Blueprints of Minstrel

[6790cc07e13ddunn_atropos]

Tags: °blueprint°minstrel°mapLet's play a stupid game. What is this?

[6790cc07e162egaspalorz]

Are you going to do other decks too?

[6790cc07e17ccKolya]

Looks like a fish... No wait, it's a microchip! Possibly from a wii controller.

[6790cc07e194eZylonBane]

D Deck Thumb, of course.

[6790cc07e1ab8unn_atropos]

Here you go. The Minstrel in all ist beauty^^
I tested a new "system" of links here. Blue arrows show connections to other decks, combined wheter the deck is over oder under the current one. Orange letters numbers indicate normal up/down business. Hope someone likes this

[6790cc07e1be0Kolya]

Well I like them for their sinister tech appeal. Also they look great in the cat litter box.
By the way, you should really use GIF or PNG compression.

[6790cc07e1fdegaspalorz]

 

By the way, you should really use GIF or PNG compression.

Also, RAR = bad.

Could you try to do a side-view map? Just like the original but with more detail.

[6790cc07e22d2Kolya]

What's bad about RAR archives now?

[6790cc07e240fgaspalorz]

I mean "bad" equals to "why use proprietary archive formats (creatable only by trialware programs) if there are free alternatives that can do the same (or perhaps better) job without side effects?" This generally applies to any piece of software.

[6790cc07e2744Enchantermon]

Because people are allowed to do whatever they want.
As long as you're not forced to buy a program to unpack the archive, I don't see a problem with it.

[6790cc07e29f1ZylonBane]

I mean "bad" equals to "why use proprietary archive formats (creatable only by trialware programs)...

What the fuck. RAR archives are creatable by a full commercial product that's been in development for 15 years, which happens to also be available as a trialware version. Furthermore, several other programs are capable of decoding RAR archives.

[6790cc07e2bcfgaspalorz]

How is "trialware program" different from "full commercial trialware product"? Is it more or less "trialwarey"? Seriously.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use proprietary software (especially if it suits their needs or they feel safe with it), just that I believe free software should be supported first as it has no commercial backup. It is also easier (and safer) to implement non-patented routines in your FOSS programs rather than to deal with legal issues. GIF and LZW algorithm is a nice example.

[6790cc07e2d34Kolya]

Image: http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o173/BMD2/cheerup.gif
[flash=478,25]http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/26zn5PCuSTI&rel=0&showinfo=0&fs=1&iv_load_policy=3[/flash]

[6790cc07e3204ZylonBane]

How is "trialware program" different from "full commercial trialware product"? Is it more or less "trialwarey"?

Since you just made up one of those terms, any difference or lack of difference exists entirely in your own head.

Let's see if I can think like you: System Shock 2 has a demo. Therefore SS2 is "demoware". Oh ick!

[6790cc07e3794unn_atropos]

By the way, you should really use GIF or PNG compression.

I'm a bit confused now, because I always considered png to be an non-loss format. When I compare my psd file with the png file, I can see no difference. So, does Photoshop have the ability to create compressed png and what's the benefit?

Could you try to do a side-view map? Just like the original but with more detail.

What kind of detail could be added in a side-view? Higher resolution, yeah...but what else?

Maybe my stupid questions can be explained due to the late hour of the day^^ (CET)

[6790cc07e412agaspalorz]

It's the use of "compression" term confusing. Generally, compression is ALWAYS lossless since its purpose is to decrease the data length and later restore it to original shape and meaning. GIF, PNG, JPEG, etc have all lossless image compression. However, before this compression occurs, JPEG does a frequency-domain quantization, with the "quality" parameter denoting how many components are removed (how much information is being cut out). You get a significant drop in file size but it may introduce artifacts which become more visible on images where most of the information is stored in contrasting lines (sketches, etc) rather than in textures (photos, etc), even with quality 100%. There is lossless-JPEG, though, but I can't speak for it.

What kind of detail could be added in a side-view? Higher resolution, yeah...but what else?

A lot! It gives viewers/players completely new perspective to look at the map (rather than "here be deck D"). And since Minstrel is monolithic and actually shaped like a starship, I think it is worth trying.

*snip*

Hey, if you notice I took that term in qoutes, you'll see it is used just to mimic your pondering about things like it being commercial and developed for 15 years -  things that do not change the fact the product is distributed as trialware. You probably meant with that it is not some bullshit program written by certain person to make quick buck off it, but a complete package supported by a company for over a decade that is worth the money you pay for it; still, the point was about trialware (and patented algorithms) in general, not about commercial status of programs and their quality.

PS. I suggest we stop arguing.

[6790cc07e4475Kolya]

GIF is also lossy if the original image has more than 256 colours. Same for PNG 8bit which is meant to replace GIFs (although its specification lacks the ever so popular animation feature). GIF and PNG 8bit can both have one colour used for transparency, which produces hard edges on transparent areas.
GIF or PNG 8bit should be used for lineart, clipart, old-school comics, basically everything that contains flat-coloured shapes.

