SS2 to Thief 2 w/Multiplayer Conversion...What are the obstacles?

[6750b173de3b6Kijin]

Greetings!

Well...I am not the first to mention that there is a need for a Thief 2 MP-conversion, am I?!

'Tis true...Thief 2 does not...actually...'beg'...for a cooperative mode...
But the fact that SS2 and T2 are sharing the same engine, casts this request right into your face, nay?!

...hm...At least, that is what it does to me.

Unfortunately...I bear no knowledge of coding, whatsoever. I understand the concept of editing and exchanging files, nevertheless. Done it at times, even.

I imagine, feature-problems might arise, like the shadow-indicator...or the tool-arrows of T2...and similar.
Stubborn as I am, I find myself willing to do my taffin' at reduced expectations, though.
"Drop a feature?!? Eagerly, if that helps in reaching the destination!"
Just would not make a further step without the coop-mode. It is the number 1 priority.

So, what do you think? What are the chances? What are the problems?

I will not even start an investigation, if anyone presents a compelling argument why not to.
Has anyone ever tried this project? Are there any people willing to provide aid? 


What stirs my motivation?
I am finishing SS2 (cooperatively, with a friend) for the 2nd time now...But I never finished T2 (life got in the way).
I want to reach the end.  <->  I prefer cooperative gaming.

Thus, I need to have a look into this.

Let's see who shares my feelings...
(Thank you for any comments, in advance)

[6750b173decd6Nameless Voice]

While the System Shock 2 version of Dark has most of the same features as the versions used in the Thief games, they do not share all functionality.
It would never be possible to fully port the original Thief missions to an SS2-Thief port, because each of them have a few elements that would not be possible in the SS2 version of Dark (SS2 does not support weather, conveyor belts, some of Thief's AI types (burricks, frogs)...)

But far more importantly, there are also a lot of important gameplay elements that would be difficult or impossible to implement:

• SS2 fully supports Thief's stealth system and AI awareness, though there is no visibility gem (at least, by default). I doubt leaning into doors to listen at them will work.
• It does not support the concept of knocking out AIs, which is rather an important Thief gameplay element. It would probably be possible to hack this in, though.
• SS2 doesn't have a 'creature type' (joint setup) for a player's bow arm, so the bow would probably be impossible to implement. I'm not exactly sure how the SS2 multiplayer models work, but I can't imagine it being possible to get them to wield bows properly, either.
• SS2 doesn't understand the concept of 'loot' as it works in Thief (an object with loot values, which get combined when picked up), but it could probably be hacked in. A standard stack wouldn't really work, since if you pick up a vase worth 50 gold, you shouldn't be able to then drop 50 vases worth 1 gold each...
• SS2 doesn't support zooming or scouting orbs.
• All the textures and objects from Thief could be used in SS2 without much effort.

Cooperative thieving doesn't exactly make that much sense from a gameplay perspective, either. If any player is seen, the guards are alerted, and chances are that you're all dead and have probably seriously messed up your job. Thieves respawning doesn't exactly make sense either.

The gameplay of Thief just doesn't conform with the standard fight-die-respawn-repeat methodology that works in SS2.

[6750b173df5fcKijin]

Yah! A good comment, Nameless Voice!

All very true...with a few exceptions, maybe...
It was information of this type, that I was hoping for...Of course, I would have preferred a more positive kind, but...ah...('positive' regarding a chance for this mod, I mean)

You almost have me stop in my tracks and abandon all hope...
I have a thick skull, though...and so I have to inquire a little more information, from anyone who can provide.

Please try to help me out on this. I need you to think creatively, rather than pessimistically.
Your comments could decide on wether or not I will be able to evoke the energy required for such a project. (if there is any hope for such a plan, which I am trying to find out)

I understood all of the points you made towards the unlikelyhood of an 'SS2 to T2' conversion, Nameless Voice...You make it sound like hard work, and many features may have to be sacrificed, but I still have hope.
...Here are my thoughts on your arguments:

Regarding functionality

SS2 does not support weather, conveyor belts, some of Thief's AI types (burricks, frogs)...

Hmm...Ok...These sound like the heaviest arguments against the conversion. The following questions may decide wether or not I may still "see a light".

a) Are these functions vital for completing the missions?
    Could they be dropped without 'breaking' the game's progress?
    This question especially concerns features such as weather. Was the weather in Thief 2 a vital element?
    I know we have snow/ice in SS2. May that suffice to fill the hole?

b) If the functions are vital, could they be exchanged with a function from SS2?
    E.g. the conveyor belts. SS2 has moving platforms. Could they make placeholders for the CBs, in places
    where they are required to solve a mission? (Which means, of course, that the conveyor belts would be
    inactive during the mission, until the point where they are used to service as a key-element)
    Likewise with the AIs. Could a burrick do with the AI of a hybrid?

c) How often do these functions appear within T2? Is it imaginable to drop the missions which have vital
    functions that cannot be exchanged?
    I do not require a perfect conversion. I'll just drop a thing or two, if I am overburdened.

On gameplay

...there is no visibility gem...

True!...It makes the gameplay more exciting, though...more realistic, too.
But is it still playable, in this manner? Could drain all fun, being spotted too often.
Hmm...I would be willing to take the risk. If it does not work, maybe someone knows of a way to implement the gem!?

I doubt leaning into doors to listen at them will work.

