ShakeYourBooty

[67b97274474f6Nameless Voice]

You always put a player factory on every level.  They do that in the original missions.

The ones in later levels just don't get used during the normal course of the game, because it uses the level transition systems and markers instead.  They are only for testing.

[67b9727447857RocketMan]

Well isn't that something.  Ok while we're on the topic, is there a way to save an editor game so if you want to debug something in a later level you don't need to go through the whole game to set up all the mission/plot states and stuff?

[67b9727447c78sarge945]

Well isn't that something.  Ok while we're on the topic, is there a way to save an editor game so if you want to debug something in a later level you don't need to go through the whole game to set up all the mission/plot states and stuff?

Can't you just use Save Game in game mode? (Ctrl-G)

I don't actually know because I have only loaded games using game mode, but surely saving would work too?

But, you might want to do what SCP does and have some extra switches/toggles/etc to trigger quest variables, set to "Editor" difficulty, so that they don't appear in a real game.

[67b9727447dedRocketMan]

I don't have a solid grasp of exactly what programming structures would be adversely affected from starting a later level without completing the previous ones so if there's a way to save your game in the editor and load it up again, that would probably be ideal.  I don't mind trying to save the game if it doesn't break anything but the editor has been so temperamental with how I've been using it that I'm afraid to try new things unless I know you're supposed to do that.

[67b97274480eaZylonBane]

"Programming structures"? Do you mean data structures?

if there's a way to save your game in the editor and load it up again, that would probably be ideal.

No, it would be awful. First, you'd have to maintain a collection of savegame folders with whatever quest states you wanted to test. Second, you'd have to manually tick Allow EndGame and delete the contents of the Current folder every time to allow level transitioning to work correctly. Third, when returning to editor mode the state would be a scrambled mess and you'd have to reload the mission you were working on, losing any unsaved work.

Just put a button in your level linked to one or more QB Set traps. Add Difficulty: Permit: 0 to the button. Takes like five minutes to set up. That's what Irrational did (see the command1 elevator).

[67b97274481f3RocketMan]

But this button just saves quest data?  What if I want the placement of the potted plants to be just where I threw them?  Wouldn't I need a proper save to capture everything?

[67b9727448348ZylonBane]

No, the button setup wouldn't save quest data, it would set quest data. That's why it uses the"QB Set" entity.

Are you talking about the positions of tossed items in the current map, or in some other map?

[67b97274484fcRocketMan]

Like when you're playing the vanilla game and you get to say engineering and you save the game, you have medsci1, medsci2 and engineering in the save folder with a file size that doesn't match the original so I'm assuming whatever you did in those levels before leaving them (killed some monsters, relocated some items, opened some doors, etc) is saved in some sort of state data in those mis files right (or maybe it just re-saves the mis file when you leave it)?  So that's what I want to do from the editor, so that when I warp into level 3 or whatever, and I decide to go back to level 2, everything is just as it was when I left it.  Otherwise, I would think that starting in level 3 and going back to a fresh level 2 might break a bunch of stuff that isn't necessarily related to quests.  I can't be more specific because I've been replaying the game from scratch every time so this hasn't been an issue.

[67b972744865aZylonBane]

WHY? Why are you doing that? The normal way to use DromEd is to work on or test ONE map at a time. Not the entire campaign. When you're in map X, the state of map Y, or any other maps, should be completely irrelevant.

And if you do keep saves around for other maps, they would only be valid for the specific version of the map they were created with. Loading an old save on top of a revised map WILL screw things up.

[67b9727448a7csarge945]

But this button just saves quest data?  What if I want the placement of the potted plants to be just where I threw them?  Wouldn't I need a proper save to capture everything?

I would highly recommend using the editor tools to place things rather than doing it in game.

Like when you're playing the vanilla game and you get to say engineering and you save the game, you have medsci1, medsci2 and engineering in the save folder with a file size that doesn't match the original so I'm assuming whatever you did in those levels before leaving them (killed some monsters, relocated some items, opened some doors, etc) is saved in some sort of state data in those mis files right (or maybe it just re-saves the mis file when you leave it)?  So that's what I want to do from the editor, so that when I warp into level 3 or whatever, and I decide to go back to level 2, everything is just as it was when I left it.  Otherwise, I would think that starting in level 3 and going back to a fresh level 2 might break a bunch of stuff that isn't necessarily related to quests.  I can't be more specific because I've been replaying the game from scratch every time so this hasn't been an issue.

