SS2 No weapon degradation

[674028f214999Fironkkuify]

Interesting how so recently this became such a big topic. Kind of unexpected -w-

[674028f214c82Kolya]

I'd like to summarise some points:
I don't think we need an explanation for the exotic guns breaking. They're alien guns and no one knows how long those should last. Similar for the stasis field generator, which doesn't exists in the real world either.
 
Conventional guns that the Many use (shotguns) might stop working when taken from them, because they tend to grow into a symbiotic relationship with their guns, where their own flesh and bones replace parts of an otherwise broken gun (eg a finger bone replaces a broken hammer). This symbiosis can be seen as an early form of the pure bio-weapons they build later on. They learn the principles through assimilation.

Now why do weapons break? Because the Many destroy them to learn more and faster. It's part of their evolutionary plan.
How do they do it? Partly by manual sabotage and partly through a corrosive body gas that each of the Many's creatures exudes through wounds. So the more of them you shoot, the faster your guns will break.
Why does it only affect guns? Because that's the plan. Breaking the ship is counterproductive to the Many's plans at this point.

Speaking of which, the Body of the Many can consequentially be seen as their attempt at building a biological space ship, which would eventually rid them of their dependence on any machines. You ever wondered why the BOTM sits there embracing two space ships from the outside, growing into their crevices? Ever noticed how the Von Braun looks like a gun?

[674028f2150f3Fironkkuify]

I'd like to summarise some points:
I don't think we need an explanation for the exotic guns breaking. They're alien guns and no one knows how long those should last. Similar for the stasis field generator, which doesn't exists in the real world either.
 
Conventional guns that the Many use (shotguns) might stop working when taken from them, because they tend to grow into a symbiotic relationship with their guns, where their own flesh and bones replace parts of an otherwise broken gun (eg a finger bone replaces a broken hammer). This symbiosis can be seen as an early form of the pure bio-weapons they build later on. They learn the principles through assimilation.

Now why do weapons break? Because the Many destroy them to learn more and faster. It's part of their evolutionary plan.
How do they do it? Partly by manual sabotage and partly through a corrosive body gas that each of the Many's creatures exudes through wounds. So the more of them you shoot, the faster your guns will break.
Why does it only affect guns? Because that's the plan. Breaking the ship is counterproductive to the Many's plans at this point.

Speaking of which, the Body of the Many can consequentially be seen as their attempt at building a biological space ship, which would eventually rid them of their dependence on any machines. You ever wondered why the BOTM sits there embracing two space ships from the outside, growing into their crevices? Ever noticed how the Von Braun looks like a gun?

Genius.  Absolutely genius.

[674028f215231Kolya]

 

I know it's a mouthful. But it solves a lot more than just gun degradation:
1. Why do guns stop working when taken from the Many?
2. Why do guns breaks so fast?
3. What's the BOTM all about?
If any of this contradicts the existing story, I'd be glad to hear it.

[674028f2154c9Kolya]

I just received an answer from Xemu. I hope he doesn't mind if I share it here with you.

LOL, I'd totally forgotten I wrote that post.  It was indeed a joke post and certainly is in no way canon or a real "forgotten" log or anything.

The real reasons, of course, are outside the story canon altogether and were around wanting to remove a sense of safety or complacency, decrease the quality of weapons for non-Soldier type characters, and increase the value of the repair kits.  In retrospect we probably made the weapons decay too strong, though I think people underestimate the value that the system brings to the game as a whole.

Also I am very gratified that folks like yourself, and the community there,  enjoyed the game... man that was a long time ago when we made it. 

[674028f2155acFironkkuify]

What did Xemu work on exactly? 

[674028f215680Kolya]

Lead programmer

[674028f215754Fironkkuify]

So he designed coding for the game?

[674028f215862Kolya]

He implemented the rules by which the game works. If you compare the game Thief to SS2 you'll notice that it's not just different graphics and sounds, but a whole different game. That's what he did, together with Jonathan Chey.

[674028f21596fMr Rayford]

Well, now that we've been absolved of following anything of Xemu's log, we have total freedom to think of a cause.

Personally, I think the best solution was a corrosive gas created through the Many's respiration, and now we can set the log much farther down the timeline, so a much more definitive explanation is given.

Unless the plan is to stick with Wells.

[674028f215a6bFironkkuify]

And just as quickly as interest started, it dies just as fast -w-;

Seriously, no one's commented on anything for about a week..

[674028f215b83Kolya]

This will go nowhere as long as we don't take on the sovereignty of interpreting canon ourselves and establish an accepted procedure for this. Just throwing ideas on the wall, as we've done so far, is not a good way, because that always leaves open the door for someone to restart discussion about whether we can even do what we plan to do.

[674028f215c82Fironkkuify]

True, we would need someone whose the most familiar with the story to put down the procedure that the majority can agree on so that "restart" doesn't become an option.

