Scary Monsters AI issues

[66ee34e7197aeTheHEX]

in my mod lineup, this mod is the one responsible for breaking my monkeys in medsci2 ability to melee attack. they are freezing in place. when i pause it, they resume normal attacking

[66ee34e71999dvoodoo47]

generally speaking, if you are using a certain mod loadout, and are making an additional mod, you are also responsible for ensuring your mod will be compatible with the said mod loadout.

so apparently, both mods are modifying the monkey setup in a way that's not compatible. you need to make that not happen (short answer here is as RSD already modifies the monkeys, you will probably have to NOT modify the monkeys any further).

[66ee34e719aa3notaavatar]

how difficult would it be to get this mod to run with Secmod?

[66ee34e719b9enotaavatar]

I did try to read it, but I don't understand what I would need to do, it seems like fairly advanced modding that needs to be done. Is there any kind of debugging program or something to get the codes merged?

[66ee34e719d05voodoo47]

nope, you have to do everything the hard way.

how difficult would it be? I probably could do it, but you would hear my brain sizzle, most likely - RSD is mostly squirrel scripting which I can barely, barely read, and Secmod setups are.. complex. and I have been around for a while - though admittedly, I never were the sharpest knife in the drawer. more like a blunt machete, but hey, if that's all you have, then you will have to make do with that.

if I were to machete this, I would probably attempt to put together a small mod that would reset the Secmod archetypes that are modified by RSD to their vanilla state, and stick that between the two as a compatibility layer so both could work without direct changes.

[66ee34e719e08notaavatar]

Lol half the problem is that if I spend too much time reading about the game its not as novel when I play it, and it sounds like alot of debugging that would ruin the immersion.

[66ee34e719ed9voodoo47]

welcome to our world.

[66ee34e71a183TheHEX]

voodoo47
no i also paused my mod with this one on and the monkey was broken. then i paused this and the monkey was fixed. it didnt seem to have anything to do with my mod. i could change the monkeys behavior on the fly depending on which mods were loaded.

[66ee34e71a333voodoo47]

remember, pausing the mod(s) may not be enough, you may have to enter the level freshly (meaning, loading a save from before entering the level for the first time) to undo all the changes.

either way, you still will have to figure out what the incompatibility is if you want the two mods to work together properly.


or are you telling your mod is actually not involved in this at all? post your mod loadout.


or maybe lets try this - make a save right before entering medsci2, load that when testing so that the level would be loaded for the first time always.

1) RSD active, your mod active both the gamesys and map dml loaded
2) RSD active, your mod active the gamesys loaded but not the map dml
3) RSD active, your mod active map dml loaded but not the gamesys dml
4) RSD inactive, your mod active both the gamesys and map dml loaded

which combinations result in the broken behaviour?

[66ee34e71a66cRoSoDude]

This mod is incompatible with Secmod automatically because both mods replace the motion database. Secmod doesn't supply a copy of its edited motions so you couldn't merge and compile my changes onto it either.

The monkeys in medsci2 failing to melee attack is a known issue, however from my understanding it is actually a vanilla flaw. Enemies with a pseudoscript are often set to not inherit scripts, which means they aren't getting the backpedal exploit fix script that I put on a metaproperty on the base archetype. So these enemies will do the vanilla behavior where they chase you without ever attacking, The reason it probably seems more broken with Scary Monsters installed is because the base archetype also has reduced melee ranges to account for the way the fix works, and so enemies without the fix will have even more trouble attacking.

I will either need to add the fix manually to all enemies set to not inherit, or change the script to mitigate the issue so they behave at least as well as vanilla (no backpedal fix, but vanilla ranges).

[66ee34e71aa1dTheHEX]

voodoo47
in my case they were actually behaving differently than in vanilla. with each attempt at pausing various mods running, i was able to change the monkeys behavior without reloading the map... so i could see the results. and... the only way the monkeys melee attacks were broken, was with this mod running, which is a shame because this is a very important immersive mod for the game. it is however possible i think?... that the combination of my mods running initially caused yours to be the sole mod to be breaking the monkeys. i will test them with this as the only mod running soon. in vanilla and with my mod without yours running... the monkeys behaved the same, which is, the glass would break and then they may or may not see me and start shooting and chasing me around the corner after i take cover, and then start hitting me. but when i activated your mod again, they would not shoot me and only chase me, then when they caught me, they would freeze against my body in still motion until i move again and then they would refreeze again. very strange game breaking behavior. my mod is a very simple and small set of changes that shouldnt have affected the monsters melee properties at all. just time warp, projectile accuracy and velocity, which in my opinion are changes you should include in scary monsters ai because honestly we are kinda going for the same thing, i just am unable to implement many of the changes that you have due to their advanced nature.

[66ee34e71ab75voodoo47]

as mentioned, mods that affect game mechanics usually cannot be paused or disabled mid-game, or rather, if you do that then only the next level not yet visited will have them disabled properly.

doesn't matter how simple you think your mod is, if it's stepping onto some other mod's toes, you will have to figure it out and fix accordingly - this is standard process, when making a new mod, the mod author should check and ensure the new mod is compatible with the most popular mods already out there.

also maybe it's time to figure out how paragraphs work.

[66ee34e71afa9sarge945]

I will either need to add the fix manually to all enemies set to not inherit, or change the script to mitigate the issue so they behave at least as well as vanilla (no backpedal fix, but vanilla ranges).

Please see either Randomiser or Deterioration mod, as both contain methods to work around the Don't Inherit issue, by dynamically assigning scripts to free script slots on the concrete.

