Ammo vending machines, Bioshock and stuff

[6745f8c9415d1Xkilljoy98]

You're allowed to like the game and I don't think you ought to be antagonized because of it.  So far people have been raising points that are at least common enough that they're not off the wall but if you don't agree, things could go downhill.  Especially since your rebuttal is to pick every point made and to say, As for X being Y, X is not Y! and leaving it there.  Again, it's ok if you like the game the way it is but you'd get a better response if you could explain why a given point being made is invalid in your opinion, since a lot of us feel these things viscerally and can also justify the feelings logically.

I mean wtf am I supposed to say?, people make a claim that seems to not make sense, so I make the claim that it is in fact the opposite, I can use a million words to say why something is good, but that wouldn't change anything would it?

I mean what justification have people gave?, all I have heard is people say "X, Y, and Z is bad for no reason other than I say so".

Plus I don't think this points are common as I have never heard them outside of here.

Bioshock doesn't need to be System Shock 2, hell SS1 isn't even SS2.

Anyway this is supposed to be a System Shock topic not a Bioshock one

Look I like it, people here don't for some reason, I understand that some dislike it even if I don't understand why, I hope that you can understand that some like it.

[6745f8c94196cRocketMan]

I know.  It'll probably get moved but don't worry about that.  If I pissed you off I'm sorry.  I was taking a few shots at the game and having fun with it at a point (because admittedly I laughed out loud a few times in the heat of battle, things looked so ridiculous) but now it seems you're the target instead of the game, which wasn't intentional.  I just don't want you feeling slighted or anything.  It's just a game and whether it's good or not to any of us, we should be able to laugh about it right?  I think it would be a good idea for you to develop your points more in depth rather than in breadth is all.  That would improve the pacing of the dialogue and keep tempers lower.

[6745f8c941ceeXkilljoy98]

I know.  It'll probably get moved but don't worry about that.  If I pissed you off I'm sorry.  I was taking a few shots at the game and having fun with it at a point (because admittedly I laughed out loud a few times in the heat of battle, things looked so ridiculous) but now it seems you're the target instead of the game, which wasn't intentional.  I just don't want you feeling slighted or anything.  It's just a game and whether it's good or not to any of us, we should be able to laugh about it right?  I think it would be a good idea for you to develop your points more in depth rather than in breadth is all.  That would improve the pacing of the dialogue and keep tempers lower.

That's ok I appreciate the apology, I understand that people have opinion and stuff, but I guess when someone calls something I love shit it can get to me, plus I can be argumentative and defensive sometimes.

Yeah maybe I do need to calm down more and figure out ways of explaining myself but I can't help but feel like it would just boil down to I like it. Plus I don't wanna spend all day arguing.

Anyway, getting more on topic, these pick ups are in the demo but IDK what they do

[6745f8c94203bAutz]

Anyway, getting more on topic, these pick ups are in the demo but IDK what they do

The one on the right increases your time in cyberspace but they removed the timer. The one on the left should be a data object or so.

[6745f8c94225aXkilljoy98]

AutzOk, I wonder why they removed it?, I assume it will be added back, and yeah I assumed it was a data module or a fun pack but I go through the inventory and can't find anything new after picking it up.

[6745f8c942485Autz]

ZylonBaneDayum, this aged well...

[6745f8c9427b9ZylonBane]

I mean they tried it during development but according to them it didn't work for what they wanted, you'd know that if you bothered to finish what I wrote

You said nothing about development.

[6745f8c942a00Autz]

Xkilljoy98No idea. Perhaps they are saving it for level security 3, or they ran and updated the demo just to show off and nothing else?

[6745f8c942e66Xkilljoy98]

You said nothing about development.

Yeah I did, maybe I didn't use that word but that is what I meant.

Xkilljoy98No idea. Perhaps they are saving it for level security 3, or they ran and updated the demo just to show off and nothing else?

Hmm maybe, I guess we shall see when the game comes out or if they do another demo update

[6745f8c9431d5krumpet]

frankly I never cared enough to wonder or ask the question, somethings are just there for gameplay

To a point. For example take Doom 3's flashlight. It may have made sense from a gameplay perspective to not allow the player to use the torch and a gun at the same time. But player response was negative, maybe in part because it's silly to think that a space marine would be in that situation, that they can't at least just use some duct tape or whatever. You have to maintain suspension of disbelief. So fans made a "duct tape" mod, and in the official re-release the limitation was changed.

[6745f8c9434a9icemann]

Hmm maybe, I guess we shall see when the game comes out or if they do another demo update

You do know that you can multi-quote within the 1 post right?

[6745f8c9436e8Xkilljoy98]

You do know that you can multi-quote within the 1 post right?

Yeah IK, but I use discord a lot, where your posts blend together so I guess I need to get used to editing more here

[6745f8c9437eaicemann]

Well this is a forum not discord. Completely different medium.

[6745f8c9439d5Xkilljoy98]

Well this is a forum not discord. Completely different medium.

Fair enough I guess, but as they say, old habits die hard

[6745f8c943ef8sarge945]

To a point. For example take Doom 3's flashlight. It may have made sense from a gameplay perspective to not allow the player to use the torch and a gun at the same time. But player response was negative, maybe in part because it's silly to think that a space marine would be in that situation, that they can't at least just use some duct tape or whatever. You have to maintain suspension of disbelief. So fans made a "duct tape" mod, and in the official re-release the limitation was changed.

