SCP Beta 5/6 Issue Reporting

[6745db46054c0Nameless Voice]

I don't understand this whole shotgun argument.

SCP accidentally nerfed the shotgun, due to changes from ADaOB which were partly reverted.

I haven't seen anyone saying the shotgun in the original game was overpowered, not analysis of why it needs nerfs.

Seems to me that the accidental nerf should just be reverted, like any other accidental change.

[6745db4605698voodoo47]

no, it was not accidental. a slug should do less damage than an AR shot.

[6745db460577eNameless Voice]

Why?

[6745db46059b5ZylonBane]

IIRC, the argument is because they do in vanilla.
- Rifled slug: 8
- Assault standard bullet: 10

[6745db4605ae5Nameless Voice]

By the same logic, every weapon that does less damage than the assault rifle should also be nerfed because the assault rifle was nerfed.

From a purely gameplay / game trope perspective, I'd expect a shotgun to do more damage than an assault rifle per shot, but for the rifle to have a much higher rate of fire and so a higher DPS.

[6745db46069a4sarge945]

I do think nerfing shotgun because AR was nerfed is extremely daft. The weapons are balanced around more factors than just damage and it seems like an extremely flimsy reason to change it. The shotgun damage should only be reduced if there's a genuine belief that the shotgun is overpowered.

As pointed out previously, even with same damage per slug as the AR, you're missing out on special damage types like the ARs ammo types, and it fires much slower.

[6745db4606b6eHans Schmidt]

voodoo47 if you are insistent on keeping the nerf in SCP proper, that is fine, but could we at least have the option to revert that change as a minimod? I would try to do this myself, but i have no idea how to not screw up compatibility with other mods (realSG and the like).

From what i looked in various forums/reviews i am not the only one who thinks shotgun is only useful as a side weapon to save ammo for AR. It was already lackluster in base game, further nerf was in my view not warranted. In my opinion the slug damage could even use a small boost over vanilla game.

As for the argument that single shot damage  must be lower than AR, it doesn't make sense. Having powerful single shot is basically the whole definition of shotgun as a weapon in every shooter i ever played. It is then balanced in other ways - mainly rate of fire, long reload time + low ammo capacity, large kickback, or short effective distance. SS2 uses the first and last of these for different ammo types. So, i really don't see why it would be a problem.

[6745db4606d04voodoo47]

current balance, 2 levels of modification, standard at 3;

-shotgun/grenade hybrid 2 slugs
-pipe hybrid 1 slug
-midwife 1 triple slug/2 pellets
-rumbler 2 triple pellets
-assassin 2 triple slugs
-arachnid 1 triple pellet
-big droids around 6 triple slugs

so you can pop a rumbler in 2.5 seconds - I take the bread and butter back, this is a murder stick (the only AI that can take punishment is the big bots, shotgun really isn't the best gun for this). iirc the other reason for the nerf was the current triple setting - as it now actually does triple damage, the amount of death you can dish out in just a few seconds is quite insane.

..whatever, I'll drop you a dml sometime tomorrow, if that 12.5% is such a big deal.

[6745db4606eacNameless Voice]

If we're going with that, I can kill a rumbler with a pistol (2 modifications, standard 3) in under 2 seconds using three triple-shot bursts.
(9 anti-personnel bullets do cost more than 6 anti-personnel shells, though.)

If we're just talking slugs / standard bullets, in unmodded SS2, a slug does twice the damage of a pistol bullet, at half the fire rate, and with less skill bonus applied due to the higher requirement.  More burst, less DPS overall if you have more than one skill point.

[6745db46072f5ZylonBane]

I always wanted shotgun Triple mode to be an actual burst fire mode, like the pistol, but I was outvoted.

-rumbler 2 triple pellets

Pssst, we're talking about slugs, not pellets. Pellets haven't been nerfed.

[6745db460741dvoodoo47]

was trying to point out the shotgun is, in fact, a pretty awesome weapon overall, even with the slug nerf. triple pellet performance is part of it.

[6745db46075ffsarge945]

While I think the REASON for the nerf is really dumb (that being "slugs should never out-damage <other weapon>"), I kind of agree that the triple shot being an actual triple damage shot somewhat mitigates it, and the shotgun is still quite good at churning through enemies as a reliable damage dealer.

The weapon feel is awful and the gun certainly FEELS underpowered, but I can't argue with the numbers.

I guess the big problem is that it's counter-intuitive. People expect videogame shotguns to be big blasts of damage, with a long time between shots. That's what we're all used to. Instead it's just sort of okay-ish damage with a relatively short delay between each shot, which works out the same but feels really strange to use.

[6745db4607733voodoo47]

can't argue with that - it essentially works as a beefier pistol. but still doesn't change the fact you can wipe three quarters of the game with it for just a few cyber modules and ammo found on slain AIs.

[6745db460790aHans Schmidt]

Pellets are fine, but they are rare. A main weapon needs basic ammo which is effective against common enemies, even in small groups.
I agree that the triple shot improvement helps a lot. Previously, it was a waste of ammo, now it makes shotgun actually behave as a shotgun against the stronger enemies.

