by weapon skill (eg Shadowrun), and provided for an extra level of challenge as have to factor that into choice of weapons to use and how to take on enemies.

[66eff1d8e8693JDoran]

What other FPS or FPS/RPG games have a feature where you have to improve your aim via upgrades or XP points etc? Offhand I can only think of the original Deus Ex, and No One Lives Forever 2, but I'm sure that I've played others. It's been years since I've played Skyrim, but I'm certain that I had to upgrade my aim when using arrows.

[66eff1d8e88cbRoSoDude]

Fallout 3 and New Vegas tie projectile spread and scope sway to weapon skill as well.

[66eff1d8e8a2fPacmikey]

I think it sounds like it would be pretty pointless. Enemies don't have headshots, and 90% of engagements in SS2 are CQC or point blank. It makes sense in games like Fallout cause that game has long range fights and damage modifiers for body parts.

[66eff1d8e8e0eHikari]

JDoran
Strife (the old FPS doom engine game) had this. As you got upgrade tokens through the game certain weapons would get more accurate andh ave a narrower error bar on where the bullets would land.

As for the port?

I'm having trouble seeing what's so 'enhanced' about the demo reel we got t osee. Then again after the utter ignoring of feedback the community gave for the system shock remake back in 2016 (SEVEN YEARS AGO) up to and including a lengthy google doc put on their subreddit, emailed to them, given in their discord, and posted here as compilation of the feedback and discussion threads....

Why have hope they'll listen /NOW/? It's clear they'll do whatever they please.

I get it, unproductive grumpiness is unproductive. Plus part of me is genuinely interested in the technical discussion (even though some of the in the weeds bits goes over my head and makes me feel dumb because it can't be that difficult to wrap my head around.)

If nothing else if it's moddable, we should be able to fix it ourselves, just like the first time around.... in an engine that technically wasn't designed to BE modded.

[66eff1d8e92f8JDoran]

JDoran
Strife (the old FPS doom engine game) had this. As you got upgrade tokens through the game certain weapons would get more accurate andh ave a narrower error bar on where the bullets would land.

Oh Strife, I've heard of that before. It's supposed to be a good game that was ahead of it's time (mid-1990s, I think?). I've just checked, and NDS have re-released it for some systems (PC, Nintendo Switch, Linux), but not the PS4, unfortunately.

I might give the Windows version a go though, it's not like there are many new and upcoming games at the moment that are vying for my money 

[66eff1d8e961dHikari]

JDoranCame out in 1996. Same year as Quake. So, yea...

Had it come out in 95 even? Yea would've gotten far mroe attention. Very easy to play. It leaves me wishing there was more mechanically, and the latter bits get a bit maze-happy but otherwise a fairly solid doom engine game with some actually good voicework. Ross's game dungeon hada video on it before the ND release.

[66eff1d8e9b37sarge945]

I might give the Windows version a go though, it's not like there are many new and upcoming games at the moment that are vying for my money 

I can say with confidence that if you play it through GZDoom you will have a much better time than if you play it through Veteran Edition

Oh Strife, I've heard of that before. It's supposed to be a good game that was ahead of it's time (mid-1990s, I think?)

Ahead of it's time: Minor character elements in a shooter
Way behind it's time: Doom engine in 1996

The big problem Strife had was that it never really leaned into the RPG stuff. It was still mostly a shooter. And it failed because it wasn't as good as the other shooters of the time at being a shooter.

Lots of people praise it for being imsim-y, and I guess it kind of is, but I could never really enjoy it enough to finish it, since it's still 85-90% shooting, and the shooting is......ehh, it's okay.

[66eff1d8e9c9dicemann]

I replayed Strife last year. Good game. Plays nicer in the remaster, with proper mouse-look and updated resolution support etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYMOGL2EAf4

Now of course you could just load up standard Strife in ZDoom and get the same thing, but ah well.

[66eff1d8e9db8megaciv]

I'm nearly finished system shock remake and I want more!  Wondering if I should play the original System Shock 2 or wait for the remaster.  Also, found this place

[66eff1d8e9ff0Pacmikey]

megacivThe enhanced edition is basically a modpack on a new engine, mod up the game now and you're 90% of the way there.

You could of course wait for the heat death of the universe to play the remake!

[66eff1d8ea479sarge945]

megaciv
Here's a hopefully comprehensive answer:

The important issue will be mods. I don't think anyone can realistically say for certain what level of mod support the Enhanced Edition will have, because it's not as simple as adding some new graphics on the existing engine. NewDark is a complicated beast, and it entirely depends on how well it's features are implemented into the KEX engine.

If you're planning to play without mods for your first playthrough, it will probably not matter much, and it might not be worth waiting for the enhanced edition. The new models and graphics in the enhanced edition look okay, but not particularly amazing, and some things look worse than modded NewDark. Setting up the game on a modern machine and using the recommended mods list will make the game look quite decent already. My only recommendation to deviate from the recommended mod list is to not install Rebirth, because it looks worse than vanilla.

For a second (and beyond) playthrough, it's very likely that NewDark will be the go-to, depending what level of mod support is available in EE. System Shock 2 was very rushed in development, and as a result, major gameplay issues remain in the vanilla game - Exotic is borderline useless, Research is very front-loaded (getting research 5-6 is mostly a waste), as are many other skills, half the O/S upgrades are useless, nanites are abundant, and many many many many more issues. As a result of this, you are likely going to want to play gameplay mods of some kind after your first playthrough. The big one is Secmod, but I personally recommend a collection of mods, namely RSD, Repairman, QBR Breaker, Alarming Cameras, Scary Monsters, and a handful of others. If these mods all work with EE, then you're probably going to be fine if you prefer to stick to it, but if some of them don't, you'll likely have a better experience with NewDark overall, if you can stomach some slightly worse graphics in places.

Overall though, I doubt it matters much. For a first playthrough you're going to have a blast regardless of which version you play (and will have largely the same gameplay pain points regardless, especially if you don't use mods), what is going to matter is what happens with your second playthrough.

It may seem a bit presumptuous talking about second playthroughs, but SS2 is a damn good game so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect there's a decent chance you'll want to play it again, even if it's years from now.

Don't bother waiting for the remake. If it's anything like the current remake it will be pretty accessible and pretty good, but will miss some of the soul of SS2.

[66eff1d8ea976MegaCiv]

sarge945
Thank you.  I will find the recommended mod list (imagine it's on this forum), and try to figure that out.  Thanks so much!