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[6782ad8d9e0a6tiphares4]

What we really need is REAL LEADERSHIP

[6782ad8d9e2b2Join2]

Wouldn't be my first pick. Nigel Farage, Donald Trump. Pierre Poilievre are not the leaders I envision, but better than the alternatives for sure. And that's assuming they don't all answer to the same higher powers obviously present but hiding in the shadows.

Still, I have some small hope for USA lately, which I can't say the same for most of the west.

[6782ad8d9e51evoodoo47]

whatever buffoonery your current dearest leader may be engaging in, it cannot be as bad as flying to the land of blyat to lick the boots of the poo-poo man, then just jumping straight into a vietnamese brothel, and recording a video about his own amazingness right in one of the rooms there (and thinking nobody is going to find out, dude just look at those drapes right behind your warty commie mafia ass).

that's where we currently are.

[6782ad8d9e733Nameless Voice]

I don't think narcissistic, greedy ultra-rich capitalists are going to magically solve our problems by being racist bigots and blaming all their countries' problems on foreigners and minorities to deflect from the billionaires who are actually causing all those problems.

Not that the ones who pretend to be civil aren't just as bad, if not often worse.

[6782ad8d9e8afvoodoo47]

generally speaking, a greedy narcissist is less bad than an ideologically possessed fanatic. and now don't get me wrong, both are bad, but trust me on this, you sprinkle the commie dust on something, doesn't matter what it is, it will become much worse.

dill sauce and rice with bone scrapings, anyone? about half a dollar a pop, guaranteed to make you feel like a human being for a couple of hours, can share the recipe (you might need it if your government is thinking about the hammer and sickle real hard).

[6782ad8d9ea45fox]

I am convinced that narcissistic, greedy ultra-rich capitalists are on a roll right now and are going to (continue to) fuck things up even further.

I am also convinced that power corrupts. Populism and "strong man"-systems are never desirable. 

[6782ad8d9ebdevoodoo47]

well, yes. but if your options are to either be ruled by greedy ultra rich narcissists who love money and attention, or corrupt lunatics with messiah complex who will sacrifice anything and everything trying to create an utopia that will only ever exist inside their heads, then the choice should be rather obvious.

the rich narcissist may actually do something you will benefit from as long as it means more money, but to a nutcase on a mission to reshape the world, all you'll ever be is fuel to feed the always hungry furnace of his ambition.


eeeh. good thing I have the luxury of not having to give half a damn about the real world. now who wants that recipe?

[6782ad8d9ee48fox]

So, what about ultra rich narcissists, who are also lunatics with a messiah complex, who love, money, power and attention and will sacrifice anything and everything trying to create an utopia that will only ever exist inside their heads?

To me that is exactly what the Trump/Musk-team represents. Narcissism and power is a hell of a mix and can be just as dangerous as any ideologically possessed fanatic with power. In the case of that power couple, I can't see it last very long though, ironically thanks to narcisstic traits on both parts.

But I get you, systemic ideology (as in communism or fascism) is much less dependent on individual persons and because of that much more resilient, cold blooded, more directly against individualism and more prone to being isolated (sanctioned / cut off from important ressources).

If it had to be a choice between the two only, I would probably agree with you because, unless the narcisissm lead to catastrophic self-destruction already, it's probably going to be shorter lived and less harmful for the complying majority of citizens. But I refuse to accept that there aren't any better alternatives.

We know that there are better (less harmful) alternatives. Obviously very flawed and hard (potentially impossible?) to maintain ones but still... Even if it's unmaintainable, going back to systems that are proven to be worse (and ultimately also impossible to maintain) mustn't be the correct answer. There has to be some learning effect for once.

[6782ad8d9ef59voodoo47]

eventually, yes. but not in our lifetimes.

[6782ad8d9f335Join2]

I don't think narcissistic, greedy ultra-rich capitalists are going to magically solve our problems by being racist bigots and blaming all their countries' problems on foreigners and minorities to deflect from the billionaires who are actually causing all those problems.

Not that the ones who pretend to be civil aren't just as bad, if not often worse.

Not to distract from your point that the "elite" class are the core problem, but if you think letting anyone and everyone into your nation in droves without background checks and without the infrastructure to support them is fine, then you are sorely mistaken and not as smart as I thought.
It loops back anyhow; as it is the sellout elite class that unleashed immigration hell on the west in the first place.

Also to oppose this utter stupidity and insanity doesn't make one a racist or bigoted.

[6782ad8d9f4bcvoodoo47]

I don't think anything good will come out of trying to solve the unsolvable, so lets maybe not continue this way - acknowledging that you don't really have any friends out there, and everyone is an evil piece of garbage who deserves a middle finger is as far as I'm willing to go, so unless that dill sauce recipe is in play, I'm out for now.

also, as this is 2025 topic, I've just realized that I'm now further away from my childhood than my childhood is from the end of WW2. let that sink in.

