demand system shock 3

[67312653cff4bXkilljoy98]

PacmikeyWell agree to disagree as I am fine with it existing as opposed to not at all, but I will give you that exposure to something can sometimes make it harder to get excited, though still having a healthy outlet to view and process sexual feelings is important. Plus the past had plenty of ways to get or see sex so it isn't just a modern thing.

Also word of advise for this thread, often times arguing can make one feel worse than better : /

[67312653d0215voodoo47]

you don't have to have a wing to be a realist. porn isn't good. just like mcdonald's, probably better than starving to death if there is nothing else, but good, no, definitely not.

and promoting these kinds of behaviors is foolish and destructive. whatever business you need to care of, do it in your bedroom, and don't take it outside. and, to keep it balanced, as long as you do that, no individual or institution should be allowed to have a say in that.

howgh.

[67312653d054aXkilljoy98]

voodoo47I mean sure sex with someone is going to be better, I am just saying that it has a purpose in some cases, such as when one is in the mood and no one is around. So you could argue that it isn't the best option or that doing it all the time is a bit much, but bad in every scenario I disagree with.

Having some sort of outlet for sexual urges is good, better than leaving it pent up. Sex is a basic need like any other.

[67312653d066fvoodoo47]

ok, topic cleaned up. disliking things is fine, but no profanity everybody, would you kindly.

[67312653d07fcJoin2]

Censoring truthful insults because they hurt someone's fragile feelings...if anything it should be pro-degeneracy talk that is censored and condemned. You know, like the old world would. Once again I am left disappointed in humanity!

[67312653d08e1voodoo47]

naah, let it flow. just no profanity, it's.. unsightly.

[67312653d0b10Join2]

Well, you removed my content that wasn't profane too. e.g empires in their final stages prior to collapse trended towards degeneracy.
But I concede without further protest. Profanity was  discouraged in the old world too, and for good reason. Even as small an infraction as mere use of language to express oneself is, it too counts. It also is a form of normalizing degeneracy, given how most of it is sexual or gross in nature.

Thanks for that. Hard for me to shake that one off. I grew up in the degenerate hellhole that is England where the "C word" is the most common profane word used, and every other sentence half the population speaks contains profanity. Looking at that place today it's almost impossible to believe it is responsible for the lightbulb, comprehension of gravity, steam locomotive, industrial revolution, world wide web, modern school system etc etc etc and an empire spanning a third of the globe.

[67312653d0cbfvoodoo47]

double checked, not much value was lost - apart from one bit that mentioned one should self-reflect and the reference to empires falling when hedonism starts it's all just calling the other person names.

it's perfectly possible to express absolute disgust without doing that - feel free to put whatever you think needs to be added to the discussion into your next post (I guess I could stitch it together myself from the deleted bits but it's been a long day).


and just to be perfectly clear - the posts weren't deleted because she reported them, they were deleted because certain level of decorum needs to be maintained. I'm very much pro free speech and anti censorship, but there has to be rules, else everyone just goes insane.

[67312653d0deaJoin2]

Yup, I edited. I have self-reflected and hopefully improved.

"it's all just calling the other person names."

Indeed it was. Though I think there is value in that - shaming. But shaming can be done more tactfully for sure.

[67312653d0efdvoodoo47]

yes. lets be jerks to all heart's content. but let us also have class.

[67312653d1784ZylonBane]

You can get all upgrades in a single playthrough

Only if you're playing at a low difficulty and spending hours farming resources, in which case who cares, a player like that has already decided to ruin their own fun. When playing normally, you have to be selective.

Objective markers.

You can turn those off.

Removed fabrication license limits

Good. Dumb feature, glad they sidelined it.

weapon durability & negative status effects

You can turn on weapon degradation. There are negative status effects. You can turn on even more.

Enemies almost always are only ever present patrolling the center walkways, rarely in side rooms

False. Enemies are common in side rooms.

scripted ambushes

Ambushes are pretty much by definition scripted.

Aside from mimics, which are largely harmless.

Except when there's multiple mimics swarming you at once, which isn't rare.

there is no high tier enemy types

Telepaths, Technopaths, Poltergeists, and Weavers.

There's like three guns. Quite the downgrade from classic standards, don't you think?

The shortage of conventional weapons is deliberate and even a plot point. Prey wants you to think about ways to deal with enemies beyond just going Doomguy on them. Y'know, because it's an immersive sim. And even if you do want to go Doomguy, the four weapons do a perfectly good job of killing everything that gets in your way. If you want to get even more creative, that's what the Typhon powers are for.

