Question about System Shock 3

[679963abb3908CyrusVonNox2001]

Last I heard , Warren Spector sold the rights to Shock 3 to Tencent, A move I lost an immense amount of respect for him over. Is there a way Night Dive could get them back and give them to someone else?

[679963abb3aadChandlermaki]

I'd much prefer it if the entire modern industry just left it alone at this point. Only pain can come from this.

[679963abb3c42voodoo47]

as much as I would like to see the Shock saga wrapped up in a satisfactory way (that's why I don't dislike Thief3), chances of someone actually pulling it off in this day and age are exactly zero.

so yes, just let her like her new look.

[679963abb3df0fox]

I  agree that the chances for a good sequel seem to be close to non-existent but still think "never say never".

[679963abb419avurt]

i mean.. there's not even any real effort for doing clones of System Shock 1-2, even though it's such a well known and loved franchise. Totally crazy to me since it has a solid fan base, which likely would buy it, even though it wouldn't be System Shock 3.

Wouldn't mind SS3, good or bad, i can skip it if its bad, and wouldn't mind if there for some reason suddenly was a big shift from making yet another survival game to instead doing System Shock 2 clones..

In a few years i bet we can do our own dream games by just using AI. In fact i have almost zero doubt we'll get there. I am all for it, will be fucking awesome to not have to rely on the industry. it'll be like when i'm in front of my modular synths vs listening to music on spotify - i just do whatever i feel like. Even if it feels almost like sci-fi to be able to have that freedom for games i think we will get there in our life time. 

[679963abb4298fox]

I hope so too but I'm sure the industry (both games and AI) will try their very best to avoid a democratization.

[679963abb43aevurt]

how do you mean?

[679963abb469asarge945]

Every time I see a beloved classic get a remake or a sequel after a long time, it sucks.

Doom is probably the only modern example of a reboot actually being good. And then they killed that with Doom Eternal.

[679963abb494cfox]

how do you mean?

In regards to doing "our own dream games by just using AI", I see the potential but I don't think that the content industry will give up their basis of existence without a long and very hard fight. I also don't think that the industry will just freely give away AI-tools that could be used to do so. They too will do their best to not undermine their basis of existence for as long as possible.

[679963abb4ae3vurt]

We will get there gradually, and we are already kind of there in terms of having the tools for it - image, audio, text, coding - we have it all. I saw that someone has already trained an AI to create Counter Strike, with none of its original coding, it's just machine learned by looking at it. 

If it was an instant thing thing yes, the whole industry would be against it and would try to pass laws. We see that with audio AI now especially, and also image AI. But for image AI i think it's getting normalized, but it'll take a few years still, just like it did for sampling or for synths, people were extremely angry about that tech.
 
It's not really something that can be stopped at this point, US will likely influence other countries if they pass some laws, and countries like China would be all for it, they'd have such a tremendous advantage. It goes for all AI, it's too good and useful to just let some countries use it.

uh, i realize  i should've started a topic for this perhaps, sorry for OT.

[679963abb4ddaZylonBane]

i mean.. there's not even any real effort for doing clones of System Shock 1-2, even though it's such a well known and loved franchise.

There are lots of them, but they're mostly indie games.

In a few years i bet we can do our own dream games by just using AI. In fact i have almost zero doubt we'll get there. I am all for it

Enjoy your endless stream of generic, bland, statistically-modeled pablum.

[679963abb4f22voodoo47]

so business as usual.

[679963abb505cvurt]

no one is into it because there's generic garbage, we have it for any medium. We are into it because of the few ones that stands out. nothing really changes if we have millions upon millions of garbage AI games, it's not like i'm going to play them, just like i'm not playing the millions of mobile games that comes out.

lots of SS clones? no there isn't. i've seen a rare few, and yes of course it's indies.

[679963abb543bsarge945]

There are lots of them, but they're mostly indie games.

Sorry to revive a slightly old thread, but do you have some recommendations for good shock-clones?

If you say Bioshock I will explode with the force of a thousand suns.

Also, to get back on topic, AI by it's very nature can only produce generic garbage. It's not capable of making anything new, all it can do is combine existing components in a new way. This can work for making artworks because there's a lot of wiggle room and leeway where our eyes don't really notice small imperfections or nonsensical combinations (we do notice when characters have too many fingers, though), but for something as complex as a videogame, at best you'll get an unfun and unbalanced mess that hasn't undergone the required testing and refinement that's literally impossible with AI (and always will be because of the fundamental way AI is designed), or at worst you'll get something that's literally unplayable because the AI has no concept of coherent game design so you will get nonesense that literally can't be completed. It can only emulate the style of input with it's output, it can't make reasoned judgements or understand the implications of what it's doing, which is required for designing a game.

