SS2 Straylight ADaOB v0.3.0

[674384825f089Tricky]

Aye aye. 

[674384825f4b3Chandlermaki]

I'm missing an IMO there..

Yes you're correct.

But (in my opinion of course) there's only so much realism you can include in a game without hurting playability, simply because of our current input devices. Separate button presses can only do so much before ergonomics fly right out the window. But then of course, it depends on the genre of game and what you quality as "realism". 

[674384825f87dJoin2]

But then of course, it depends on the genre of game and what you quality as "realism".

That's the brilliant thing about immersive sims, they are very realistic yet still have amazing gameplay by giving nearly everything "gamey" a reason to exist.
This exact design on modern engines would be a dream come true. Dishonored, Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Bioshock do not qualify. New Vegas comes close though but is held back by minor things.

IMO.

[674384825fb62Chandlermaki]

This exact design on modern engines would be a dream come true. Dishonored, Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Bioshock do not qualify. New Vegas comes close though but is held back by minor things.

Controller ergonomics. Everything (that isn't PC exclusive or geared more towards the PC) is designed around a console controller nowadays.

[674384825fc85Zeebok]

What I liked about having to unload is that it left you vulnerable to attack; which is a huge theme in the game. Opinion over.

[674384825fe3fvoodoo47]

well, once SCP is out, you are free to fire up Shocked and create a fork of the mod that would do exactly that.

[674384826022dTricky]

What I liked about having to unload is that it left you vulnerable to attack; which is a huge theme in the game. Opinion over.

I can't think of many games that don't pause the game whenever you open a menu. Well, multiplayer games of course. DayZ would be a good example of that (coincidentally requires guns to be emptied as well), since the realism of its survival gameplay is only offset by the hugeness of its commercial success.

Ok, but serously that's all I'm going to say about that. Moving slowly away now.

[6743848260655Join2]

Controller ergonomics. Everything (that isn't PC exclusive or geared more towards the PC) is designed around a console controller nowadays.

No, they are just poorly designed. Radial menus and the like were never a good idea on consoles. And in-depth PC classics such as Morrowind had almost identical ports to consoles.
Another good example is Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Arx Fatalis and more. Multiplatform games that controls work great on both and no functionality was sacrificed either way.
Modern designers just lack talent/vision or just intentionally streamline everything, nothing else to it. I think it is a mix of both.

well, once SCP is out, you are free to fire up Shocked and create a fork of the mod that would do exactly that.

Thanks, I was intending on asking at some point.

[67438482609ceChandlermaki]

No, they are just poorly designed. Radial menus and the like were never a good idea on consoles. And in-depth PC classics such as Morrowind had almost identical ports to consoles.
Another good example is Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Arx Fatalis and more. Multiplatform games that controls work great on both and no functionality was sacrificed either way.
Modern designers just lack talent/vision or just intentionally streamline everything, nothing else to it. I think it is a mix of both.

If the developers are willing to design a separate control scheme to accommodate kb+m better, great. Most modern console focused (most of them) developers just map the keys and call it done. Human Revolution was a refreshing surprise in this regard. 

[6743848260d12ZylonBane]

Thanks, I was intending on asking at some point.

You will also be free to unmap your weapon reload keys and accomplish all reloading by dragging ammo to your gun in the inventory. Because that's more strategic.

[6743848260e19Join2]

Bad analogy, you can do better than that.

Reloading is a core, essential gameplay mechanic (unless strictly OSA or melee of course), optionally scavenging a extra bit of ammo is not.

[674384826121cMarvin]

The one redeeming factor of not having every shotgun unloaded is that the time required to unload it, maybe even make space in the inventory, could put you in a tight situation if other enemies are very close and you don't want to/are not able to deal with them. The probability for that is fairly low, though, so unloaded shotguns should definitely stay in.

currently, in both ADaoB and SCP, the hybrid shotgun remains broken, and unloaded by default. there are no plans to change this behavior in the near future.

so no need to discuss this any further.

Well, everyone here surely appreciates all the hard work you put into this mod, but this thread should also be there to provide ideas or discuss changes you haven't thought of, that the community would like to see implemented. I know that ZB is reaching for his blood-pressure medicine when he reads this but once in a while modders can be wrong about something, right?

[674384826153dJoin2]

Well, everyone here surely appreciates all the hard work you put into this mod, but this thread should also be there to provide ideas or discuss changes you haven't thought of, that the community would like to see implemented. I know that ZB is reaching for his blood-pressure medicine when he reads this but once in a while modders can be wrong about something, right?

