demand system shock 3

[66ee84f3d5125not notaavatar]

bioshock is a overly righteous clunky fps that tries to touch the player IRL. the plot is meta, the player is meta, it tries to make you feel stupid for playing it. they literally use 9 year old girls as a game mechanic to squeeze a reaction out of people.

to their credit though it worked. the mainstream ate it up

also apparently if you have door codes you're a spiritual successor to SS2.

[66ee84f3d57a8Xkilljoy98]

not notaavatarLike I said before it's more than that and isn't that clunky. I mean it has a few bumps but the gameplay stuff was mostly ironed out in 2.

Also again, I would like to mention that not every game needs to be SS2. Hell, SS1 isn't even SS2.

I mean if it isn't your thing fine. Though speaking of spiritual successor, I'd say Prey takes it's mechanics further than SS2 in some ways.

[66ee84f3d59b0icemann]

I'd like more games like SS1 (not the remake) personally.  SS2 gets all the love.

Prey is great as mentioned for SS2-Alikes.

[66ee84f3d5fbesarge945]

also apparently if you have door codes you're a spiritual successor to SS2.

And magic powers, don't forget those.

I swear the 0451 thing is now just a sign of pretentious game design and nothing else. It's basically the developers signaling you by saying "hey, we're influenced by Good Games" without actually having to do any legwork to be remotely good themselves.

It's literally a "we're smart" dog whistle meant to make old-school gamers clap like seals.

I guess we're all so starved for worthwhile content nowadays that simply referencing the good stuff that came before is enough to make people think your game is good.

[66ee84f3d62f3Xkilljoy98]

sarge945Well I mean to be fair some of those games are good

System Shock, Deus Ex, Bioshock, Dishonored, Prey, etc are all good titles

I forget the full list but I know there are others.

Edit: These might be full lists,

https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147925
https://www.mobygames.com/group/15144/games-with-451/

[66ee84f3d65e4notaavatar]

ss games are highly influenced by project firestart for the c64 and IMO deep space nine and startrek voyager. weapon modification is very star trek. IMO it felt like playing through the same situation with different characters like obrien, worf or kes.

i noticed then system shock 2 was a heavy influence on stargate atlantis (i.e. episode where shepard basically crashes into the BOTM with a shuttle)

I think the problem is no one wants to work out complex technical gameplay problems that involve logic and behavior. They just have to throw more resources at development because they need to program a more advanced graphics engine and make more detailed environments but IMO they need a brilliant mind to orchestrate the game mechanics. I think that would need to be a core focus of the game, even put above style.

and I think a simulator game requires like... effort on the player to play within the scope of the game. They keep trying to make it universal to basically work with a 'beligerant' player that does not want to take some effort to roleplay the situation (which leaves undefined problems that emerge from certain illogical play styles that if fixed break the core mechanics of the immersive game). It seems kinda like personal responsibility. I saw this when someone was complaining on youtube about devs that allowed him to save. So they got a complaint because they put a save system in system shock remake. IMO its preposterous that the devs are supposed to nanny someone from saving the game.

Because I think alot of the people that enjoyed SS were the kind of people that were thinking about the spirit of the game when they were playing, allowed them selves some allowances when it got too hard and then had fun on replays with lots of savegames and broken game mechanics that can be exploited. But the market model IMO is now that you should be UNABLE to do anything but play in the spirit of the game because thats a bug. So the development is locked down that it ends up not being fun.

like we basically knew that we had to make the game fun and immersive with effort because everything was kinda janky like that. I don't think you can get away from that though. But some people think they can essentially develop like a digital drug or something that is guaranteed enjoyment, which is IMO a fallacy

[66ee84f3d6807fox]

Games that allow for a lot of exploration and freedom of choice mean that many people won't see large portions at all on their one and usually only playthrough but they all have to be designed and presented equally well and detailed to work for those players who end up seeing them. That means a lot of "potentially wasted money" in the minds of greedy suits. I think that is one of the aspects that often work against devs that are looking to create an immersive simulation-type of game - especially in the AAA realm where everything is expensive and getting away with cutting corners is far more difficult.

[66ee84f3d69fbJoin2]

Lol, good to see we're still having these arguments. Bioshock is the single biggest sellout in gaming history, its gameplay is utterly retarded - purely an illusion that any of it has any point or relevance, and is otherwise pretentious and lame. There's peak irony in a game presenting itself to be mature and intelligent in its themes while its gameplay is utterly retarded. To be fair though, that sums up a lot of games made in that era and thereafter.