How did you calculate the number of slugs/enemy? Because i get different numbers, even counting the research bonus:
Damage of 1 slug after modify 2:  7 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 10.94

-pipe hybrid 12 HP => 2 slugs
-shotgun hybrid 24 HP => 3 slugs
-grenade hybrid 15 HP => 2 slugs
-midwife 36 HP => 4 slugs
-assassin 60 HP => 6 slugs, 2 tripleshots will help now
-arachnid 60 HP => 6 slugs or 60/(6*1.25*1.25*2=18.75) = 4 pellets

You need standard weapons 4 to compensate for the nerf, to get the numbers you presented. And each additional shot with a shotgun means a second more where the enemy can retaliate, since it doesn't seem to stagger enemies well. If you want to nerf the shotgun, increasing reload time and/or decreasing magazine size would be a better way to do it.

[6745db4607aa3voodoo47]

I didn't calculate anything, just racked the thing and got down to business - numbers are nice but ultimately the question becomes whether it works in an actual game or not.

aha, I have sharpshooter as well, something you also should have if you intend to go the shooty-shooty way.


either way, here's the code, set the damage to 3000 if that's what you fancy. gamesys.dml in any mod load location.

Code: [Select]

DML1


StimSource "Rifled Slug" "Standard Impact"
{
Intensity 8

Propagator "Contact"
{
Shape
{
"Contact Types" "Collision"
"Velocity Coeff" 0.00
"Frob Time Coeff" 0.00
}
}
}


StimSource "Double Slug" "Standard Impact"
{
Intensity 24

Propagator "Contact"
{
Shape
{
"Contact Types" "Collision"
"Velocity Coeff" 0.00
"Frob Time Coeff" 0.00
}
}
}


[6745db4607ba6Hans Schmidt]

Thank you, this will help a lot.
Out of curiosity, what do the velocity and frob time coeff numbers do?

[6745db4607cb6Nameless Voice]

One increases the intensity the faster the object is moving, the other increases the intensity of an on-frob stim based on how long you hold down the use button (and doesn't apply to a projectile.)

[6745db4607ebcHans Schmidt]

Planning my next playthrough, i started looking for more details about the changes to Tinker OS upgrade in the SCP files, and i found it is done by changing the modify script. Does this mean you have to have the Tinker upgrade before modifying your weapons for it to apply? Or is this script rerun on each reload and therefore applies to already modified weapons?

I was interested specifically in the damage bonus, so i calculated the numbers according to the script, and if i am not mistaken, it boosts cumulative modify 2 bonus to 39.57%, which is ~11.3% multiplicative bonus above ordinary modify 2. So, in absolute numbers it is weaker than sharpshooter in all cases, but it seems just large enough to bring similar effect in the above shotgun case as sharpshooter or 1 weapon skill above weapon requirement. Interesting.

A possible bug report: from the wiki, modification is supposed to reduce reload time of shotgun and grenade launcher by 33%, and pistol by 20%, but in the script it is always reduced to a third (by 66%, and with Tinker by 72%). Is this intended?

And one more thing: from the modify scripts it seems that unlike sharpshooter, tinker will not boost stasis time of stasis field generator. Is this correct?

[6745db46084e3RoSoDude]

Planning my next playthrough, i started looking for more details about the changes to Tinker OS upgrade in the SCP files, and i found it is done by changing the modify script. Does this mean you have to have the Tinker upgrade before modifying your weapons for it to apply? Or is this script rerun on each reload and therefore applies to already modified weapons?

You need to have the Tinker trait before modifying the weapon, bonuses are not reapplied when you get a new trait.

A possible bug report: from the wiki, modification is supposed to reduce reload time of shotgun and grenade launcher by 33%, and pistol by 20%, but in the script it is always reduced to a third (by 66%, and with Tinker by 72%). Is this intended?

The pistol and shotgun reload times in the SCP modification scripts are identical to the vanilla modification scripts, i.e. divide reload time by 3. The wiki must be wrong, unless it's somehow trying to account for the total time it takes for the reload putdown/pullup animation (the reload statistic only counts the time spent at the "bottom" of the reload).

And one more thing: from the modify scripts it seems that unlike sharpshooter, tinker will not boost stasis time of stasis field generator. Is this correct?

This is correct, same as in the vanilla game.

[6745db4608605ZylonBane]

TURRETS!
- Slug turrets can have bullets as loot.
- Laser turrets can have a battery as loot.
- But rocket turrets never have any loot.

What loot could a rocket turret have? My first thought is "grenades", but would that be too much of a stretch?

[6745db460870avoodoo47]

considering the grenade hybrid, which throws hand grenades, can carry a grenade clip for a grenade launcher, I'd say we are well past that particular line (the line being, AI corpses should only have loot that makes sense).

[6745db4608815Nameless Voice]

If nothing else, you can't go wrong with a few nanites.

[6745db46088f6sarge945]

They should spawn a GEP Gun.

[6745db4608ba9ZylonBane]

There isn't a single bathroom anywhere on the Hydroponics deck. Med/Sci, Rec, and Ops all have multiple bathrooms. Would it be going too far to just... add one?

If such a thing were to be done, pretty much the only place it could go would be somewhere along the far right hallway in hydro2, given how tightly packed the level is and the free space available on the automap. Hydro1 and hydro3 wouldn't make sense because they're in secured areas of the deck, and they're too tiny anyway.