And the GLOO gun itself is an awesome tool that puts rope arrows to shame for enabling environmental exploration.

the exterior of the station being similarly pathetic in design

Riiight, being able to explore the entire exterior of the entire freaking station, TO SCALE, including decompressed areas and expelled debris, and additional locations beyond the station, in a single level load, is pathetic, somehow.

pussified/soyboy/feminized design direction

Oof, the mask is finally coming off this mental case.

[67312653d1926Pacmikey]

I'm bookmarking this, I am about to witness when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

[67312653d1d92Xkilljoy98]

Join2Those insults you threw weren't truthful at all, and were just insults and name calling, but I'm not going into this again

You can't just call anything you dislike "degeneracy", plus the kinda stuff you hate has always been around buddy :p
There never was an "old world" that didn't have stuff, it existed back then too

Here is a video on it if you'd like to know more:
https://youtu.be/cYJYzzT02MA?si=lwtMWVyCV4thMc2x

Tho, it is worth reminding that empires fall when their governments fail the people. It has nothing to do with Hedonism. Plus swearing never hurt anyone

Anyway let's move on

For the love god DO NOT add fuel to the fire....calm down please

Remember there is a person at the other end of each of these profiles

[67312653d22acXkilljoy98]

ZylonBaneOn the subject of Prey, Mooncrash is a really cool example of a Roguelike and ImmSim mix, actually the only example i can think of.

[67312653d2c96Join2]

Only if you're playing at a low difficulty and spending hours farming resources, in which case who cares, a player like that has already decided to ruin their own fun. When playing normally, you have to be selective.

Simply false. I think your old age is catching up to you, or you were always a bit slow. There is no need to do any hours of farming. If you're not a dummy, you're always swimming in resources (past a certain point) and have a steady supply of neuromods, to the point of getting everything or close to everything in a single playthrough. And definitely everything relevant to your playstyle, that is guaranteed.

You can turn those off.

Their mere existence and the option to disable = compromise. Why do I need to explain this to you?

Also the game doesn't do a good job of aiding the player in a reasonable manner if they are turned off.

Good. Dumb feature, glad they sidelined it.

The very thing that would make the RPG systems follow the superior conventions of classic Immersive Sims and RPGs = Dumb?
The very thing that would prevent you easily investing into hordes of shotgun ammo or medkits  = dumb?

Proving yourself to be a bit of a game design dunce here.

You can turn on weapon degradation. There are negative status effects. You can turn on even more.

Poor execution, as I described. Needs mods such as RosoDude's, Prey For Death 2, and countless other rebalance mods that came out shortly after release given the very obvious need for them.

False. Enemies are common in side rooms.
Ambushes are pretty much by definition scripted.
Except when there's multiple mimics swarming you at once, which isn't rare.

It's all very tame and not at all like the classics. Partly because it is trying to be a stealth game and a combat game, which results in, once again, compromise. It definitely shows here.

Multiple mimics lol. It's like swatting flies. Dangerous stuff.

Telepaths, Technopaths, Poltergeists, and Weavers.

Everything dies with little resistance after a kinetic blast to stun then a shotgun to the face, or crouching and spamming the pistol utilizing the endless supply of ammo available. The mod I mentioned and others like it is the only thing that makes the game like the classics, where you need to utilize a wide variety of tools to succeed, not just spamming pistol/shotgun + kinetic blast, can't have everything in one playthrough, and actually need to think and strategize. Prey isn't as bad as Bioshock in this regard, but it is no classic. Too bad you're too dim to see it

The shortage of conventional weapons is deliberate and even a plot point. Prey wants you to think about ways to deal with enemies beyond just going Doomguy on them. Y'know, because it's an immersive sim. And even if you do want to go Doomguy, the four weapons do a perfectly good job of killing everything that gets in your way. If you want to get even more creative, that's what the Typhon powers are for.

Yeah, every other respectable Immersive Sim did that with inventory limitations, ammo counts and RPG restrictions, which is the smarter approach. Duh. Furthermore, minor plot details should never override rather primary game design concepts like...actually having weapon variety. There was nothing stopping them simply making subtle changes to the plot to accommodate. There was also nothing really stopping a little more variety regardless, what was the plot reasoning again? They have custom design to prevent breaking the glass or something like that right? That still doesn't mean there couldn't have been more weapon types with the same custom design. Sigh.
 
Lastly, prevent you from going doom guy...that would be ideal sure. But without fab limits, doesn't happen. As I described in the point above.

And the GLOO gun itself is an awesome tool that puts rope arrows to shame for enabling environmental exploration.

