SS2 Straylight ADaOB v0.3.0

[67439e9fd4c24Tricky]

Uh.. don't take it so personally? Everybody has preferences. People will express themselves, true, but I think I can speak for everyone here when I say we're pretty much already abiding by what you guys decide to do with this mod. Besides, weren't you people making a pretty strong case for removing weapon unloading in loot a little while ago? It's not like that was ever a bug.

Heck, it just doesn't matter. It's just details. Don't worry, it's going to be fine. 

[67439e9fd52c0Marvin]

Christ, you mewling whiners. The point of a community patch, a patch intended to be acceptable to everyone, is to FIX BUGS ONLY. The behavior of the laser pistol in ADaOB wasn't a bug fix, it was a major change to its functionality, from a projectile weapon to a buggily-implemented hitscan weapon. So that change is out. The end.

The point is not the definition of a community patch but what you deem as "bugfix only" and you have proven time and again that the only thing that matters in this regard is your opinion alone, even if it may be contradictive. This is what allows you to argue in favor of realism when it comes to adding pre-enabled post-processing to the SS2Tool (which severely changes the game's lighting, but who cares, it's >realistic<) but stand against it when realism would mean that a shotgun pellet does not magically leave its weapon although this was originally intended. The same thing would also apply to a lot of the changes in level geometry like shrinking and moving the infamous yellow cryo tube which you suggested iirc.

Except for the bloom settings I mentioned I'm very much in favor of those changes. But don't label everything you like as "bugfix only" and disregard the rest, and add insult to injury by reacting to a meek "Uhm, I actually really liked this" with such a post. Having contributed to System Shock modding for so long may give you a pass when it comes being a grumpy (and often correct) know-it-all but this dickish behaviour is getting very old very fast.

[67439e9fd565bTricky]

I can't disagree with that, but I don't want to further agitate the situation. Instead, here's my quasi serious approach to easing down the tension a bit..

Well, a laser pistol should emit actual light, not some blob travelling at 0.0000001c which is how the original behaves.

Then read this:
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html

So, in a nutshell.. let's just say that our beloved laser pistol doesn't merely emit a laser beam, but a 'blob' of Bose-Einstein condensate with lots of high energy laser photons trapped inside.

Sci-Fi: it works! 

[67439e9fd584bZylonBane]

Okay fine, "BUGFIX ONLY" was an overstatement. Nonetheless, turning a projectile weapon into a hitscan weapon isn't correcting a bug, or an oversight, or a logic error, or a balance issue, or a cosmetic flaw. It's a fundamental change to the gameplay implementation of the weapon. As such, it's something that belongs in a mod, not an (unofficial) patch.

Besides, if you want logical consistency, then the laser turrets and Midwife weapons should be instant-hit too. That would suck.

[67439e9fd5a69Join2]

Oh, others have....never mind.

[67439e9fd6722Kolya]

This is what allows you to argue in favor of realism when it comes to adding pre-enabled post-processing to the SS2Tool (which severely changes the game's lighting, but who cares, it's >realistic<) but stand against [...]

That was me and I am not involved in SCP. And I never argued post processing was about realism. I just added it to SS2Tool, because apparently everyone and their cat wanted to have it and I figured it would be best to offer a subtle bloom then. It is an option in SS2Tool though, so you're free not to use it. And it's in the "Game Features" category, not under "Bug Fixes".

That being said I understand your point. But that was just a weird tangent you were going off here.
You see we had this discussion years before, whether ADaoB was allowed to be called a "community" patch. And that was just in description, not in the name. My point is the same as it was back then: Decisions can and will be made by those who do the work. Everyone else is free to offer their suggestions, that's all. In case of SCP I know that it is A LOT of work, we're talking about. And even though I do not agree with some decisions that ZylonBane and Voodoo47 are making, it is their work and hence their decision. And I'm looking forward to the result like everyone else here.

[67439e9fd6e5fTricky]

Hm. So it's pretty clear who the community is then. I suppose not just anyone can come into this community and include their own content either. Someone would have to decide which asset takes priority over the other. And then the whole 'who is the community' thing will start to sound a bit silly.

I've seen this happen before. The first KOTOR 2 Restoration project.. eAthena server emulation.. those Vampire Bloodlines patches.. there is always some inevitable conflict down the line if too few people are in control. And unless they decide to prepare for it in advance (I've already suggested the WeiDU aproach), it can be enough to run everything into the ground, whether these projects fork or not. That's the downside of throwing all your chips into one 'community' pot. Sigh.. look, I'm sorry for dragging this discussion on. I'm only trying to appeal to everyone's wisdom.

If you want appeal to the entire playerbase, don't just make a patch. Build an infrastructure.

[67439e9fd7030voodoo47]

if I was supposed to describe SCP in one sentence, it would be "gameplay patch that can be recommended to a first time player with a straight face". bugs, anomalies and discrepancies are fixed, broken functionality is restored, stupid annoying things are removed (unloading the broken shotguns would fall into this category). small tweaks to effects, lighting. no changes to functionality are allowed (that's why the laspistol has been restored to it's original form).

but yes, in the end, those working on the mod will have to make the ultimate decision what should be included, and what shouldn't. no way around this.

[67439e9fd7120ZylonBane]

Some of my more crazy suggestions actually get shot down on a regular basis.

[67439e9fd71f9Kolya]

Just try to think of it as ADAOB 4.0, Tricky.

[67439e9fd72cfTricky]

 

[67439e9fd7e1aMarvin]

I can't disagree with that, but I don't want to further agitate the situation. Instead, here's my quasi serious approach to easing down the tension a bit..Then read this:
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html

So, in a nutshell.. let's just say that our beloved laser pistol doesn't merely emit a laser beam, but a 'blob' of Bose-Einstein condensate with lots of high energy laser photons trapped inside.