Ultimately a game for thoroughly mediocre people, and Irrational games should be ashamed.

[66ee84f3d6d4fJoin2]

It's literally a "we're smart" dog whistle meant to make old-school gamers clap like seals.

Got a hearty chuckle out of me with that one.

And yes, agreed. This style of game design has been dead for decades, with Arx Fatalis being the last worthy attempt in my book. Prey comes closest of all this modern sellout trash, but it's just too compromised.

[66ee84f3d6f0cZylonBane]

Dude what. Prey expanded on SS2's mechanics in almost every way. How on earth do you figured it was compromised?

[66ee84f3d72ccicemann]

Ultimately a game for thoroughly mediocre people, and Irrational games should be ashamed.

I'm currently replaying the Bioshock games for the 1st time in years and I completely disagree. The first game in particular I would call as the most "System Shock-like" with the ability to go back and forth between levels, and the overall feel of it all. Quite fun running around with just the wrench. Especially once you have the camouflage tonic.

Second game is it's own beast. Still non-linear within the levels, but follows a set path in the level structure and no major side characters (first game had LOTS), definite difficulty jump especially in the Minerva's Den DLC. The Protector Trials (which comes with Minerva) is really damn fun.

Playing the games nowadays I've found them both to be excellent games. Sure their not System Shock but who cares. Their FAR better than Re-Shock, with quite interesting stories, though I did find Sofia Lamb in BS2 a bit annoying and contradictory. BS Infinite is the major low point for me due to it being a pure FPS.

[66ee84f3d775dZylonBane]

the ability to go back and forth between levels,

Kind of a low bar to clear there.

and the overall feel of it all.

And now we've entered the realm of "Did we even play the same game?" SS2 feels like a game that takes its own premise seriously. It's packed with varied threats... the reprogrammed security robots, the annelids who want to turn you into biomass, the midwives who want to protect the children, the protocol droids who just want to help you, and the resentful monkeys. All of them stalking you through the broken-down corridors of a high-tech starship.

Rapture, on the other hand, feels like an amusement park populated by methed-out carnies. It's all excessively garish and grotesque and silly and MY DADDY'S SMARTER THAN YOU. It's a world that doesn't bear up to the slightest logical scrutiny, full of game systems transplanted wholesale from SS2, where they made sense, to the much more low-tech Rapture, where they don't.

But of course, this is exactly how Bioshock attained such unwarranted mainstream popularity, because it gives no shits about plausible worldbuilding, instead focusing on amusing the player. Look at the Little Sisters, they're so creepy and adorable! Look at the Big Daddies, they're big dudes in goofy diving suits! Look at the Splicers, they so crazy! Kill 'em all, it's easy! Shapes and colors! The entire game is a carnival barker show. The only thing it pretends to give you to think about boils down to "Objectivism bad", which most people figure out before they're old enough to drive.

[66ee84f3d7c1bJoin2]

Dude what. Prey expanded on SS2's mechanics in almost every way. How on earth do you figured it was compromised?

Glad you asked.

You can get all upgrades in a single playthrough, making you OP as hell and removing specialization, having to actually think about your build, and sullying replayability. This is not what any classic immersive sim did, and for plenty good reason.

Objective markers. I won't complain about object highlights though, probably neccessary given the level of environmental detail.

Removed fabrication license limits, weapon durability & negative status effects is an obvious compromise. Status effects and degradation was later brought back in a laughable so-called hardcore mode. Even Fallout 4 is more hardcore than this. See its hardcore mode which features like 200 changes. Here you just have these features reenabled, and seemingly untested as weapons almost never even break.

The enemy design. Firstly it plays it absurdly safe. Enemies almost always are only ever present patrolling the center walkways, rarely in side rooms, scripted ambushes, and so forth. Aside from mimics, which are largely harmless. Then, there is no high tier enemy types (c reaver, milbot, las. turret etc for shock equivalents). Sure there's the nightmare but it is a joke and rarely seen. Combine this with minimal enemy re/spawning + how OP the player can get and you have a rather pathetic second half of the game in particular.

This last one is not proof of compromise, but rather simply pussified/soyboy/feminized design direction: There's like three guns. Quite the downgrade from classic standards, don't you think?