Right. Tool. It's a supportive secondary tool, not a primary. Sure, for the sake of fairness (because there's quite a few supporting tools) we'll include it. Now we're at 4 guns. Wow. Sure gives me incentive to try a new combat build next time like System Shock 2 or Deus Ex or Ultima Underworld or Fallout New Vegas or Arx Fatalis does.

Riiight, being able to explore the entire exterior of the entire freaking station, TO SCALE, including decompressed areas and expelled debris, and additional locations beyond the station, in a single level load, is pathetic, somehow.

I am not impressed by technical specifications and realism detailing alone, otherwise every modern game would be AWESOME. There needs to be some actual substantial game design. You know, like the classics.

Oof, the mask is finally coming off this mental case.

Yes, I am a bad person because I like manly things as opposed to feminine, which I dislike now being so pervasive in all my hobbies.
The mask is off for you I'm afraid - game design dunce and a sissy cuck lol.

[67312653d2db9ZylonBane]

demand join3

the join2 unit was... less than successful

[67312653d3119Join2]

demand join3

the join2 unit was... less than successful

You're coping hard. You're defeated I'm afraid.

Anyways, Mr. Imperceptive, there's hints from your post that your preferred playstyle is stealth, whereas mine is combat. In games that feature this freeform design truly (i.e not SS2), combat is always compromised to favor stealth. There is no other choice, as we need to be fair to the stealth player - not getting them forced-spotted through scripting, as one example. That is where a lot of these problems stem from, though definitely far from all. Stealth is about avoidance, so a stealth player as a result will miss more content on average than a combat player. This means resource economy also needs to scale to stealth. These full stealth/combat hybrid games never quite work in that regard. It should be one or the other, like Thief vs System Shock 2.
So anyway, I am saying all these truthful statements but because you appear to be a stealth player, you have no idea what I am talking about. And if you're not a stealth player, then you're incompetent. Yet I am defending it (and you) on these grounds when it's far more than this. It is otherwise compromised in typical AAA fashion to some extent. It does simply suffer from perhaps at times inadequate design direction regardless of anything else compared to the indisputable classics of the 90s. It is otherwise feminised to a degree. A sizable portion of the team were women. Not a bad thing if you're a chick or a feminine man. I am neither.

Deus Ex features many of these same problems as a playstyle hybrid game...but is a far better game regardless. Not tainted by modern standards, great writing, classic intelligent design principles guiding it far more (better RPG systems, no objective markers, actually has a soundtrack to speak of etc). Actually has weapon and enemy variety. Trusts, or hopes the player isn't dumb as rocks. Just needs a certain mod to fix general balancing, polish, retarded AI et al to solidify it as the competing King of Immersive Sims alongside SS2.
I most certainly agree with Raphael that SS2 is the best in its released state, though I have a huge amount of respect for his own Arx Fatalis, more so than Prey. It is simply more intelligent, uncompromising and cohesive. But again, mods fixed Prey for me, SS3 lives! so I am happy in this instance.

[67312653d3404notaavatar]

Honestly I think 1/2 the points here are ridiculous. It has nothing to do with women, pornography, family values, etc. This sounds like some russian shit.

 It is a question of the developers trying to push something that is supposed to make everyone feel the same exact way regardless of how the play so there is no discrepancy in the reviews. It is pure design politics, and the obsession of making it complete to a metric.

More then likely some high level bosses that developed fin-tech software or some boring lame utilitarian shit started getting hired at the game companies and instilled these supposed 'quality' policies. Of course what they are doing is simplifying stuff to make everything quantifiable on a design review. Like a IBM style review process on something that is supposed to be creative (not to mention they pioneer DLC with technologies used to enslave you to a certain printer).

And system shock 2 is a progressive game. They had a equal number of logs from men and women, strong female characters (in high level positions), a character that chose to identify, the Lance holosuit room (jiggalo). It seemed from the story that the women were the ones really trying to save the ship. It gets a A++ rating compared to something like Duke Nukem.

It is also quite degenerate with the bio horror and techno horror.

Not too sure if Join2 is too familiar with the hacker culture BTW. Its kind of got a hippy freedom vibe to it, unless your paid by a government organ.

when complex features and creative features try to get implemented with corpostiffs (ibm, fin tech, MBA engineers, etc) in any fields you get something like this

"blah blah blah WILL CAUSE US TO HEMORAGE MONEY"

They love saying hemorrhage. I have seen this time and time again, you get that one guy playing 'the game' basically trying to block anything that does not have a clear cut metric and is not considered easy and a 'sure thing' because it might 'lose money'. They totally eliminate creativity. Then if you have a half decent team, if you are fortunate enough for them to leave (usually their total job hoppers that don't mind transient living) then all sorts of crazy features that everyone knew are implementable grow like crazy and you get a rapid increase in technology that required some creative thinking, usually radically changes things.

