SS2 No weapon degradation

[67401c31ab0dederp]

A gas would work, i just said mist as it was the originally proposed explanation. im sure even bacteria would still fit in with this in some way for example: they eat the gun powder and secret caustic chemicals. the log could even be somewhere along the lines of, oh i dunno like some guy was taking apart bullet casings and left for a few minutes only to discover on his return that the casing of the bullet he originally took apart was corroded or the gun powder was gone and replaced with a hole in the desk/workstation/tray he was working on

[67401c31ab479RocketMan]

None of the energy weapons, the sfg, the fusion cannon or the biological weapons have gunpowder in them.  In any case, mist + gunpowder is unnecessary and adds a layer of confusion to the picture.  A mist is peculiar by nature and can contain all the necessary elements without throwing gunpowder into the mix.

[67401c31ab70bvoodoo47]

hmm, I was under the impression we were already done with this, guess not. let me sum it up: we have to keep it simple and safe-an unspecified mist that affects military grade alloys should do the job nicely.


why mist? connection to the enviromental regulators, and it does not create problems in the last level as a psi field would (psi field would be gone instantly after killing the many brain, but the mist can take hours or even days to fully dissipate, so the fact your weapons still break does not create any confusion).

why unspecified? leaving as much as possible on the player's imagination is probably a good idea, we have enough plot holes in SS2 already.

why military grade alloys? first, we have agreed (again, if I remember correctly) that the ship is not affected by this (destroying the ship is clearly not the intention of the Many, at least not yet). second, there are many different weapons in SS2, some have moving parts, others do not, and a few of them are even partially organic. a mist that increases friction would not cut it, but all those weapons have one thing in common-they have parts made of military grade alloys.


I really can't see anything that would fit better, and if we cannot agree on something so simple, I would suggest we just let it be completely, or we'll be arguing forever.

[67401c31ab7f7Tris84]

I know this may sound stupid, but could someone PLEASE do something like this for the freakin' invincibility?

[67401c31ab989Kolya]

You mean you want to be invincible in the game? There's a god_mode command you can enter in the console but be aware it screws up your save game so you cannot change it back.

[67401c31abb7eSynaesthesia]

Not sure why the consensus seems to discount the Many's psi-abilities. If they want to force weaponry to degrade (realizing they could use their will to damage weapons), that's a simple explanation. Weapons are simply "not working" as well as they should. Why go into it with this "gas" or "mist" when the Many can create psi-projections, walls of force, etc? They willed it into happening. Just write a log around that and account for people not knowing why the weapons break so often, and tada - you've come up with a short, sweet log that accounts for the degradation issues.

[67401c31abd61Fironkkuify]

That idea does make a lot of sense.  It would also account for why Exotic and certain other weapons (such as Stasis Field Generator and Fusion Cannon) are also affected. 

The only problem I see is this question; if the Many are willing it to happen, why don't they just break the weapons outright?

My own answer to that is probably because much more focus is required to deliberately break a weapon into uselessness.  The Many simply influence all weapons in general to be weaker than they normally would.  And considering all shotguns wielded by hybrids (parts of the Many) are usually broken compared to scattered weapons also seems to add to the whole idea about proximity or focus.

Actually, when you think about it, it's possible that the Many are able to deliberately break the hybrids' shotguns due to that proximity/focus factor to prevent its use by the player once the hybrids are killed.  In other words, the only ones with the strongly-weakened weapons are survivors really.  The hybrids have literally perfect or at least constantly useable weapons until they die, in which the Many influence them to break before the connection's broken.

[67401c31abf2aRocketMan]

There's science fiction and then there's fantasy.  This is fantasy.  What you want to do is start with a kernel of truth....something scientifically plausable and then extrapolate from there as necessary to get to where you need to go (broken weapons) without going any further.  If you start getting into selectively breaking particular forms of technology using mental powers and only when those technologies are not being used by a friendly, you open up a bottomless can of worms. 

