Revamping SS2's Multiplayer

[66ee758a81e3aDan]

Hello everyone!

With the arrival of NewDark System Shock 2 runs very reliable on modern systems. This is why a friend of mine and I picked it up again recently and we thoroughly enjoy re-visiting the Von Braun in multiplayer mode. To compensate for the much easier coop gameplay I edited the multiplayer difficulty settings to reflect singleplayer's "Impossible" mode which I - I must admit - never managed to finish on my own. Furthermore, we have one rule: No dying. We agreed that if one of us dies a previous savegame has to be loaded. This made the experience a lot more immersive for us (obviously we have not reached BotM yet, where this rule might have to be "bent" a little bit). Yes, there are Quantum Bio-Reconstruction machines (and "regular" player spawn points, if you fail to activate one in time) - but let's face it, the possibility to "just respawn" without any (severe) penalty if things go awry just takes away the tense and gritty "back against the wall" atmosphere the game usually conveys.
Don't get me wrong. The QBR machines do have a purpose and it is not our intention to just replace them with dull frequent quick loading. In my opinion, the entire player respawn system in SS2 just has great potential to be "enhanced".
This brings me to the point: I'd like to ask if anyone of you would be able to estimate how hard it might be to change the player spawning mechanics for SS2 multiplayer in a way where QBR machines would require manual player input.
Example: Two players are playing a coop game. They managed to find a QBR machine; however, one player dies at a later point, and now the other one is required to get to the QBR (without dying himself!) and trigger the respawn of his partner. If both players die before one managed to bring his partner back to life: Tough luck - Game Over.
There are many things that needed to be worked out, of course - could this respawn trigger be made "ship-wide"? Do QBR's have to be activated once & individually (for the "data template" in better agreement with the game canon) before any respawn function is triggerable? In addition, the end game might be truly "impossible" on hardest difficulty settings. However, with our "no dying rule" and some self-discipline we were already one big step closer to the immersive tension of the singleplayer experience. Perhaps the changes mentioned above could - hypothetically - really "spice up" SS2's multiplayer mode? Maybe that's just me, though, so feel free to disagree and tell me why this is a really bad idea.

[66ee758a82015Kolya]

I like the resurrect-your-buddy idea. Any estimate on when you will finish this mod?

[66ee758a8211fZeebok]

I am also in favor of this idea. I hated how easy and how much it deminished the tension the respawn made things. How possible is it even to mess with that stuff?

[66ee758a82271voodoo47]

I'm not sure whether the game would be able to hold the information about who can and cannot be resurrected this way.

but yeah, nice ideas there.

[66ee758a82479The.D]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. :-)
Kolya, sorry I wasn't clear enough: This is not a mod (yet?), sadly; just an idea.
I realize this is most likely way beyond the abilities of ShockEd. We would require somebody who is very knowledgeable about the "inner workings" of SS2 to assess the feasibility of this idea. Personally, I would be very eager to support any modding endeavours but I wouldn't even know how and where to start here.
Perhaps as a first "workaround" I thought of creating a "waiting room" in each SS2 map. This room contains the "standard / non QBR" spawn points and would trap any respawning player until a QBR is activated. QBR activation should then re-locate these spawn points and re-enable player spawning within the Von Braun. Should a player die before a QBR is found, they will be trapped in this room and the game is effectively not able to continue for them. That's an ugly and crude method that requires heavy editing of individual map files - but it could be a start, I suppose.

If you guys know someone who knows someone who might have something to contribute to this (and who worked at IG/LG maybe :-P), please do share this idea with them.
On the risk of sounding like an old guy on a park bench: They don't make games like these anymore and it is so worth keeping it alive!

[66ee758a82597Kolya]

For practical reasons the waiting room could be the QBRM. Move the start spawn markers into the QBRM and when someone dies erect a psi wall in the entrance that can only be removed by frobbing the QBRM button.

You'd still have problems: What when both players die at the same time? That's not uncommon. What when all but one player leave the game? What about the levels that have no QBRM?

EDIT: Of course the psi wall could fade after a few minutes by itself.

[66ee758a82bf1Join2]

Glad to see another quicksave/save anywhere an unlimited amount of times hater. Personally I'd disable quicksaving, increase the QBR costs and design & add save points as in-game one time use objects, computers to save your data or time capsules or whatever. if not one-time use then costs nanites to save.

I'd design it all for singleplayer though, Shock is strictly SP.

I like the resurrect-your-buddy idea.

Seconded, it would work great for multiplayer for those who play it....

You'd still have problems: What when both players die at the same time? That's not uncommon.

Game over of course. Have to load last save which since they have a no quicksave rule would be a loading screen transition autosave.

What when all but one player leave the game?

Defaults to normal QBR system.

You'd still have problems: What when both players die at the same time? That's not uncommon. What when all but one player leave the game? What about the levels that have no QBRM?