PNG 24bit is meant to replace JPGs. It is indeed lossless and additionally has a whole separate channel dedicated to transparency. So its edges to transparent areas are smooth. Like JPG it should be used for photos and anything textured. PNG 24bit images will be somewhat bigger than a JPG because JPG is lossy. So in some contexts (eg the web) where small image sizes are priority, JPG is still the format of choice.

Since your blueprints are lineart with less than 256 colours, saving them as GIF or PNG 8bit will be lossless and produce visually better results (without JPG artefacts) at similar file sizes.

[6790cc07e48d3gaspalorz]

Yes, GIF is lossy, but it's compression procedure (LZW) isn't . It's also worth mentioning that palettization is done only once (or not at all if you create the indexed bimap from scratch), while JPEG's quantization step is always applied on every image save so consequentive reading and writing causes its quality to decrease. For lineart, etc. it may be seen just after one (initial) saving.

Same for PNG 8bit which is meant to replace GIFs (although its specification lacks the ever so popular animation feature).

I was aware of MNG, but not APNG

[6790cc07e4b41unn_atropos]

Confusion rises^^
In a test I saved the map the normal way (save as png), which doesn't give me any further options.
Then I saved it as a 8 bit png with the save-for-web function.
By comparing this two files I can't see a damn difference (except for different file size in kb terms).
I also can't find visble artifacts in my .rar files. I'm clueless

For the side-view: I will have a look at it. Next time in this theatre^^

[6790cc07e5130Kolya]

@gaspalorz: Yeah, there are possibilities to do animation with PNG variations. APNG has some support but neither MNG nor APNG are supported by a whole lot of browsers/apps.
Related: An APNG of recDeck - https://www.systemshock.org/amb/

@unn_atropos: In Photoshop use the save-for-web function. You can select PNG 8bit or PNG 24bit there. See my explaantion above for the differences. Basically 8bit is the GIF replacement and 24bit the JPG replacement. Of course both can be used to save your blueprints but 8bit is appropriate in this case.

In your RAR archive you already saved the files as PNG (24bit). We're talking about the thumbs above. Although 8bit PNG should be used for the full maps in the RAR archive as well.
None of this is related to RAR compression - just saying.

[6790cc07e5922unn_atropos]

@gaspalorz
A quick side-view of the soldiers ship. The bridge is on larboard here. Does it look like something you had in mind?

@Kolya
So you where all talking about the thumbs the whole time . Now this makes sense at last . Yeah for the thumbs I cropped down the files in order to stay under specific dimensions. Havn't forgotten how I crashed sbf last year^^. Tomorrow I will replace them with png (8 bit, don't worry^^).

[6790cc07e69c9ZylonBane]

PS. I suggest we stop arguing.

I suggest you stop throwing around "trialware! trialware! trialware!" as if it somehow makes a program less legitimate. Otherwise I'm going to continue mocking you for being dumb.

Basically 8bit is the GIF replacement and 24bit the JPG replacement.

Yes and NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. 24-bit PNG produces files that are hundreds of times larger than JPG, with almost no visual difference. 24-bit PNG should only be used for archival purposes or applications where lossless storage is required.

All those people who post game and video captures as 24-bit PNGs need face-punching.

[6790cc07e701egaspalorz]

A quick side-view of the soldiers ship. The bridge is on larboard here. Does it look like something you had in mind?

Yes, this looks good, especially that you've included the ship's hull outline. I think, however, that windows shouldn't be drawn to prevent confusion ("why is there a hole through the bridge?"). You could also put some markers indicating means of vertical transport, eg. wheter it is a ladder, gravshaft, lift or bottomless pit.

Otherwise I'm going to continue mocking you for being dumb.

While I agree on the PNG/JPEG part, I must admit this should be nominated to some sort of "break as many as possible forum moderator responsibility rules in a single sentence" contest.

[6790cc07e7213Kolya]

I understand you're pissed but that's not a good angle. ZylonBane was no more talking as a moderator than I took administrative action when I posted the comic above. Also that's an internal contest that you have no vote in.  

You brought up your point about free software in a rather normative way (RAR = bad), although I still see no objective reason not to use RAR in the context unn_atropos used it. There's no vendor lock-in looming or some such. For most of our mods we use 7zip and frequently recommend it. But RAR is just as well for our purposes. In this situation it seems like a good idea to leave the choice up to everyone. 

ZylonBane, please relax. Some fervour is great, but calling people dumb in a packer program discussion is inappropriate and lazy. It prompts more lame arguments instead of interesting ones and gets in the way of an open and interesting discussion.

I really thought PNG 24bit had been developed as a JPG replacement, useless as it is for that. Nevertheless the transparency channel of PNG 24bit can be a legitimate reason to use them in a web context. Or a flat coloured image with more than 256 colours, if there is such a thing. It would seem odd to develop an archive format under the name PNG.