Sci-Fi: it works! 

Well, that doesn't work at room temperature and normal pressure. But I like the idea.

Okay fine, "BUGFIX ONLY" was an overstatement. Nonetheless, turning a projectile weapon into a hitscan weapon isn't correcting a bug, or an oversight, or a logic error, or a balance issue, or a cosmetic flaw. It's a fundamental change to the gameplay implementation of the weapon. As such, it's something that belongs in a mod, not an (unofficial) patch.

Then the weapon's description would have to be changed because it doesn't reflect what is happening in the game. Besides, I'd argue that it was most probably the result of laziness or time constraint as the programmers would need to come up with a nifty effect instead of just copying and changing what they already had from all other projectile weapons. But okay, case closed, I got the message.

Besides, if you want logical consistency, then the laser turrets and Midwife weapons should be instant-hit too. That would suck.

I would actually really like this, default SS2 is too easy anyway.

That was me and I am not involved in SCP. And I never argued post processing was about realism.

I know. I was referring to this post:
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=4425.msg52011#msg52011

I just added it to SS2Tool, because apparently everyone and their cat wanted to have it and I figured it would be best to offer a subtle bloom then. It is an option in SS2Tool though, so you're free not to use it. And it's in the "Game Features" category, not under "Bug Fixes".

That being said I understand your point. But that was just a weird tangent you were going off here.
You see we had this discussion years before, whether ADaoB was allowed to be called a "community" patch. And that was just in description, not in the name. My point is the same as it was back then: Decisions can and will be made by those who do the work. Everyone else is free to offer their suggestions, that's all. In case of SCP I know that it is A LOT of work, we're talking about. And even though I do not agree with some decisions that ZylonBane and Voodoo47 are making, it is their work and hence their decision. And I'm looking forward to the result like everyone else here.

Okay, just for the record, maybe this has been lost in translation: I know how much work SCP possibly turned out to be and I'm very glad that ZB and voodoo put so much effort into it (for free). I'm also totally for artistic freedom, they could add flying piglets to the game and I wouldn't mind. My problem is that one should be clear about if and how feedback is processed and what your target audience is. If you know what you're doing but don't want suggestions or discussions about it, fine, just say so. It's your mod. Stating to be open about ideas on the one hand (but not obliged to implement any, that goes without saying), as voodoo said several times, and lashing out at people the moment they are posting such ideas on the other hand makes no sense at all, especially if you call your mod a community patch. If some assfuck would come here and post something along the line of "Hey, you lazy idiots, why are you doing this? It's supposed to be that way, dumbass", okay, that's a different story. But I think I've kept it civil so far.

I realize that the longer you've been active in a community like this the more weary you get of ridiculous ideas like the zillionth one-man attempt at a SS1 engine conversion and in those cases a blunt response from a senior user can put things into perspective. In the long run however, telling people to get lost might save you a lot of time, e.g. when a newbie talks about zany mod ideas or asks extremely basic questions about ShockED, but it will also make sure that said newbie will be a lot less inclined to participate here. Please keep in mind, as I can already guess how a rebuttal to this argument would look like if you stop reading here, that not pissing off people does not equal having to cuddle them and keeping tea and biscots ready.

tl;dr: Constructive criticism good, insults bad, getting too defensive dumb.


(I've tried to collect everything in one post, sorry for derailing the thread a bit. If you still think I'm going off a weird tangent, send me a PM, preferably in my native tongue. ).

[67439e9fd8006Hikari]

Your work, and sticking to your guns on the oddball feature requests, is appreciated. Especially from Zylon. Guys' been around so far as i can tell since the community started. Guy's abrasive at times but he deserves a medal.

[67439e9fd8273Tricky]

Guy's abrasive at times but he deserves a medal.

I haven't endured prolonged exposure to membership yet, but yeah..  I've seen enough to know he's solid. I mean, continuing to work on something for so long for such an old game.. come on, that's just pure love. Nothing more, nothing less.   

[67439e9fd8363Xegoog]

Should I install SS Tool 5.1 before I install this? Or does this include the updates contained in that patch?

[67439e9fd84f5Simplex]

AFAIK Yes. No.

[67439e9fd85faKolya]

SS2Tool is a prerequisite to using mods incl. this one.

[67439e9fd88bfZanderat]

Your work, and sticking to your guns on the oddball feature requests, is appreciated. Especially from Zylon. Guys' been around so far as i can tell since the community started. Guy's abrasive at times but he deserves a medal.

Agree here. He can be a bit of a curmudgeon, but he is our curmudgeon.      LOL!

[67439e9fd89d3Kyuu]

Is there a way to remove the bloom feature if you already installed it? Was looking at some videos online and wondered why mine was so much brighter than other peoples games. Should it even be that bright or what is the reasoning behind it if so?

[67439e9fd8aebbluemess]

Bloom settings are not related to this mod. You can change them in cam_ext.cfg file. Variables to look for: postprocess, bloomscale, bloom_range, bloom_saturation, bloom_threshold. You can play with them to see if they're the reason for game being too bright. "postprocess 0" will disable bloom completely.

[67439e9fd8bcfKyuu]

Thank you for the clarification, thought someone had said that bloom had been added into the game thru this mod or something.

[67439e9fd8e51Olfred]

It's added through NewDark and I think the default settings are a tad too bright.
And NewDark gets installed through SS2Tool.

[67439e9fd8f51Dizzy]

Not sure why, but even though in the patch notes it says "player's weapon becomes invisibile when using Psi Invisibilty".

In my game, my weapons do not become invisible? Or am I misunderstanding the change...?

[67439e9fd902fDeu sex]

Hi guys, any news on SPC's progress ?