Aye! Would have to make do with the sound that leaks through walls. A pity, but a loss I could survive.

It does not support the concept of knocking out AIs, which is rather an important Thief gameplay element. It would probably be possible to hack this in, though.

Yes...This would be too tough a loss. For me, that is. I tried to never kill any humans. Know of a many players who had most fun in killing all guards, though.
The mission requirements should not be of any concern, but I will come to this a little later on.
So, could this feature be hacked into the game?

SS2 doesn't have a 'creature type' (joint setup) for a player's bow arm, so the bow would probably be impossible to implement. I'm not exactly sure how the SS2 multiplayer models work, but I can't imagine it being possible to get them to wield bows properly, either.

Sincerely, I liked the bows a lot. But if SS2 demands hi-tech, so be it!
I could imagine exchanging the bows with small (one-handed) crossbows. This means a couple of things, game-wise.
- no bowstring zoom
- less excitement
- less aiming precision (NO cross-hairs in Thief, ever! IMO)
Hmm...Makes it sound really bad...Probably a fault only a few people could forgive.
One big obstacle!
Also, there are no projectiles like arrows in SS2. Hard to get those arrows to behave like they would in Thief (influence by gravitation, etc.).
Anyone know of a way to get around this?

SS2 doesn't understand the concept of 'loot' as it works in Thief (an object with loot values, which get combined when picked up), but it could probably be hacked in. A standard stack wouldn't really work, since if you pick up a vase worth 50 gold, you shouldn't be able to then drop 50 vases worth 1 gold each...

This would be the topic of 'mission requirements'.
I never liked that the missions told me how much loot I required before I would be willing to leave the mission.
I understand that people would take less risks if they were not required to take them. But that should not be my concern. The following would suffice in my book: The player has his/her loot bag (the recycler) and any loot that goes inside is immediately counted into gold pieces (nanites).
That even has advantages. In this case anything you steal becomes loot. Even the cheap candles and wooden cups are worth something...and if it's just a dime (a nanite), so to speak (Anything can be sold in markets, nay!? Who cares if that wooden spoon was stolen?). And it is left to the player if stealing cheap dishes is too lowly for him/her.
The mission requirements will be reduced to the tasks that involve the plot!
(Which means you can even solve a mission if you kill everyone. I understand that this becomes a problem with missions like the 'police station', where you were forbidden to incapacitate more than 2 guards. Creative thinking might solve that flaw.)

SS2 doesn't support zooming or scouting orbs.

I commented on the zooming above. I think there should be some solution. The 'Field of Vision' can be changed in most 3D engines by simple commands, no!?
Regarding the scouting orb...I was reading somewhere of an SS2 mod which enables the player to hack into security cams to use them for monitoring areas. Maybe this feature could even be applied to portable items?

Cooperative thieving doesn't exactly make that much sense from a gameplay perspective, either. If any player is seen, the guards are alerted, and chances are that you're all dead and have probably seriously messed up your job. Thieves respawning doesn't exactly make sense either.

The gameplay of Thief just doesn't conform with the standard fight-die-respawn-repeat methodology that works in SS2.

You are completely right in that. And I can only comment on that from my Thief 1 experience.
I never died much in Thief. There were missions where I was spotted a lot, and the guards turned taffin' into hell, by forcing me to stay hidden for absurd amounts of time (Anyone else who spent half of his mission-time in the mouse-hole beside that guard-counter (Cragscleft Prison)?). It was my impression you always had a good chance of escaping the guards by running and hiding.
So, what would the setup be in a 'SS2 to T2'-conversion coop game?
- 2-4 players (thieves)
- no respawning (who dies stays dead, unless a saved game is loaded)
- increased reloading (after mission-failure or player-death) proportional to the number of players
- increased probability of being spotted proportional to number of players
- increased chances to divert enemy-attention proportional to number of players

What does that mean? It means the chances are good that the game is not going to be much fun...
Unless:
- players are disciplined and try hard to act as a team
- players are willing to remain very patient

Apparently the game will only be worthwhile for a select few, under these circumstances.
Eventually this can be helped out by adding a couple of the features granted by SS2.

Like, revival.
I never liked that SS2 allowed the player to respawn virtually indefinitely.
In coop mode I would have preferred if a downed player had to be carried to a surgical unit for revival. Far more exciting than a simple respawn. At least one player would have had to survive an encounter, to ensure the resurrection of the others. In case of failure -> Load Game
A feature of that kind could make it into the SS2-T2 conversion. There is magic in the Thief universe. Players could have an item that allows them to magically resurrect other players?!

Like, classes.
The players could have multiclassed thieves (e.g. Thief/Mage, Thief/Cleric)
But I am leaning far out the window now. This is not something I am actually planning. Just trying creative thinking...

Anyway, the "fight-die-respawn-repeat methodology" is absolutely not an option for Thief. I agree on that. It seems like saving and loading often is the only workaround to that, hm?

Another question:
Has anyone ever tried loading a Thief 2 map in SS2? By ShockEd, or anything?
What happens? What does it say?

I hope there are a few creative heads out there with ideas on a Thief2 conversion!?  :worried:

[6750b173df7f9Kolya]

You have no idea what you are talking about.
Spend your time on pleasurable or productive things. But don't try to talk your way through real problems. You're wasting time.
You can learn a lot about shocked and dromed in the Editor's Guild on TTLG.
Start by listening to what people say.




[Thread closed.]