[6782ad8d9f67cJoin2]

A little extreme, but I understand. I have been a misanthropist for a long time too (since late teens), because it's the only rational thing you can be if you understand human nature. Still, it's a spectrum, and some (few) people are simply as good as any being is ever going to get. I consider myself more good than bad, but I'm still a self-serving piece of shit like the vast majority. Some rare gems take goodness to a level I can't even comprehend, and I admire those people.
Furthermore, considering our circumstances, that baseline reality = chaos + we were thrust into this world naked with hunger, disease etc to contend with, bad emotions, no answer as to our purpose, and zero starting knowledge or wisdom, people are generally-speaking more good than would be expected. Speaking for the everyday people here, not the hardcore criminals, greedy fucks, psychos etc.

Side note but another thing about mass immigration is it suppresses wages, job opportunity, and demands lot of tax spending allocation (in the billions in some nations).

[6782ad8d9f837Nameless Voice]

Pretty sure I've seen statistics that immigrants contribute significantly more on taxes than they cost, because they're more likely to declare their incomes and less likely (or able) to receive state subsidies.

Technically they do keep wages down, because they're willing to do work locals won't for pay they wouldn't accept, though I'd sooner blame the greedy capitalists who pay them so little, but that's really a legislation problem (minimum wage too low.)

Blaming immigrants for a country's problems is always misdirection away from the real culprits.

There's also the bigger issue that the main reason a lot of people want to come to our countries in the first place is because we in the West have enriched ourselves by stealing wealth from their countries and then building up walls to keep them out.

[6782ad8d9fd51sarge945]

The problem isn't immigrants who move to a country and work there. The problem is working visas and temporary work permits, and outsourcing.

I've seen companies replace their entire staff with people on worker visas, who they know they can pay less, because they will soon move back to a country where the US dollar goes a lot further, so earning $20 a day doesn't matter so much if it'll be a months salary in their home country.

Before the Australian government outlawed 457 visas (due to abuse), every company was hiring indians or Malaysians by the hundreds, offering them minimum wage for programming and database work that usually pays well above minimum wage, and they would take it because by sending the money home they are giving themselves and their family a small fortune.

The global economy is a serious threat to the working class in the west, either because people from cheaper parts of the world can be shipped in to do the work, or because things can be manufactured more easily overseas.

It's easy to support immigration in the sense that people should be allowed to become citizens of whatever country they choose, and traveling should be nicely unrestricted. But it's another thing entirely to support working visas and corporate exploitation of both foreigners and locals. It's especially annoying because they control the narrative right now. If you don't support corporations having completely free reign to fuck you by not supporting working visas or outsourcing, you'll be branded a racist.

People who talk about "their Mexican neighbor", either in a positive or negative way, as a means of forming an opinion on immigration, are generally too uninformed to really be worth taking seriously. Unfortunately, the immigration debate normally revolves around these sorts of stupid talking points, like "if you're going to move here, learn the language!!" rather than "the global economy has allowed corporations to double dip by utilizing 2 differently valued economies, and it's to the detriment of us all"

[6782ad8d9fee2Pacmikey]

from a pragmatic standpoint, what should the average joe do? (aka me) other than voting?

[6782ad8da0005Pacmikey]

wrong button whoops

[6782ad8da0178voodoo47]

I think you wanted to hit edit, not quote.

[6782ad8da0332Nameless Voice]

A bit weird to import people for minimum-wage programming and database work, though?  Cheaper to just hire people in cheaper countries like India directly, then you don't even have to pay them minimum wage / enough to afford to live in your country.

But other than that, I still say the main problem is the greed of corporations and lack of laws.  It wouldn't be a problem if the minimum wage was an appropriate living wage and if anyone trying to pay under the minimum wage was properly penalised.


As for what you can do...  that's the tough one.  Our systems are generally so corrupt and so entrenched that we don't seem to have any chance to change them.  The only thing you can really do is organise in large enough numbers to become a meaningful factor which politicians have to take into account and try to appeal to.

[6782ad8da04ccvoodoo47]

eeeh guess I'll pitch in for one more bit if it's just general advice - you are trying to fight greed (we can call it infinite desire to acquire more, if you want something that sounds nicer), the very thing that makes humans humans. you aren't going to win.

as for what can one do, hmmm. not much, but yes, knowing your history and voting against whoever wants to repeat it the most would be a good start. apart from that, well, maybe make sure most of your assets have high liquidity, and be ready to leave the country as soon as you see the people in power attempting to tighten the screws.

[6782ad8da060ePacmikey]

my generation always thinks we're the unluckiest, but we have the most knowledge. if you live 1st world that is. get a job that isnt minimum wage, put your savings into high interest index funds, and you can retire at even 35 if you're lucky. just dont fall into any money traps like gambling smoking or drinking.

[6782ad8da097csarge945]

A bit weird to import people for minimum-wage programming and database work, though?  Cheaper to just hire people in cheaper countries like India directly, then you don't even have to pay them minimum wage / enough to afford to live in your country.

Yeah I'm not sure entirely WHY they did this, I think there was a tax incentive or something to hire "local workers", which was largely ill-defined.

I remember a few years ago I did some development work for a company that wanted to be able to claim "Local call centers, so you're not talking to a random person in India!" on their marketing material, so they set up an on-shore call center and filled it with the cheapest off-shore workers they could import.

Companies do all sorts of weird shenanigans for all sorts of stupid reasons.