I have numerous other issues with the game, such as the exterior of the station being similarly pathetic in design, or lame lesbian romances, but I am attempting to remain as objective as possible so I'll stop there.
It's a respectable attempt overall, but definitely compromised and could have been far better.

Luckily, a mod exists that fixes almost every issue I had with the game, and to my delight even goes beyond that. Makes the game a classic. It's extremely hardcore though, so much so that if you're new, easy difficulty is a must (+ hardcore mode enabled). Anyway, it's far too hardcore for Bioshock types, and too much for the average SS2 fan too. This mod is called 'Prey for Death 2', and it saved the game for me that I had otherwise written off. I have my System Shock 3.

[66ee84f3d7e34icemann]

Zylon:

Well that it all comes down to how you look on it all. Absolutely the world of Bioshock makes no sense when thought on seriously. I often was thinking on it as I was playing both games. There is the world Ryan describes vs how it sounds in the audio logs, and their polar opposites. I can't see how it would work in practice at all. It does get explained a bit more in BS2 but only in the text info hidden away in the help menu.

I was more meaning in the gameplay loop and play styles. So in SS2 I would explore an area, hacking stuff I come across (turrets and locked containers mostly), loot whats worth grabbing, fight or hide from enemies stealthy, take out any cameras otherwise a horde of enemies will show up within a given timer, grab and listen to any audio logs, buy stuff from vending machines, get points to use at upgrade machines. If psi class use abilities where needed.

Bioshock - More or less exactly the same thing except hacking the cameras (which I wish was in SS2) and use of psi-stuff or plasmids in BS's case is a must.

[66ee84f3d8012Join2]

Also, expanded SS2 mechanics in almost every way...sure, almost, slightly, but systems and overall design execution is weak. Where's the enemy respawning? Where is the weapon degradation worth a damn? Where is the currency and vending machines? Replaced with a cool but broken fab system that gives you infinite ammo and neuromods because they removed the fab licenses last minute. The RPG systems, sure, a little expansion maybe (not really), but it's all ruined by giving you everything in one run and the game being largely super easy anyway. What happened to radiation, toxins, and other environmental hazards? They exist but not in any meaningful way. Where's the guns lol. Where's the enemies? Why do i have 70 medkits and 40 suit repair kits? And how does that relate to upgrades that improves both those things? Terribly. At the end of the day SS2 is in no danger of being knocked off its pedestal as the dev put it in his design doc:

"SS2 the King of Immersive Sims"
-Raphael Colantonio

Prey is the king of compromised Immersive Sims. Which is still commendable.

[66ee84f3d889fXkilljoy98]

Lol, good to see we're still having these arguments. Bioshock is the single biggest sellout in gaming history, its gameplay is utterly retarded - purely an illusion that any of it has any point or relevance, and is otherwise pretentious and lame. There's peak irony in a game presenting itself to be mature and intelligent in its themes while its gameplay is utterly retarded. To be fair though, that sums up a lot of games made in that era and thereafter.

Ultimately a game for thoroughly mediocre people, and Irrational games should be ashamed.

It isn't mediocre, it is loved for a reason and the gameplay is good. It is easier than SS2 overall but not every game has to be hard

Kind of a low bar to clear there.
And now we've entered the realm of "Did we even play the same game?" SS2 feels like a game that takes its own premise seriously. It's packed with varied threats... the reprogrammed security robots, the annelids who want to turn you into biomass, the midwives who want to protect the children, the protocol droids who just want to help you, and the resentful monkeys. All of them stalking you through the broken-down corridors of a high-tech starship.

Rapture, on the other hand, feels like an amusement park populated by methed-out carnies. It's all excessively garish and grotesque and silly and MY DADDY'S SMARTER THAN YOU. It's a world that doesn't bear up to the slightest logical scrutiny, full of game systems transplanted wholesale from SS2, where they made sense, to the much more low-tech Rapture, where they don't.

But of course, this is exactly how Bioshock attained such unwarranted mainstream popularity, because it gives no shits about plausible worldbuilding, instead focusing on amusing the player. Look at the Little Sisters, they're so creepy and adorable! Look at the Big Daddies, they're big dudes in goofy diving suits! Look at the Splicers, they so crazy! Kill 'em all, it's easy! Shapes and colors! The entire game is a carnival barker show. The only thing it pretends to give you to think about boils down to "Objectivism bad", which most people figure out before they're old enough to drive.