Only an issue for BOTM, a big issue too. They could add a QBR in one of the Rickenbacker biomass-free bits I suppose.
Hmm, they'd need to add a Rickenbacker Biomass free bit for that, after the point of no return (big drop into the water/body fluid).

[66ee758a82e76Dan]

Well, this whole thing isn't necessarily about eliminating quicksaving altogether (although I do agree with you, Join usss!, quickload spamming is dull!). At the end of the day I would leave this up to each player's self-discipline and personal preference. My main point is that QBRMs offer a potentially really intruiging gameplay mechanic in cooperative mode. I would have to disagree that this game should be considered "strictly" singleplayer - it's just that the multiplayer mode is underdeveloped (can't blame the developers, it's nice to just have it as a bonus to begin with). The simple player spawn system encourages players to act carelessly. With some changes multiplayer mode can become very immersive and quite exciting/intense. Case in point: Our very primitive "no dying" rule, as mentioned in the first post. Of course it'd be much nicer to see actual ingame mechanics re-shape the coop gameplay.

I very much like Kolya's idea with the spawn-points in QBRMs. In addition, I would still like to see an "out of map / dead end" spawnpoint that is active as long as no QBRM has been triggered. Maybe it's all these years of ArmA, but I want a player to be punished severely for dying - even when it's not entirely "their fault". In a game like System Shock 2 you should consider every step you take, at the very least on hardest difficulty. With the above changes in effect a coop team would most likely have to prioritise on finding the nearest QBRM before continuing with their tasks. I find this concept quite challenging and it should create more "emergent gameplay" situations (ironically, despite the much greater potential this is something you find less and less in most of today's games).
As for any "post-Von Braun" levels: Join usss!'s idea with save points is great, although I don't think this can be easily (if at all) implemented as a game mechanic. For our current coop session I just save every now and then, each time at bulk heads, or after a particular event in the story, thus essentially simulating a "check point" mechanic. I do feel a little silly, yes, but it is quite effective in creating immersion.

[66ee758a83578Join2]

Well, this whole thing isn't necessarily about eliminating quicksaving altogether (although I do agree with you, Join usss!, quickload spamming is dull!). At the end of the day I would leave this up to each player's self-discipline and personal preference.

As for any "post-Von Braun" levels: Join usss!'s idea with save points is great, although I don't think this can be easily (if at all) implemented as a game mechanic.

I will now refer you to mine & my buddies' Deus Ex mod: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx

Optional hardcore mode that disables save anywhere + console commands and enables save points. The mod provides greater challenge across the board also. Tried to flatten the difficulty curve too, Deus Ex becomes ridiculously easy once you have a few tools, a backward difficulty curve: really tough at the start, piss easy by the end.
With the mod it becomes System Shock 2 levels of difficulty (though Shock 2 has the backward curve also), and on Hardcore mode leans more to Dark Souls, though not quite that hard.

It's not a new idea though, save systems like this used to be very common to console gaming. I was raised on challenging games that punish you for failure. Some PC games have a similar system too, though it's much rarer.

Challenge is not the only thing the mod does, it adds new features, fixes bugs & exploits, improves the functionality of weapons, augs and skills and much more.

I would have to disagree that this game should be considered "strictly" singleplayer - it's just that the multiplayer mode is underdeveloped (can't blame the developers, it's nice to just have it as a bonus to begin with). The simple player spawn system encourages players to act carelessly. With some changes multiplayer mode can become very immersive and quite exciting/intense

My opinion lacks credibility as I have never played it, but wouldn't it ruin the stranded alone feeling? Wouldn't two guns/wrenches at once ruin challenge? Wouldn't rushing for loot & socialising over the internet kill immersion & suspense? Not to mention Shodan's dialogue only ever refers to one player, right?

In a game like System Shock 2 you should consider every step you take, at the very least on hardest difficulty.

Agreed. Simple save system like Resident Evil 1's would do the trick, as well as raising QBR costs.
 
 

For our current coop session I just save every now and then, each time at bulk heads, or after a particular event in the story, thus essentially simulating a "check point" mechanic. I do feel a little silly, yes, but it is quite effective in creating immersion.

I haven't got the self-restraint for that, With the quicksave option always there I just save wherever and wherever I please (usually before a hack/repair/modify attempt, abusing the luck based system. another one of many reasons I hate quicksaves, it completely fucks with gameplay systems).
Plus it's better to have the save system designed for you, then tested so it works and is fair. This way there is no temptation to press that quicksave key as it doesn't work

[66ee758a83853RocketMan]

Even better, what if the QBRM only works if a sample is presented to it each time someone dies (a quantum state is not exactly permanent anyway).  This way, your buddy dies, you frob his corpse, collect some of his guts in your inventory, bring it to the QBRM, frob that and poof, you get your buddy back, minus the guts and some nanites