I find the whole paradox of how beta grove could have crashed on Tau Ceti when it's so far away a perfect example.  It very likely isn't within the parameters of current known science but JUST BARELY.  You can extrapolate theoretical physics enough to explain how it might have happened and a sufficiently intelligent explanation can and will convince most people. 

Let's try to achieve the same or better here.

Also, why would the many want to break their own weapons? (worm guns)

[67401c31ac176Fironkkuify]

It is possible.  It's been shown that the Many are capable of powerful psi powers.  I believe there was even a psi power that could reduce or stop weapon degradation for a small amount of time.  It's very likely they can do just the opposite.

And to again explain: Weapons that are not being used by the Many are the ones under the influence of the degradation power.  Weapons used by the Many (such as by hybrids) are probably sustained by that connection.  When a hybrid dies, the connection wears off.  The broken shotgun found on them is either a result of the psi power fading and the shotgun's breakage being long overdue or the Many deliberately broke it at the last second to make it useless for Goggles.

This applies to the Annelid weapons as well.  If Goggles or any other survivor has ahold of them and can use them to their advantage, the Many will be right on top of them and be influencing those exact weapons negatively.  If those weapons were being used by the hybrids on the other hand the Many would sustain them since the hybrids obviously serve the purposes of the Many.

Psi powers are a factor in this.  It may not be a factor that stand its own as a theory but it could be combined with others.  It's not exactly something anyone should throw away easily.  It would be complete fantasy if no one else was capable of psi powers but the Many (in which case it's entirely speculation if the Many really does possess psi powers) but psi powers do clearly exist and can play a part in this.  It just needs some more elaboration and possibly can help figure this whole thing out.  It can easily be combined with other factors, again.

[67401c31ac3a0RocketMan]

Let me rephrase.  What makes a corrosive mist less plausable and therefore less favourable than a psi-power based explanation, which is far less rooted in fact?

Here's my problem...  You say why not have the Many just break the weapons when they die?  Well....how do you break a weapon with your mind?  Are we talking telekinesis causing physical deformation of the components?  This isn't just an entropic field, which is a systemmic phenomenon on a molecular level.  You're talking about causing catastrophic failure to a complex, macroscopic system.  Furthermore you propose instantaneously changing the state of the weapon from near perfect to near worthless based solely on whether the hybrids are alive or not.  Why not break every weapon on the ship that isn't in the Many's posession?  Why not just break Goggles' weapons after he fixes them?  Oh wait....they do that but it's slow and somehow the hybrid's weapons break quickly.... you see where this falls to pieces?

When you allow the enemy to have the type of flexibility to render the main character's primary offensive tools useless at a mere thought, you take a quantum leap past any sort of rational explanation AND make it seem like the Many are stupid if they can't kill Goggles (why not just hit the easy button in their mind and win the game?). 

It may not be possible to simultaneously explain broken hybrid shotguns and weapon degradation with the same mechanism but 1 unsolved mystery is better than 2 and we don't want to raise a whole slew of new questions.

[67401c31ac667Fironkkuify]

The primary strength of this theory is that it can explain how even the Annelid Weapons (and a few others) are affected. 

I knew about some of these loopholes.  The idea I had was that it had to do with proximity.  The Many can cause gradual degradation on a wide scale but its much easier to influence if in the possession of one of their followers.  Also, instead of the hybrids' shotguns being near-perfect they could have the condition of 1.  It would stay at 1 until any of the possibilities I mentioned before happen and causes it to break. 

Most broken weapons the player finds are in the possession of slain shotgun hybrids.  Few other broken weapons are found elsewhere (most weapons found not on a hybrid's body are in random condition). 

There are obvious problems with this theory but, again, we shouldn't ignore it.  We should keep it on the back-burner and see where it could fill in holes.  It's a fact that the Many have psi powers that can affect even organic beings on a wide scale (such as their human victims and the monkeys).  Why wouldn't they be able to influence weapons once they learned the workings by absorbing a marine or something? 