It is truly amazing how big business has so much money but basically can't implement jack shit because of people and policies made by those people.

[67312653d39e4Join2]

Honestly I think 1/2 the points here are ridiculous. It has nothing to do with women, pornography, family values, etc. This sounds like some russian shit.

 It is a question of the developers trying to push something that is supposed to make everyone feel the same exact way regardless of how the play so there is no discrepancy in the reviews. It is pure design politics, and the obsession of making it complete to a metric

Check your reading comprehension, wow. That was a seperate discussion. No one was saying there is any connection between porn or family values and the decline in game design/development. Though now that you mention it...lol. I kid.

And system shock 2 is a progressive game. They had a equal number of logs from men and women, strong female characters (in high level positions),

That's just being realistic. There has commonly been women in positions of power for decades.
That doesn't indicate LGS or the games' political leanings at all lol. Not that anyone said anything on the matter anyway???

Anyway, read again. You misinterpreted the entire past few pages discussion. Bioshock, Prey, degeneracy, the fall of game design, there was multiple concurrent topics. Do try to keep up.

[67312653d3aecnotaavatar]

it sounds like discussing putins election plan

[67312653d40fcsarge945]

Dude what. Prey expanded on SS2's mechanics in almost every way. How on earth do you figured it was compromised?

The problem with Prey isn't the mechanics, it's the way resources are distributed and how it's generous design completely compromises it's mechanics.

The start of Prey is quite good. Until the end of psychotronics it's a very well balanced successor to system shock 2. But the game completely falls apart when you realize you can completely heal yourself by drinking at water fountains, bypass all the skill checks using a combination of mimic matter and the nerf gun, after doing a minor quest you can print as many neuromods as you'd ever want, and generally the game is so overflowing with resources that any sort of resource management or strategy completely dissolves. You can basically play it like a mindless shooter and still win. Even the nightmare barely poses a threat once you reach the mid point.

This is all irrespective of the fact that the second half of Prey is basically a series of linear objectives with no alternate approaches, which pretty much disqualifies it from being an immersive sim already.

Prey is a game that's very good on paper, with many options for agency and lots of alternate approaches to problems, but it completely destroys itself through it's balance and resource distribution.

SS2 has the same resource abundance problem but it's far, far more pronounced in prey, to the point where I've seen people who aren't really gamers end up with 40+ medkits in their inventory on the hardest difficulty through normal play. It's ridiculous.

Prey is not structurally compromised the way Bioshock is, and I think it's pretty good despite my criticism, but I can totally understand why people don't like it, given how often it provides player agency only to make that same agency pointless through extreme overabundance.

Also, why all this dumb bullshit about Prey being feminized or whatever? If Prey, a game with no references to modern politics and no progressive ideas despite being released in 2017, is somehow degenerate and woke, then literally everything is. I guess to these people not having enough guns is part of a leftist conspiracy to feminise our youth or something. I'm pretty conservative but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and Join2 needs to stop posting because he's making genuine criticism of this game look stupid.

[67312653d429bbombum]

Yeah system shock is way more political. Prey almost feels corporate in its vibe sometimes. System shock makes fun of triop at every turn, they're obviously evil and stupid, while prey plays transtar entirely straight. There's so much branding in the flavor text

[67312653d4467sarge945]

I agree. The overall style and presentations of Prey feels like what transtar would make as a documentary for the events of the game. It can't be too obviously corporate because it needs to have an air of legitimacy, but can't be too negative because they have to protect their brand image. Since the climax reveals that you're in a transtar simulation of itself, I'm not sure if this is intentional or not. Either way I could make a pretentious 4 hour YouTube video essay about it and rake in the views.

System Shock deals with greed, capitalism, and what it means to be human. The Many in SS2 are basically a critique of communism and utilitarianism that presents the positives and negatives of the philosophy, and how self-serving and selfish TriOp staff are very quickly manipulated and turned by their own nature, dooming themselves. Korenchkin practically begs the many to transform him because he wants to be powerful. Meanwhile the Typhon stand for nothing and aren't a comment on anything, they are essentially just a heartless organism with no sense of empathy. The only politics we get from "woke" Prey is a very milquetoast critique of capitalism, as opposed to the very in-depth critique of corporate influence we see in the "based and red pilled" System Shock.

But I guess Prey must be some propaganda-filled progressive mind-controlling mouthpiece because it has lesbian characters in it.

[67312653d47c0Toaste]

bombumThis has to be bait.