Bioshock does take itself seriously and it DOES make sense. I think it is more of a case that you didn't get drawn into it and somehow found it unbelievable for the story, which imo would take ignoring all the details put in. There is FAR more to it than objectivism bad. It's popularity is warranted as people don't just like things for no reason (that's dumb), and it isn't an amusement park but it feels like a real place since it's worldbuilding is well done and makes sense. Seriously there is an explanation for nearly everything. It isn't excessive either as the world makes sense as it is laid out.

It makes logical sense that they exist in the world because it is explained!, the game tells you this.

I mean I could just as easily call SS2 outlandish and say that it's all just nonsense. It's only about how you look at it

Plus biases against the game aren't helping

But to reiterate your own point, no I don't think you did play the same game because Bioshock is a great series, even if not for everyone. Hell look at it as its own game for once and stop comparing it to SS2.

To think that Bioshock is any more unbelievable than any other setting is laughable given the efforts it puts in.

Besides, even if it does get a few things wrong WHO CARES?, you can enjoy something even if it doesn't make perfect sense. I mean it is a different world so it might even work differently than our own.

The way I see it, is if there is effort put into explaining stuff and you still ignore it or get a different tone than intended, that is more of a you thing than anything to do with the game.

You want to talk about a game with ACTUAL bad world building, go play starfield

[66ee84f3d8a78icemann]

There is saying that if "you take everything too seriously, you destroy everything". That'd be my tip.

Very few games make complete sense. Most don't in one way or another, or not at all. Even Prey has lots of inaccuracies and contradictions, but who cares. Just enjoy it for what it is.

Same thing for a lot of films, where it's far better to switch your brain off to better enjoy it vs thinking everything through seriously where you'd end up completely hating an otherwise great film.

[66ee84f3d8d04Xkilljoy98]

icemannExactly, that is another good point. You shouldn't compare things to reality all the time as it isn't needed to enjoy something. As long as it makes internally enough sense and is enjoyable that is enough for me.

Plus worlds can work differently from our own

[66ee84f3d8e18Join2]

Noooo we've lost Icemann. He was good dude. Shame he had to go out like that.

[66ee84f3d8fe1icemann]

Don't get me wrong, I will praise System Shock to my dying breath. It is a fantastic series (not counting SSR) with rich stories, characters and gameplay. So for me that's my starting benchmark with all 10s. Prey is easily my next fave after that, as it's so similar but then different enough at the same time to be it's own thing.

What comes after may not be to that same standard, but that doesn't make it bad. Just not as good and may have stuff of it's own that's interesting to me. I find the idea of making a city under the ocean quite interesting, a society of pursuing ones passions to their fullest without restraint interesting (though in actuality that is not at all what went on), the stuff about A.D.A.M or life essence being usable to enable new abilities quite cool. How it all led to the gradual collapse of Rapture is also quite interesting.

Is that as interesting as the collective vs the individual moral quandaries from SS2? Can't really be compared as it's a completely different subject.

[66ee84f3d9186Join2]

I explained before, on a fundamental level Bioshock is a terrible game. You of all people should get this, as an 80s gamer. In Bioshock, you have god mode by default in the form of vita chambers, which before you say they're the same as SS2, nope, the execution is completely different. And lets not forget the big yellow arrow of retard. There is little to talk about otherwise. Shoot the same enemy type over and over with janky pea shooters, rummage through bins for trash you don't need, and play pipe dream.
And I'm just talking about the gameplay. ZylonBane is covering execution of writing, believability, thematic substance etc.

[66ee84f3d94b5Xkilljoy98]

Join2Being easier doesn't make a game bad, so no it isn't a bad game. It's just a game you don't prefer.

Hell, I actually prefer easier games sometimes since I can just relax and enjoy it and not get endlessly frustrated like I do in the souls games for example.

Plus with BS you can turn the arrow off and the difficulty up. Not every game has to be SS2, that needs to be stated

I get that this is a SS site but I still acknowledge that those games aren't perfect but I do love them

SS1 isn't that hard of a game when you think about it since you have plenty of supplies nearly all the time

[66ee84f3d960aJoin2]

There's a difference between a game being "easier" and literally running around with what is essentialy God mode + GPS. It is mindless and unengaging, unless the player isn't all there in the first place. Pay attention please.

[66ee84f3d984eXkilljoy98]

Join2It isn't god mode as there is some challenge unless you have played the game a bunch of times (But that's any game), besides you can turn vita chambers off, difficulty up, and arrow off. Nothing is stopping you