SCP Beta 5/6 Issue Reporting

[6745f5ea77fdfZylonBane]

Y'know, if SS2 followed conventional FPS design principles, reaching the bridge of the Rickenbacker would unlock a way to quickly return to the first deck. But noooo, if you want to return to the Von Braun for anything before launching into the point of no return, you have to backtrack through the entire frakking Rickenbacker rat maze to get there.

I'm half tempted to install an executive elevator on the bridge that pops out in the umbilical room. It's not like it would make the Rickenbacker's design more nonsensical.

[6745f5ea78160voodoo47]

when in doubt, minimod it.

[6745f5ea784fesarge945]

Conventional FPS design usually doesn't let you backtrack to previous levels at all, or if it does, there's usually no reason to, you're simply wasting time.

SS2 is a game where resources are crucial to survival and inventory space is limited, which encourages players to hoard insane amounts of stuff.

Being able to easily traverse the ship (well, EVEN easier, since it's already pretty dang easy in the first place outside of the Rickenbacker) would just make this problem even worse.

I guess some people might consider that a feature, but there's a reason I made the deterioration mod in the first place. Why even bother having an inventory at all if I can hoard everything I need until I need it? I have seen people hoarde every pot plant and magazine until they can recycle them all for hundreds of nanites, which can make quite a difference to the game's resource availability and is very obviously not in the spirit of the game. The inventory exists to limit the players ability to carry items in order to force them to make difficult decisions about what to keep or discard. Hoarding undermines this. At least with the Rickenbacker making it difficult, hoaring will slow down/stop when people get towards the end of the game. Giving a convenient access shaft back to their pile is not what I consider good gameplay design.

In short, make it a minimod. That way I can not use it. That said, almost nobody uses the deterioration mod, so I'm probably in the minority here.

[6745f5ea788e5ZylonBane]

Why even bother having an inventory at all if I can hoard everything I need until I need it?

Sorry, I'm just really tickled at how innocently unaware you seem to be of how central hoarding is to so many RPGs. To the point that many of them straight up give players a house to hoard things in.

That said, almost nobody uses the deterioration mod, so I'm probably in the minority here.

Because you never "finished" it and posted it to the mods forum. But yes also because SS2 is already an extremely resource-constrained game, so wanting resources to be even more constrained is... niche.

[6745f5ea78f59sarge945]

Sorry, I'm just really tickled at how innocently unaware you seem to be of how central hoarding is to so many RPGs. To the point that many of them straight up give players a house to hoard things in.

System Shock 2 plays extremely differently to other RPGs.

Most modern RPGs don't really have any resource scarcity at all. If anything they have extreme overabundance, dropping weapons, armour and items constantly, so your inventory really only exists to limit how much crap you can lug around, which only really affects how quickly you can sell things. More often than not, there's no decision making whatsoever, you simply keep whatever has the highest V/W ratio.

Having a house therefore doesn't really matter much. At most you can get rid of some alternate gear or items in order to be able to have more room to carry stuff you want to sell. Leaving an item behind in your house barely means anything as a result.

In SS2 you can carry significantly less, every item is essentially useful (no level 1 short swords that only exist as vendor fodder), and you need to make tough decisions about what to keep and what to throw away. Hoarding undermines that in a far more significant way than it does in other RPGs. SS2's deliberately limited inventory is supposed to make you ask questions like "Do I want to lug around an auto-repair device for if I might need it, or get rid of it because I need the space for batteries?". Now you can just dump both in the elevator and use them when needed.

I won't even mention how a lot of RPG's make your house somewhat difficult to access. Usually requiring travel, which often costs money or resources. Obviously many modern pretend-RPGs like Skyrim let you fast travel around freely, but even there going to your house is at least annoying. In SS2 you can just dump stuff in the elevator and access it within ~20-30 seconds on any deck. It's barely a comparison.

Because you never "finished" it and posted it to the mods forum. But yes also because SS2 is already an extremely resource-constrained game, so wanting resources to be even more constrained is... niche.

I should probably get around to releasing that. It seems to work mostly fine, it's just a case of the chicken and the egg. I need people to test it because I never release anything that only I have tested (past experience tells me that the moment I release anything that only I have tested, a million people will find bugs), but nobody is willing to test it because it's a niche mod and it's on a less-popular board that outright encourages people to not play the mods on it.

Maybe I just need to bite the bullet and come to terms with any bugs that people fine.

[6745f5ea79387ZylonBane]

...a less-popular board that outright encourages people to not play the mods on it.

I already know I'm going to regret this, but... what.

[6745f5ea794cbHans Schmidt]

First, thank you for the more detailed notes in the readme on what was changed, they help a lot.

However, i am confused by the 'tinker' OS upgrade description. What exactly does it mean to 'improve most weapon modifications'? Does this include a change to the modify damage bonus? And if so, 20% relative to the original damage or to the bonus itself? And which weapons are not included?

This could make the tinker upgrade actually a viable choice.

[6745f5ea795f8Hans Schmidt]

Also, why was shotgun rifled slug damage nerfed? I can understand the assault rifle, that one definitely needed to be toned down.
But shotgun? Its rate of fire is very low, which already limits its usefulness as a main mid-game weapon, it didn't need a further nerf.

I mean, a pistol fires much faster, and does only a little less damage per shot (with the 30% damage bonus due to different requirement), making it the more practical weapon. And more versatile to boot, since it also has ammo against mechanical opponents.

