Deteriorating Items Mod (no more item hoarding!)

[674f3df4f0250AT]

Had another idea for you.

Very different approach, probably simplest, most fair and effective system ss2 can have considering its mechanics, though not sure if technically viable to pull off.

Don't invoke any degradation whatsoever. Instead, the more items the player has picked up and hoarded in the elevator + across all levels, the more the enemy spawn density increases. Put simply, you hoard more = you get more enemies free-roaming.

Beyond the obvious considerations - whether this can be somehow fairly measured and dynamically balanced - I would imagine restoring the old system shock 1 function of Vaporising items would be necessary as means for the player to 'anti-hoard' when they find that spawns are getting a little overwhelming in relation to their current stash size. risk / reward ratio.

EDIT: further idea. if setting up a completely new 'vaporize' framework is too much of a hassle, a possible creative alternative would be to turn the little trashcan bins in the game environment into such containers that vaporize and destroy items placed in them - I believe RSD introduced ability to drop items from inventory into in-world containers, so could possibly be hooked up to that pre-existing framework.

[674f3df4f06b2ZylonBane]

Put simply, you hoard more = you get more enemies free-roaming.

How would that make ANY kind of logical sense? What is the causality chain you're imagining here?

[674f3df4f0872AT]

Do you mean as far as in-world logic and rationale goes?

It doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Pick whatever you fancy, say: the Many senses the fine gravitational changes caused by all the shit you'd stashed about and sends more hybrids about to counter the threat. Or, for want of a more serious one that could fly, that it telepathically senses your intentions and the presence of a growing firepower stash and sends more hybrids patrolling to try and counter you. Easy.

I approach this from a point of view of mechanical balancing of systems first and foremost with an understanding that any sort of handwavium rationale can always be made up (and is, time and again in games) to account for similar mechanical decisions. A overarching goal would be to discourage hoarding and encourage decision-making about what it is you choose to hoard and whether it's worth the risk rather than mindlessly hoover everything you find. Applied correctly, this could also shape up to be something of an inherent pivot for a self-balancing system.

[674f3df4f0c3fZylonBane]

It doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

This may be literally the worst possible thing you could have said.

The bedrock foundation of immersive sims like System Shock 2 is simulation-based principles, both mechanical and notional. Things make sense in an immersive sim. Physical objects interact physically. Running on hard surfaces makes more sound than on soft surfaces. Flammable things burn. Enemies don't know where you are unless they see you. And so on. In an immersive sim you're supposed to be able to logically reason about how the world works.

Capricious arcade puzzle logic like you're proposing has no place in an immersive sim. The sketchy potential handwavium explanations you offer above are only a fraction of a step removed from a dungeon master just saying "Now there are more monsters, because fuck you."

[674f3df4f0eb5AT]

You're a bit of a doom and gloom, glass half-empty kind of guy, aren't you ;-)

Still, you do have a fair point on the immersive sim front, of which design philosophies I'm not ignorant. Hence, for the genuine lack of desire of getting into too much of an argumentative exchange, please give that other part of my reply another go:

The Many telepathically senses your intentions ("We hear your thoughts. They rage for your fallen comrades you think dead").
Becoming increasingly aware of your preparations and stashing of a dangerously growing collection of resources - those despicable items of cold and soulless substance straight out of the metal mother's womb - it begins to consider you more and more seriously as a threat.
Taking preemptive countermeasures it diverts its attention and resources towards you, sending forth increased patrols towards your general location, all on an active look out for you.
If you choose not to stock up too much in the first place, or otherwise begin vaporizing already existing items, reducing your stash, it senses the threat reducing ("No metal intrudes here") and eases up, rerouting its pawns once again towards other, more pressing matters, paying you less thought.


On a by the by - and I'm saying that in full and genuine reverence of immersive sims, best of which I was raised on and which shaped my design sensibilities - what matters in the end of the day is a good balance between stylisation, immersion and rulesets, because games are not realities, not even immersive sims. One may argue that infinitely respawning foes or their spawning on top of you out of thin air 3 seconds after alarm fires off could also somewhat fall into your aforementioned category of "now there are more monsters, because fuck you." And that's fine. You work within limits of the technological framework that you have. I think the system I propose fits in pretty seamlessly in both the mechanical and notional aspect of the game.

[674f3df4f15e1sarge945]

Had another idea for you.

Very different approach, probably simplest, most fair and effective system ss2 can have considering its mechanics, though not sure if technically viable to pull off.

Don't invoke any degradation whatsoever. Instead, the more items the player has picked up and hoarded in the elevator + across all levels, the more the enemy spawn density increases. Put simply, you hoard more = you get more enemies free-roaming.

Beyond the obvious considerations - whether this can be somehow fairly measured and dynamically balanced - I would imagine restoring the old system shock 1 function of Vaporising items would be necessary as means for the player to 'anti-hoard' when they find that spawns are getting a little overwhelming in relation to their current stash size. risk / reward ratio.

EDIT: further idea. if setting up a completely new 'vaporize' framework is too much of a hassle, a possible creative alternative would be to turn the little trashcan bins in the game environment into such containers that vaporize and destroy items placed in them - I believe RSD introduced ability to drop items from inventory into in-world containers, so could possibly be hooked up to that pre-existing framework.

1. This is impossible to implement for a multitude of reasons. Tweaking enemy spawns is difficult at the best of times, and having to also track items across maps is likely impossible (QVars can help, but I doubt they can really get the job done here)
2. I agree with ZylonBane here (GASP!! I guess hell is now an ice desert!), but I also kind of don't. I'm totally okay with "nonsensical" gameplay as long as it results in a better overall experience in a game (including in an immesrive sim), however I feel like the current solution accomplishes most of the same things gameplay wise while maintaining more of the immersion (it's feasible that stuff deteriorates because it does already), so it's a better solution overall, because immersion is still important.
3. Vaporising is not necessary as a mechanic, since the Recycler already exists and fulfills the same role. Adding a "vaporise station" in one of the maps is probably not the most difficult thing in the world (a terminal you drag items onto shouldn't be that hard), but again I don't see much point, given that it's a lot of work for a mechanic that will be superceded within 4-5 hours of play usually.

I do appreciate the suggestions, though. It's very valuable being able to talk about mechanics and how they work, because it's useful for mod authors to understand the gameplay context of certain decisions. Thanks.

[674f3df4f178eAT]

Not at all, my pleasure! And I agree, constructive and respectful discussion is always of benefit.

What I shouldn't have said to @ZylonBane  in the first place, is that I don't care about logical rationale at all, which came out the wrong way and isn't true at all, quite the opposite, in fact.

Since it's technically impossible to do, as you now established, it's purely academic to continue, BUT... if you'd seen my last response to ZB just above, I think the system I proposed makes perfect and seamless sense immersion-wise on account of the Many's limited telepathy, and does not come across as non-sensical at all. The only little mental pebble to overcome is knowing that I came up with rationale after I came up with the mechanic, but that's nothing new behind the curtains of the world of art and design.