To cut it short -

Fact: The Many possess great psionic powers that are capable of being widespread, although this disperison can weaken its initial effect

Theory: Anything controlled by the Many is an outlet for their psionic control.  Anything that is not can still be affected but is weaker because there's no connection.  With the connection, the Many's influence can be near-instanteous.  Without it, it's often very gradual but apparent.

I think it'd be best to see what ideas from this could help explain the loopholes in other theories.

[67401c31ac8f9Mr Rayford]

I'm sorry, but I'm have to agree with RocketMan. The psionic theory just dose not hold up.

For one, The Many did not show themselves to be able to directly exert control over the Vaun Braun psionicly. They only provable thing they used their psionic powers for through the game is communication, and that I would imagine is more a matter of finding the right "frequency" over brute force. Everything else in the game is done by proxy through the hybrids and so forth. They may have ordered Korenchkin to make that barrier on Command, but it's existent was still dependent upon him.

The second, and much bigger problem, is that if The Many are able to cause catastrophic failure of complex equipment using the hybrids and remote conductors, then the minute Goggles sets foot in The Body of The Many they should be able to crumple him like a tin can at the bottom of the ocean. If it's an issue of proximity, you can't get much closer than the brain room.

Really, I think it would be best to just shrug and say "vidyajames." Personally, I've always taken time in SS2 to be more a microcosm rather than a direct 1:1...

Now theres an idea. Delacroix tells us that the FTL drive works by manipulating time and space around the Vaun Braun, but since this is man's frist go at something like that, it's more likely than not that it's not anywhere near perfect. What if the FTL drives are effecting time and space inside the Vaun Braun as well? It would explain handful of things that have always bothered me on top of the weapons, like why reconstruction at QBRMs takes seconds and why security allerts last minutes and why decomposition hasn't seemed to have started yet on even the deadest crew members and why radiation is something that just goes away in a couple of seconds. Time is just funky.

[67401c31aca6aFironkkuify]

I never really said that the psi theory is something to hold on its own.  Just keep its basic ideas in mind in case something comes up later.  I already know for a fact that it can't hold up by itself (like pretty much every other theory).  I was never good at explaining stuff, so I'll just leave it at that.

[67401c31acc0cSynaesthesia]

How does it not hold up? You're trying to rewrite the story of the game and my theory fits in with what was demonstrated with the game's story. There is no allusion to a "mist" anywhere in the game's logs or files AFAIK. The Many wouldn't intentionally damage the Von Braun since they need it to get away from Tau Ceti V, as stated by Korenchkin.

The argument shouldn't be about fact versus fiction, this is a game with a lot of improvised elements to it. And one of those elements is psi-power, which plays a large role in the game. How do you think the Many keeps its people in check? It exerts its will over them. Honestly, this "mist" thing feels really tacked on, and doesn't fit in with the story at all. And as far as proximity to the brain goes, I would argue that having destroyed so much of the Many, their power isn't quite as potent at it is in the beginning of the game. Either way, psi-entropy fits the story. Mist does not.

[67401c31acd69RocketMan]

If it were merely psi-entropy it wouldn't be so bad (apart from the fact that a dead Many brain can't use psi-entropy).  The part that doesn't work is when you use it to explain shotgun hybrids as described in the last few posts.  Psi entropy is only good for a gradual and consistent process of degradation.....which is fine in the sense that that's what we want but it doesn't explain hybrid shotguns breaking nor does it provide any answer at all for the degradation system still working in the last level.  Personally I'm prepared to live with the latter because I think it can be explained away albeit awkwardly.

[67401c31acf2dNameless Voice]

"Weapons that are already in terrible condition aren't going to suddenly magically work perfectly; no amount of repair tools can bring a barely-functional weapon with such extensive decay and degredation back to a state where it won't quickly decay again."