Your best bet is to save the game (in the standard game, not the editor), then open the save in the editor, export the objects as dml, then reimport them into the actual map file.

But the question is why?

[67b9727448b92ZylonBane]

Can't say it occurred to me that he's using game mode to edit missions. I really, really hope it's not true.

[67b9727448cfevoodoo47]

maybe it's time to ask - are you building a (fan) mission? are you aware there are rules to follow (and if not followed, pain will ensue)?

[67b9727449018RocketMan]

are you aware there are rules to follow (and if not followed, pain will ensue)?

Yeah... been askin for those rules off and on for years.  The basic tutorials aren't cuttin it.  Please paste rules.

How is it even possible to 'edit' a level from inside game mode?  Of course I'm doing my editing in 'edit' mode.  Or I have no idea wtf you guys are talking about.

It seems perfectly natural not to treat every level as completely isolated and independent from each other.  Flick switch in level A, door opens in level B.  Go to level B and go through door.  Flick another switch.  A monster appears in level A.  Go back to level A and kick his ass and take his key.  Pretty old hat.  Level interdependencies are all throughout SS2.  Buuuttt... I have a feeling someone is going to "correct" me again for not understanding something.

Before everything gets out of hand... all I wanna do is save my game in ShockEd, no different than I would if I was just playing the game.  If I have constructed 3 out of 10 levels I want to load up level 3 and chip away at it and each time I go into game mode I want all the "stuff" that level 3 needs to work properly (from the other levels) to work AND I want to go back and forth to the previous levels and have all of them in a "used" condition, reflecting their already-activated condition.  Otherwise my inventory is all fucked, I have no skills, my logs aren't up to date, whatever...  Is this weird or something?

[67b9727449329ZylonBane]

I want all the "stuff" that level 3 needs to work properly (from the other levels) to work

You've already been told that this is exactly what qvar-setting buttons are for. But you responded to that with "But what about the potted plants?" Which just ended up confusing everyone because why would you care about things that don't affect other levels?

AND I want to go back and forth to the previous levels and have all of them in a "used" condition, reflecting their already-activated condition. Otherwise my inventory is all fucked, I have no skills, my logs aren't up to date, whatever...

You can deal with that by ubermensching and summoning weapons or pre-placing them in the level, tagged as editor-only. You never noticed all those piles of supplies at the start of command1 and rick1 that are only visible in DromEd?

There's a reason Irrational designed most quests to be self-contained within a single deck. With the exception of the really big plot quests, you can start any deck in the game from scratch and complete all its quests.

[67b97274494ccvoodoo47]

if I were to build a fm, I would probably just take one of the vanilla unstripped levels and start modifying. whatever needs to be added, would check what IG did, then whether SCP modified it, and then just do that. ShockEd for Dummies can help too.

to answer the question, type set game_mode_backup 0 in the editor command window and hit enter, go ingame, create the save (quick or regular), exit the editor (NEVER save your map in the editor after doing this) and you can load the save with the regular exe.

[67b9727449846ZylonBane]

type set game_mode_backup 0 in the editor command window and hit enter, go ingame, create the save (quick or regular), exit the editor

Why is setting the backup mode necessary? That doesn't have any effect until you exit game mode.

[67b97274499a3voodoo47]

it's been ages, but I think the save was not quite working right without doing this. would have to check to be sure, but either way, I always do this if I need to work with saves. definitely necessary if you have a save that you want to load in the editor, then do some changes, and save again to create a save that the game exe can then load.

[67b9727449e31RocketMan]

to answer the question, type set game_mode_backup 0 in the editor command window and hit enter, go ingame, create the save (quick or regular), exit the editor (NEVER save your map in the editor after doing this) and you can load the save with the regular exe.

This explains saving from 'game mode' in the editor, and then apparently loading it in SS2 as if you were an end-user... but I don't get how to re-load it from inside the editor.  Obvious guess would be, enter 'game mode' hit escape, go to load, and load the saved game.  However since we're talking about a pseudo-game inside the editor I can't assume it acts the same way.  Is that how it works?

1. load level of interest in editor (say level 3)
2. ALT-G
3. ESC > SAVE
4. ALT-E
5. Exit editor without saving
6. Re-load ShockEd
7. Load level of interest in editor (level 4)
8. ALT-G
9. ESC > LOAD
10. Load save game

Like that?

Actually the best way I see this working is to save the game in the level prior to the one you're currently screwing with.  So a save game for level 3 would be good if you're working on level 4.  That way, whatever you change in level 4 doesn't get undone when you load the save game.  The save game merely offers an entry point into level 4 that saves you a ton of time getting to. 