Yes, and it's one of the worst features of the BFG Edition (although there's stiff competition for that, with the double ammo and the horrible performance and the lack of mod support)

The Flashlight was one of the few interesting things Doom 3 did. I initially didn't like it either, but I stuck with it with an open mind and eventually grew to love it, because light became a worthwhile resource, which was interesting.

Replacing it with a Half-Life style flashlight in the rerelease took away all that nuance. Now it's just a standard dark videogame.

Admittedly they could have done a lot more with it, like allow you to carry the pistol in your other hand (which would also have made the pistol more useful which is good), and I can see why people might find it a bit frustrating, but I will defend the Doom 3 flashlight until the day I die.

It genuinely upsets me that most people's experience of Doom 3 is the really awful BFG edition. I can see why so many people remember it being utterly boring.

[6745f8c94442cZylonBane]

Yeah I did, maybe I didn't use that word but that is what I meant.

Yeah, not psychic here. If you want people to understand you, use words that mean what you're thinking.

The Flashlight was one of the few interesting things Doom 3 did. I initially didn't like it either, but I stuck with it with an open mind and eventually grew to love it, because light became a worthwhile resource, which was interesting.

Let me guess... not being able to shoot and hold a flashlight at the same time put you in "the fun zone".

[6745f8c94475fsarge945]

Let me guess... not being able to shoot and hold a flashlight at the same time put you in "the fun zone".

Not being able to shoot and hold a flashlight at the same time made me make interesting decisions regarding light, such as baiting enemies into light areas to shoot them.

It was EXTREMELY undercooked, but there was something there with potential. I wish the flashlight mechanics were expanded rather than being curtailed and removed completely. It was the wrong direction to go in a remastered version.

So yes. The fun zone. Not so much in the "wow it's so great being unable to see" way and more in the "wow I have to actually work around this in interesting ways" way

[6745f8c94489cRocketMan]

I agree.  Doom 3 (the original) was awesome and somehow managed to be more compatible with System Shock than Bioshock.  The flashlight was a smart decision.  I just wish there were more places in the game that demanded it.  Using the environment to strike fear into the player by forcing them to make tactical choices between situational awareness and defense is quite effective. 

[6745f8c944abasarge945]

Eh, I wouldn't call Doom 3 a system shock compatible game or an imsim or anything. I do like the game (which I know is a controversial opinion in and of itself), but it's still pretty much a standard FPS gameplay wise with some horror elements mixed in.

The things I like about it, like the flashlight/darkness mechanics, the diagetic ammo counters for certain weapons, the interactive screens that often had secret/hidden information, the sometimes interesting backtracking, the quite well executed implementation of the standard audio log mechanic, the soul cube, etc, were all small peripheral parts of the gameplay. It had a lot of good ideas in it, but a lot of it was also severely undercooked and needed a lot more work to really be excellent.

Doom 3 is influential and worth playing. It's more than the sum of it's parts. It's also nothing special when you only really look at it's core gameplay loop, and it especially falls short when compared to more recent horror FPS games like FEAR. People like to make surface-level criticisms like "uhh the flashlight is annoying" or "oh it's just all monster closets", and they miss the point entirely because there's so much in the game actually worth talking about (positive and negative) and so many interesting ideas implemented in very barebones ways, for better or worse.

There's a reason basically everyone liked the game on release and honestly I don't understand why it's now become sort of popular to hate it. I can understand going back and seeing how outdated a lot of it's gameplay is, and how simplistic some of the mechanics are, but everyone has basically just written it off completely as inherently boring worthless garbage, and it's really not.

Keep in mind it's also a game I grew up with and will always love, so I am very biased.

[6745f8c944c04RocketMan]

It's a doom game so I'm not trying to liken it to SS2 precisely.  But playing it, it was the only game that made me feel like I was playing something made by the same people.  The logs were excellently written and voiced.  The atmosphere was foreboding and techy.  The use of lighting and sound was on point.  The level of interactivity was fluent and rich.  All things that pulled me into the game.  If it was half-baked they fooled me.  Maybe I'm easily fooled but I've played games out there that managed to pull off a lot with a little (such as Derelict or Penumbra).

[6745f8c944dc4voodoo47]

I didn't exactly love D3 when it was released - a doom game should be a fast paced minigun mass demon slaughter fest, and D3 was anything but, with its cramped levels and sluggish attempt at being a System Shock flavored horror game.

wasn't a bad game, but when I want to actually have fun, then D1/2 is where it's at.

[6745f8c945138icemann]

It's a doom game so I'm not trying to liken it to SS2 precisely.  But playing it, it was the only game that made me feel like I was playing something made by the same people.  The logs were excellently written and voiced.  The atmosphere was foreboding and techy.  The use of lighting and sound was on point.  The level of interactivity was fluent and rich.  All things that pulled me into the game.  If it was half-baked they fooled me.  Maybe I'm easily fooled but I've played games out there that managed to pull off a lot with a little (such as Derelict or Penumbra).

I'd not call Doom 3 a "Doom game". I'd call it more System Shock inspired with it's audio logs and GUI system. Comparing Doom 3 to Doom's 1 & 2 is a night and day difference. Yes it has "Doom" in it's title, but it is a COMPLETELY different style of game.

[6745f8c945265voodoo47]

yes. and that is not a good thing.

also whichever Doom game cannot get the Cacodemon right is dead to me.

[6745f8c94554eThiefsieFool]

I believe that Doom 3's design is at least partly a result of the devs going through old materials and finding the Doom Bible made for the original game, as they are known to do stuff like this when looking for inspiration.
 https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Doom_Bible