[6745f5ea796e7voodoo47]

yes, and that's exactly the idea. all weapons will get higher/better modifiers.

some weapons were overpowered, so the damage output has been toned down a bit.

[6745f5ea797dfHans Schmidt]

So, tinker is now sligtly better than sharpshooter, but only for fully modified weapons, correct? If so, that seems well balanced, and makes for an interesting choice.

How was shotgun overpowered? I must be missing something ...

[6745f5ea798c2voodoo47]

depends on your definition of better.

standard weapons being overpowered is a 20+ year old issue.

[6745f5ea79b46ZylonBane]

The shotgun nerf was inherited from ADaOB. The reasons for it are explained in adaob_changes.txt, but not very well.

i am confused by the 'tinker' OS upgrade description. What exactly does it mean to 'improve most weapon modifications'?

Every weapon modification change is made MORE. If a weapon mod increases clip size, Tinker increases it more. If a mod decreases reload time, Tinker decreases it more. Etc.

[6745f5ea79cd7Hans Schmidt]

By better i mean it will provide a little bit higher damage boost (~20% increase vs 15% increase of sharpshooter), but only to fully modded weapons, and therefore later in the game. This seems like an interesting tradeoff, and good balance.

Standard weapons were overpowered mainly due to the assault rifle. Certainly not due to the shotgun, unless there is some trick to using it which i am not aware of. Nerfing the weakest weapon/ammo in that line seems ... overdone, which is why i am interested in the reasoning behind this change.

[6745f5ea79e0fHans Schmidt]

Thanks for the background info ZylonBane, now it makes more sense.

The problem is that the analysis for ADaOB also counted with shotgun skill level requirement being lowered to 2, which would make damage at skill level 3 about the same as original (7*1.15 = 8.05). Also, the analysis completely ignores the low rate of fire (not reload), which is shotguns main weakness.
In my opinion, since the lower skill requirement is not in SCP, the damage nerf shouldn't be either.

[6745f5ea79f05voodoo47]

the vanilla shotgun shot is 20% weaker than the assault rifle shot. as the AR shot has been nerfed, the shotgun shot also had to be nerfed to maintain that gap.

[6745f5ea7a165sarge945]

I already know I'm going to regret this, but... what.

I'm talking about the stickied post in engineering that discourages people from using the mods on there, warning that they are work in progress and may break the game.

I think it's a fair enough warning. I'm not criticizing it being there. I'm just saying my mod is less likely to get downloaded because that warning exists, even though it's basically complete, so I really should release it.

[6745f5ea7a3e1Hans Schmidt]

the vanilla shotgun shot is 20% weaker than the assault rifle shot. as the AR shot has been nerfed, the shotgun shot also had to be nerfed to maintain that gap.

But AR was considered overpowered, while shotgun was not. Something 20% stronger than non-overpowered weapon will not be overpowered itself.

This shows that damage numbers alone are misleading, and maintaining constant progression in single shot damage is unnecessary. A gap between AR and shotgun does need to exist, but in damage per unit of time, and that is maintained even with the AR nerf alone.

[6745f5ea7a4e3voodoo47]

the shotgun shot should not pack the same punch as the AR shot. also, this was tested to death, and the results were found satisfactory - the shotgun still is powerful enough to remain your bread and butter weapon.

[6745f5ea7a5e6ZylonBane]

Given that most bots take multiple shots to kill, DPS probably should be factored in.

Unrelated, it's always bugged me that the shotgun has no armor-piercing equivalent like the pistol/AR do. Slugs just do standard bullet damage.

[6745f5ea7a6f3Hans Schmidt]

Honestly, the lack of armor piercing ammo is the least problem in my experience. It would be a good balancing limitation if slugs did good dps, but shotgun simply fires too slowly for that, giving enemies a lot of time to retaliate and/or close the distance. I just don't see how it can be used as main weapon.

[6745f5ea7a7cevoodoo47]

you point the tubular hollow part towards the enemy and pull the trigger.

[6745f5ea7a964Hans Schmidt]

Very funny. No one disputes its use as a side weapon to save ammo, or against a single strong organic enemy with the special ammo. But that doesn't make a 'bread and butter weapon'.

How do you use shotgun against just 2-3 shotgun hybrids without them shooting you too much? How do you use it against that annoying respawning spider in ops without getting poisoned? How do you handle an assassin with it? A midwife?

Notice that in all these situations the humble pistol is perfectly usable, as long as you have enough ammo. Multiple laser pistols can handle them as well, even though they have no bonuses against these enemies, and even a penalty against the spider. And both of them can also handle robots easily.

Maybe it is because i play with the Scary Monsters AI mod, that i can see just how much worse the shotgun is. Maybe i am using it wrong. If there is a trick to overcoming its slow fire rate (like with the laser pistols in overcharge mode), that would make a world of difference.

[6745f5ea7aaa1voodoo47]

- corners are your friends
- modify your gun to maximize damage output
- pellets slay organics even in groups
- use triple shot slug against tough robotic enemies

there you go. so yeah, cheap gun, ammo available, easy to modify, useful for the entirety of the game. pretty much the definition of bread and butter. the small SCP nerf is not going to change that.

[6745f5ea7abaesarge945]

The actual reality of the shotgun's damage aside, the weapon certainly FEELS weak. I think it might be the firerate combined with the extremely lackluster feel of the weapon, it just feels like it's not cutting through much.