Hey, he didn't say they don't appreciate feedback, he just said they are dead set on leaving it as it currently is so there is no point discussing it anymore but I am free to make my own changes to their work whenever I please.
However, there may be someone yet to come forward with a better argument than I as to why the shotgun unloading should be restored. I didn't consider the respawning enemies sneaking up on you whilst fiddling about unloading and dropping that you & Zeebok just mentioned.

[6743848261977RocketMan]

Unloading a broken shotgun is like using the mouse to equip a gun instead of hotkeys.  Basically you're adding work to a task that doesn't require it in order to increase the realism and immersion factor, something I admire about the game.  However, unlike equipping a gun, which can be done different ways, there's no shortcut to unload that shotgun so you end up having to go through this tedious exercise every damn time you want a shell.  That'd be like having to open the inventory and drag/drop a gun every time you want to switch.  The odd person wouldn't mind but even I'd be pulling my hair out if I had to do it the entire game.  If you have to pick between the  two, choose the option that doesn't make the player stop enjoying the game and start focussing on a poorly chosen game mechanic.

Yes, it may be unrealistic for a shell to unload itself when the hybrid dies but then so is having only 1 round left or having the gun break only when the hybrid dies.  I'm sure most players will let it slide.

[6743848261dd9Join2]

That'd be like having to open the inventory and drag/drop a gun every time you want to switch. 

Bad!

Unloading Hybrid shotguns is entirely optional and Shotgun Hybrids are a far rarer occurrence than weapon switching.

Basically you're adding work to a task that doesn't require it in order to increase the realism and immersion factor, something I admire about the game.

And adding it for the minor gameplay aspects.

adding work to a task that doesn't require it

It did require it in the vanilla game...

That'd be like having to open the inventory and drag/drop a gun every time you want to switch.  The odd person wouldn't mind but even I'd be pulling my hair out if I had to do it the entire game.

You played the vanilla game didn't you, with the unloading? Were you pulling out your hair the entire game?

It would suck monkey balls if you had to drag n drop every weapon swap. This is different, and optional.

Ok, I'll respect your opinions and drop it, but I am disappointed I couldn't change your minds as to why this is good design, though it would be better with a 50% chance for unloaded/loaded to cut down on how often you encounter the opportunity and further simulation

(further simulation because not every Hybrid would have ammo in the shotgun yet could have spare ammo in his pockets)

[6743848261ee3voodoo47]

user feedback is always appreciated - but do note that only very few ideas will actually make it in.

[6743848262158Tricky]

user feedback is always appreciated - but do note that only very few ideas will actually make it it.

And that's why the next patch will be called the Shock Community Patch.   ;-)

[67438482622b9Simplex]

Last time I checked, the authors of the patch were not looking glass employees.

[67438482623b1Tricky]

Hm, I suppose you're right. We are more like their groupies. 

[6743848262977bluemess]

Realistic to a point. When you make a videogame too realistic, it stops being fun.

I'm missing an IMO there..

I think it's safe to assume it for a fact that too much "realism" is bad. I mean, there are different ways of making things be more realistic, and it is a subject of a struggle to find the right balance. It's easy to go the wrong way in this pursuit for realism. Making player click much for some repeating task as a mean to achieve it, is definitely not the way.

[6743848262a61Tricky]

Ultimately I would agree. However scrounging some ammo out of a shotgun doesn't really come close to ultra-realism though.

[6743848262b4cbluemess]

But it appears that there's discussion going on the subject if it is.

[6743848262ce2Tricky]

Well, the discussion certainly does illustrate a point.

Alright, then how about changing the approach to SCP a bit? For instance, with some added documentation, you could go for the modular approach, make elements of it optional during installation. The WeiDU mod framework does something similar for the Baldur's Gate series. There are large modpacks for those games that use WeiDU as a basis to install themselves. During installation of those packs it lets you choose what you want to include (although there's still a simple 'complete installation' option for people who don't want to bother with that).

It's either that or creating that fork. But to be honest, I don't like how forks tend to splinter communities! Sure it's just 'unloading weapons' now, but what else will people start to disagree on in the future? Or already have? I'd prefer it if there was a sense of unity to SCP, keeping everyone together.

[674384826303eJoin2]

I'd prefer it if there was a sense of unity to SCP, keeping everyone together.

I can sense you...giving opinions in data packets as I send mine....the sensation is repulsive. 

We are capable of sensible discussion and disagreements without having to split the community with some childish feud. And there is no unity to SCP, it's VoodooBane's project. I'm sure they themselves have their disagreements.
Glad you are on my side regarding the shotgun unloading though, trickster 

...though I am sure we are all in agreement its a great mod overall