[67401c31ad008Kolya]

...it says where? Info-Kiosk?

[67401c31ad15aFironkkuify]

Well, the psi-theory has two notable strong points.

1) It fits within the story's facts.  Psi powers exist and the Many is known for using them on a much wider scale than Goggles.

2) It would explain, again, why even the Stasis Field Generator, Fusion Cannon, Energy Pistol, EMP Rifle, Viral Profilerator, and Annelid Worm Launcher are affected despite not using the same mechanics as standard-issue weaponry.

[67401c31ad306Synaesthesia]

Exactly, Firon. It fits with the story, which is more important than scientific plausibilities. The degradation system works in the last level because, as we know, SS2 was half-assed toward the end and didn't receive all of the polish that it should have had. And yes, the psi-entropy does explain things rather well. Anti-entropic field talents are surely something the Many know of (Since they seem to know just about any other psi-discipline, whether they use them or not is irrelevant) and would utilize through the worm controlling the shotgun hybrid. So when it dies, it loses the anti-entropic field that keeps the shotguns working. Hence, they break.

There's no need to explain this any other way. It's the most simple and effective way to explain the entropic effect. Otherwise, why is there a talent in psi for it? You'd have to rename it to "anti-mist field".

[67401c31ad41clostone1993]

Actually just to point this out I have seen several Breaks in both ideas 
What about the Laser Rapier or wrentch neither degrades, And the laser Rapier (from my understanding) is nearly exactly the same as the laser pistol in operation

[67401c31ad503Kolya]

Nooooo! The rapier goes WHEEEUUUUHHRR. And the pistol goes PEW PEW PEW!

 

[67401c31ad9a7Fironkkuify]

Actually just to point this out I have seen several Breaks in both ideas 
What about the Laser Rapier or wrentch neither degrades, And the laser Rapier (from my understanding) is nearly exactly the same as the laser pistol in operation

Degradation is probably not as evident due to the nature of the weapons.  Although they might degrade, they probably degrade at a significantly slower rate due to the fact they do not use complicatd mechanics.  I mean, quite literally, you just beat things to death with a wrench (even a rusted wrench would still hurt) and it's not even meant to be a weapon.  It's a solid block of metal with a rubber grip meant to be used as a tool and was therefore built to last.

The laser rapier operates a little differently.  Both weapons may use refracted light but the laser rapier can probably operate for extended periods of time as long as the coating works and because of how little effort is required for it to kill a hybrid.  The laser pistol has mechniacs that allow it to fire energy in similar coatings but this probably takes more effort to quickly create and fire a small burst of contained light energy.  Probably a lot more so when the overcharge setting is used.

[67401c31adbd4RocketMan]

Coatings? Refracted light?

I could ice a cake with the gobs of speculative pseudo-science being tossed back and forth here.  You can't expect any other human being on this planet to follow the exact train of thought you're using to explain away the faults in this theory.  A solution to our problem should be simple enough that common sense pervades in explaining everything and you should be able to concisely summarize all the points in a log that can't be intuited.

What kind of an excuse is "we don't need this theory to cover the last level because it was thrown together" ?

Honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong with "psi entropy" except that there are a couple of little nags that you two seem to want to either ignore or butcher with a crazy Bill Nye type swamp gas reflecting off of venus explanation.

Why not just say the Many are exerting some weak entropic field in a very general sort of way....it does not explain or attempt to explain broken hybrid shotguns .....annnnnnd we need to think of whether or not (and if so, how) to deal with post-brain weapon degradation 

OR

the mist theory
(which works all the time by the way because unlike a psi-power, you don't need a conscious entity to sustain a mist)

OR

something else.

[67401c31add28Fironkkuify]

It's possible to disregard the shotgun hybrids' broken shotguns.  Isn't there anyway to combine certain elements of the theories to cover up for what each miss?