This is why I don't like to call it "AI". AI is a total misnomer. There's nothing intelligent about it. Even Machine Learning is a bit of a stretch. All it's doing is analysing data (in a contextless way, I might add) and then emulating that data through successive iterations. Don't put any faith in AI, all it can produce is slop. The fad will die out in a few years, and then everything will go back to normal. It will have some uses in niche areas where accuracy and context aren't as important, like image touch-ups, but I giggle endlessly when I hear people talk about how "AI will be writing code in a few years". Humans can't even write code most of the time, and we expect machines to do it for us?

[679963abb6b02icemann]

Sorry to revive a slightly old thread, but do you have some recommendations for good shock-clones?

My question to you would be on which Shock specifically would you be looking for clones of? As both games are entirely different to each other, with very different game mechanics at their core.

As for Shock 1: Marathon would the first that springs to mind. If it does not have to through a first person format to qualify, then anything Shadowrun related. Ultima Underworld and Terra Nova have their similarities being done in the same game engine.

Shock 2: Prey and the games of which you would like to not hear of. Void Bastards would be another, though only lightly. Deus Ex (any of them) would be another.

[679963abb6caesarge945]

I know all about most of those, I was hoping there was some hidden gem I hadn't seen yet.

Also, while Deus Ex is undoubtedly an immersive sim, I wouldn't really call it Shock-like. It has a far more tactical/stealthy approach to encounters, and is structured very differently (individual objective-based missions with no backtracking).

[679963abb6dd5icemann]

Unfortunately there is very little out there that is similar. Once you remove the similar, all you have left is those with light similarities.

[679963abb6f15sarge945]

I've also noticed pretty much all the games in that list (except Prey) are quite old. Even the dreaded Bioshock is pretty old by now.

Maybe it's time someone made a modern shock-like with some interesting modern twists on the formula. I guess Prey did that, but it had so many problems in other areas it brought the whole experience down.

[679963abb7047icemann]

I do recall there was a Russian-made immersive sim. Atomic Heart. Reviews were very mixed on it.

[679963abb75e6JDoran]

I do recall there was a Russian-made immersive sim. Atomic Heart. Reviews were very mixed on it.

My personal opinion of Atomic Heart is very mixed. It has some really good points, real talent and thought has gone into the game, and at it's best it's fantastically good. But on the other hand, it has strange design decisions that really harm the game, it's often frustrating, and most damning (for me) is that after completing it, I've never gone back to replay it, and I'm someone who really loves replaying games that I like.

I won't post any spoilers, but the game isn't really an immersive sim, from what I remember, but a first person shooter with gadgety magic/science fiction powers, definitely more Bioshock-ish than System-Shock 2-ish. The game starts very atmospherically, then soon devolves into a fairly formulaic corridor first person shooter, which only occasionally remembers that there is supposed to be a story. The game is usually beautiful to look at, but has problems with difficulty spikes (certain enemies respawn much too fast, and it's possible to end up in an unwinnable battle due to too many respawning enemies), the semi-open world left me wondering if I'd missed any important locations (travelling through the world can easily lead you to the afore mentioned unwinnable battle areas), the in-game puzzles were often frustrating and with no traces of enjoyment, and there were some strange design choices made to the gameplay. And the story becomes very surreal at times, which does harm the immersion. But at times the game does grab you, and immerse you in a fun and interesting journey through this alternative history, where robots are commonplace and have turned on their masters.

Plus, I bought and played it on release (on the XBox One), and have never gone back to it, so perhaps some or all of the gameplay problems (difficulty spikes, the feeling of not knowing what to do next, the feeling of disconnect between different sections of the game, etc) have been patched out in the meantime. If you want an interesting science-fiction first person shooter, then you might like this, but don't buy it thinking it's an immersive sim.

[679963abb7741voodoo47]

I'll probably get it once it's 50% off, but not before the current issues in our backyard are resolved - they might have moved their headquarters to cyprus the moment everything started, but I have zero doubts that a few dollars from each purchase still land in the pocket of the kremlin gremlin.

and we don't want him purchasing even more cannon fodder from the kim-kim land, now do we.

[679963abb7a79vurt]

Also, to get back on topic, AI by it's very nature can only produce generic garbage. It's not capable of making anything new, all it can do is combine existing components in a new way.

It can create some of the most unique art i've ever seen (if you wade through the garbage). Why? The combination of it being limitless +  being able to create on an industrial level.
"Existing components in a new way". Exactly, and the combinations are limitless, often untried (because too silly or no one thought of it), much of it is entirely unknown. That's what's makes it very exciting. 

When / if we can use it similarly for games it will be similarly unique. ~99% will be total garbage i'm sure, it's that 1-2% that is interesting.

[679963abb7ba5ZylonBane]

I guess we'll have to create an AI to automatically discard the crap.

[679963abb7cb1voodoo47]

yeah, in 50 years, internet will mostly be just bots messing with one another.