[66ee34e71b119ZylonBane]

The issue isn't how to add the script, it's identifying all the entities that need it, which is a pain in the ass.

[66ee34e71b3ecTheHEX]

voodoo47
lol...

why is reloading the game necessary? to ensure that the game is properly changed back to its original state when disabling a mod...  i said how the game was changing WITHOUT restarting the map... therefore... it is not necessary to reload the map. i just made a copy of my ss2 folder and deleted all of the other mods im not using and all of my mods from it and made a new game and the monkeys are completely frozen at my feet. this has absolutely nothing to do with my mod... youll probably continue to blame it though, lol. by the way, the monkeys in engineering are also melee broken, not just the medsci scripted ones. i was gonna separate here in paragraphs but im gonna leave it like this just to annoy you.

[66ee34e71b5a2voodoo47]

map dml changes are saved into the mission upon its first load (or rather, into any save that is then made). hence, to truly unload a (mission dml) mod, the affected level needs to be loaded freshly (meaning, you need to load a save made before entering that level for the first time, and then enter the level in question).

not doing this may, or may not have ill side effects, depending how deep the changes go (for example, if you disable the RealSG mod mid game, all already loaded missions will have hybrids wielding invisible shotguns, until, you guessed it, you enter a completely not yet visited level).

im gonna leave it like this just to annoy you.

I'm tech support for more than 25 years now. you ain't got the slightest capability to annoy me, bruh.

[66ee34e71b798TheHEX]

interesting results here...

vanilla - so with scp5 and scary monsters ai deleted, the monkeys always see me through the glass and begin shooting me but they do not chase me when i take cover, they just keep shooting until i run right up to them, and then they hit me until im dead. this is the vanilla behavior.

scp5 only - they do NOT see me and the glass breaks itself. after standing there for a while they see me and begin shooting. they then chase me around the corner and hit me normally until dead. so their vision appears to be screwed up on scp5

scary monsters ai only - they see me quickly through glass and begin shooting me through glass. they did not chase me around the corner. when i run up to them, they are unable to melee attack me but they are shooting me. melee attack is disabled.

scp5 with scary monsters ai - the glass breaks by itself, they cant see me until i stand there for awhile. when i hide they chase me and then they fail to melee attack me at all.

so its actually YOUR mod, scp5, which is incompatible with scary monsters ai... not mine. strange bedfellows, aye?

[66ee34e71b95evoodoo47]

yeah lol no.

- vanilla: yes, the monkeys are unable to find a way out of the cages because of broken pathfinding. so they will not chase you.
- AIs seeing you depends on many things, sometimes they will see you sooner, sometimes later, there are no changes there between vanilla and SCP. do multiple tests, you'll see.

here is SCPb5 vs SCPb5 + RSD vs vanilla.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpWkn4-Qt8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjV5x0vEj9o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1dSyoZXTnk
I see no issue on any of those videos.

[66ee34e71ba9eTheHEX]

did you like not read what i said... starting to see why you need paragraphs so much.

you didnt address what i said... scp5 and scary monsters ai are incompatible specifically because of monkey melee. i said nothing about RSD. also in the video youre failing to allow the monkey to melee you which is what all of these posts have been about...

[66ee34e71bc34voodoo47]

RSD already explained that, remember? so to make it absolutely clear, yes, those two monkeys unable to use melee is a RSD (= Scary Monsters) issue, it doesn't matter whether SCP is active or not.

//calling it an issue is perhaps not completely correct - it's basically a situation the RSD mod does not handle properly yet. and one more time, SCP is not part of the equation - read his post again.


guess the good news for you is that your mod is not doing this either - just like I said earlier, testing mods on scripted creatures is not the best plan. so just work with regular AIs first, and once they do what they should, you can run through the entire game and see whether special handling is needed somewhere.

[66ee34e71bda4TheHEX]

ok regardless of what his post says... in my testing, they do melee attack in vanilla and in scp5, but NOT with scp5 AND scary monsters both enabled. so i think his post was actually wrong. doesnt make sense to keep referring to something that is wrong after i just tested it myself and showed it to be so. the pathfinding ability is NOT what im talking about as thats a seperate issue. im talking about close range melee attack ability. and i went forwards to engineering and they too were broken so it wasnt the medsci2 monkeys scripting causing the problem. there is an underlying incompatibility that should be addressed.

[66ee34e71bef3voodoo47]

as I've already said, those two monkeys don't do melee period with RSD enabled, doesn't matter whether SCP is loaded or not, so one last time, this is not, I repeat, NOT connected to SCP in any shape or form.

so he definitely isn't wrong there - though it's a bit unclear whether other concretes are affected too, if you encountered some, then they probably are. either way, RSD seems to be aware.

[66ee34e71c08aTheHEX]

sir im pretty sure that not doing melee while shooting at you constantly... and, not doing melee while not shooting at you and running under your feet for eternity are 2 different things and one of them is with smai alone, and the other is with smai + scp5... thats not implying that there is a problem with scp5... but that there is a problem with scp5+smai. you might want to collaborate with him on it if you can bring yourself to do such a thing.

and yes when he said that the 2 monkeys dont melee in vanilla, and chase but not attack, he was wrong. they dont CHASE for melee, but they DO still have the capability to melee in close range... whereas, with scp5+smai, they dont. i just tested it again by the way. they are standing in their open cage, not chasing me. you are just arguing for the sake of argumentation at this point like you are unable to concede something when you've been shown to be wrong.

[66ee34e71c1f2sarge945]

The only thing worse than a player who doesn't listen to basic troubleshooting instructions is someone who's also smug about that fact.