ZB I get what you're saying about resource caches and cheat codes but sounds clumsy and stapled-together to me.  Trying to anticipate all the prerequisites for a level and making special secret provisions for them can never be as reliable as actually playing the game up to the point you're working on.  And if something doesn't work, then you just exposed a bug you need to fix, which is a good thing. 

[67b972744a248sarge945]

SS2 is built on top of Thief, which was a game designed to load levels as completely separate maps with no interconnectivity whatsoever. ShockEd is based on DromEd, Thief's level editor.

As a result, changing levels in the editor via play mode is a bad idea and is 100% guaranteed to screw everything up. Do not load one level from another level. Level transitioning in the editor is disabled by default for a reason - the editor simply cannot handle it. The editor is designed to edit one level at a time, and switching between them in the "open map" dialog effectively discards the first one and loads the second one from scratch, which is the only reliable way to switch maps.

The way interconnectivity works in SS2 is via qvars. AFAIK that's the only way for one level to affect another level directly. Which means that, since the editor cannot handle loading more than 1 map independently, you need a way to set those qvars within your map (via editor-difficulty objects) so that you can test it. It's critically important that you think of your campaign as unconnected, independent levels that react to qvars to change things about themselves, with no knowledge of or way to interact with any other levels outside of setting and reading qvars.

While it's technically possible to mess around with saving and loading to move between maps in the editor, and while you might even manage to find something workable by doing so, the chances of running into issues are extremely high, and while adding editor-only objects is a hassle and is annoying, I guarantee you it will be far less annoying than having your entire map get corrupted after 100 hours of editing because of problems with the editor.

You have been strongly warned multiple times to not do what you're trying to do. It's obviously up to you whether or not you want to continue down that path, but when multiple people who have used the editor extensively all tell you in unison that doing something in a particular way is a bad idea, I recommend taking their advice because they probably know what they are talking about. I'll be the first one in line to call ZB an asshole but in this case he's also right.

Saving in level 3 so you can transition through to level 4 is an excellent way to test your map in the real game, but you can't edit that way. I know RoSoDude tested a lot of RSD by actually playing the maps in SS2.exe. But when it comes to using the editor, the only valid way to test your map is by entering game mode in the actual map you're testing and using editor objects to set the qvars you need to set, and there's no way at all to do cross-map editing.

[67b972744ae3cZylonBane]

ZB I get what you're saying about resource caches and cheat codes but sounds clumsy and stapled-together to me.

You can call it whatever names you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an order of magnitude faster to hop directly into a level and grab some pre-placed gear than it is to start the game from scratch.

Starting the game from the beginning should be reserved for playtesting. What you're doing now is developing. Trying to smash developing and playtesting into the same activity will just make both tasks slower and less efficient.

Level transitioning in the editor is disabled by default for a reason - the editor simply cannot handle it.

DromEd can handle level transitioning perfectly well. It's possible to run through the entire game in the DromEd exe without a single glitch. What it specifically can't handle is maintaining meaningful data in editor mode when you do this. As long as the user understands this limitation, all is well. Sometimes it's very useful to be able to test level transitions in the editor.

[67b972744b04cvoodoo47]

if you want to load a save in the editor, you fire up the editor, set game_mode_backup 0, toggle persistent player position, go ingame, hit escape, load the save from the menu, then alt+e to get back to the editor, and then F3 for player and jump there with F8, most likely.

[67b972744b1b5RocketMan]

Ok I'm starting to understand better now... not precisely but well enough.  Part of the problem is that with what I know about how this game works (or more precisely what I don't know), it's not immediately apparent why something so natural to me should be so discouraged.  I don't really need to know the reason to obey the advice but not knowing the reasons makes me more than a little skeptical.  I certainly don't want corrupted levels.  I went through that bullshit with my very first level actually.  1 vertex was preventing the entire level from portalizing and I spent 10s of hours hunting it down.

[67b972744b38dZylonBane]

What's not apparent about "Testing a level directly is faster than replaying the entire campaign from the beginning"? That seems, like, super duper apparent.

[67b972744b643sarge945]

What's not apparent about "Testing a level directly is faster than replaying the entire campaign from the beginning"? That seems, like, super duper apparent.

In his defense, setting up a level in order to test it that way can take a while and seem intimidating, especially to someone unfamiliar with the editor, so it makes sense for people to want to fallback on what's comfortable.

But with time, doing things this way will massively pay off and end up being significantly quicker and easier.