Question is, who would it be?

[674028f215d96Kolya]

No single person in this community has enough authority for that, nor should they.

Instead I suggest we have a committee to judge canon for proposed changes. I think that we ourselves are best equipped with the required knowledge to make such changes and that we are the only ones who actually care about it. Therefore we should be able to solve our own problems with it.

[674028f2160fcEnchantermon]

Perhaps this is just semantics, but I don't know that there's any need to change anything in the canon. We're just adding facts, not changing any existing ones.

[674028f216207Fironkkuify]

Should we vote on it?  What are the existing ideas in a list?

[674028f2163beKolya]

I think it's just semantics, yeah. Even if we can really get away with only adding facts, it still changes the existing canon through extension. We need a way to decide this which will give the outcome proper legitimisation. Otherwise any solution will be open to be doubted again and we start all over. What's the use of putting work into it under such premises?
Besides this is neither the first nor the last time we will have such a discussion. I believe it's a structural flaw that we don't have an established way to decide this sort of thing after the ideas have been heard.

Democratic decision making always sounds nice because it's so inclusive. But for one thing this sort of decision actually requires expert knowledge of the subject which cannot be just assumed or checked for every voter. For another democracy on the net in my experience never works (due to identification issues, infinite number of potential voters, demagogy, fun voting, etc). This is the reason why there are no polls on this forum.

[674028f2164c4Fironkkuify]

But it's clear that a group of experts need to lay down the foundation.  Only solution I see is if we convinced some of the guys who worked on SS2 to do so, but that's not very likely to happen. 

[674028f2169adEnchantermon]

I think it's just semantics, yeah.

Okay, cool.

But it's clear that a group of experts need to lay down the foundation.  Only solution I see is if we convinced some of the guys who worked on SS2 to do so, but that's not very likely to happen.

I don't think that's the only solution (if it was, you're right, we're stuck). We have a lot of material to draw from: the manuals, I.C.E. Breaker, log list (we need one of those for SS1, actually) and other in-game data. It's just the combing through it and compiling it that's the issue.
Plus, don't forget, SS1 is a 1994 game and SS2 is from 1999. That's 17 and 12 years, respectively. Even the guys who worked on the game are going to have a hard time remembering specifics, I would imagine.

[674028f216b0eFironkkuify]

So if, say, we who are actively commenting here actually read through every piece of canon that there is.  Would we be able to put ourselves as the experts if we all managed to agree on something?  I know that's a bit of a repeat but we are kind of stuck at this point.

[674028f216e92Kolya]

We have a lot of material to draw from: the manuals, I.C.E. Breaker, log list (we need one of those for SS1, actually) and other in-game data.

Exactly. These and the games themselves are canonical texts. And there are certainly more we're forgetting right now. Compiling an authoritative list of canonical texts (the canon) would be one of the first tasks of the committee. I know this sounds quite formal. But the idea isn't to create a closed list, but instead to organise canon and develop it. So the canon would remain open to changes and extensions. To what degree and which new texts would enter it after the first consolidation would be judged by the committee, by fitness with the existing canon and by quality of the entry.

I don't want to be part of that committee since I plan to enter changes for judgement (see above) and this isn't supposed to be about me pushing my own ideas. Instead it's supposed to be the community taking power of the canon to solve a structural problem that hinders us from coming to authoritative conclusions and moving on. I think the committee should be 3 headed, decide issues within a month and members be chosen by nomination through other experts.
Therefore I nominate ZylonBane as a member of this committee. He is obviously an expert as his contributions show and his critical analysis will be invaluable representing the conservative side of canon.

[674028f216fceFironkkuify]

Well let's get all the canon material set so I know what to study.  I know a bit about the story (in fact the System Shock series is one of the few that I ever studied in greater detail) but I'd still like to learn more about it so that what I say has more of an impact.

So let's just focus on getting the canon straight and organized before we have the 3-headed nominations and such.

[674028f21713ederp]

mist mixes with gun powder and corrodes metal, doesn't effect bullets because the gunpowder is sealed within them, one shot however the inside of a gun is given a liberal coating of excess gun powder, this can even apply in a minor way to the biological weapons considering they contain pieces of guns in themselves, having the effect amplified by the fact that the biological parts would obviously degrade much faster than metal would simply because biological things tend to be soft and squishy. or brittle.

[674028f21746cFironkkuify]

mist mixes with gun powder and corrodes metal, doesn't effect bullets because the gunpowder is sealed within them, one shot however the inside of a gun is given a liberal coating of excess gun powder, this can even apply in a minor way to the biological weapons considering they contain pieces of guns in themselves, having the effect amplified by the fact that the biological parts would obviously degrade much faster than metal would simply because biological things tend to be soft and squishy. or brittle.

Why wouldn't a gas work?  But at least that's one way of pinpointing how ONLY guns are affected.  Though it might need some further deliberation.