Curious how the SCP is coming along!

[673fe42550c10Join2]

....The unloading is not a bug, anomaly or discrepancy. It is a flawed game mechanic that should be improved rather than removed.
This is not purist talk, but rather design perfectionist talk. I am not a purist.
I am also not a rainman, even though I am focusing on this one minor mechanic. I just feel that some are missing the point.

I really do apologize for polluting the thread with my BS, but that had to be cleared up.

Thank you for SCP, a bug fix/going over of the game with a fine-tooth comb is work suitable for a "design perfectionist". Even if I haven't had hands-on time yet, I'm pretty sure it'll be awesome

[673fe42550ddevoodoo47]

the optimal solution here would be the ability to unload the shotgun while still in the hybrid's inventory. as we can't do that, moving the slug from the shotgun into his inventory will have to do.

and indeed, it's a flawed mechanic/annoyance, and those are well withing the scope of this mod.

[673fe42550ef0Futher]

I'm with voodoo on ammo placement.

I'm also for having a few more skill bonuses from training..

[673fe42550ff7Dizzy]

  They are not adding to the game, nor changing the mechanics at all. So they can't add any skill bonuses to training. (At least I think)


  Hopefully the patch gets finished within the next couple months, as there was no time frame given.

 

[673fe4255111cKolya]

We're currently running the SS.Org at warp 6 to slightly increase the time frame for zb47 to make the last fixes.

[673fe425513aeMarvin]

But captain, a warp drive circumvents time dilation by folding space around the ship! You should get the old 0.99c drive from the basement.

[673fe425514a9Kolya]

We should send mate atropos. The 99c is heavier than a black hole and I got a bad back.

[673fe425515cdThe Silver]

Hi guys, I just bought this gem and I'm ready for my first playthrough, but googling for fixes, updates etc I stumbled on this awesome forum and the announcement of an upcoming "community patch", so considering that I want to play this stunning game in its most flawless form possible the question is: Is it possible to know how much time I will have to wait before being able to play it with the SCP?

Thanks in advance guys, you're awesome!

[673fe42551706Kolya]

Just wanted to mention here that there is a game named SCP, based on that horror short story website, that we talked about a few years back on TTLG.
From a SEO point of view there's quite a bit of overlap between this project and the existing "SCP" stuff.

[673fe4255181dDizzy]

  Actually the first thing I thought of when I heard about the "SCP" was that game. I was involved on the forums with that game for a couple months. I still follow the progress, but those two projects are definitely separate. 

  I wasn't sure anyone on these forums knew about that game.

Kinda cool 

[673fe425518ecJoshsmog]

The ultimate stairs, I'm protected.

[673fe42551a50ZylonBane]

There's also the Freespace 2 Source Code Project.

I'm not worried though. Pairing SCP with SS2, system shock, etc, should yield fairly unambiguous search results.

[673fe42551b41Puggity]

Is the grenade launcher being returned to its original damage functionality?

(rather than the flat damage value in ADaoB, skill level, sharpshooter and research bonuses will again be factored in)

[673fe42551c63voodoo47]

launcher is the same as in ADaoB.

[673fe42551d6fPuggity]

Really? It's a pretty radical change. It diverges wildly from the developers' intent. It introduces bugs -- those factors not affecting damage. All to make it a good weapon with a skill of 1?

It seems to me that you spent a great deal of time tweaking with it, and that is why you hesitate to let it go. Sunk cost and all that.

[673fe425526f8voodoo47]

as far as I know, the original launcher had issues (most apparent one being the disruption grenades being broken and totally worthless). ADaoB has remedied that, and as I don't remember anyone complaining, I have no reason to start digging into this;

**** Grenade Launcher

Analysis:

Those grenades that do get damage bonuses get more than other weapons.
Grenade Launcher Modification 1 doubles grenade damage (200%), and level
2 is 228%. Other weapons are all 110% and 125%.  Grenades do 35% more
damage for Sharp Shooter instead of 15%.  These are anomalies, but I'm
not sure they need to be fixed.  The only way I can think of to fix them
would be to disable all damage bonuses for grenades.

Disruption Grenades don't get damage bonuses, but with full damage
bonuses, they would take out a Rumbler with one hit.  I'm planning to
give them the damage bonuses, but make fewer of them available on higher
Difficulty levels.  This is not caused by unchecked "Propagate Source
Scale" properties.  It's because the Stimulus comes from the Disruption
Burst (-1309) but the Green Core (-1522) is what gets the propagated
scale.

Also, having Radius only slightly smaller than normal with Linear
dispersion and much higher base intensity would fit the description
better.

-- Moved stimulus from Disruption Burst (-1309) to Green Core (-1522)
   Act/React: Sources: Standard Impact
     Intensity 35 -> 75, Radius 10 -> 8, Dispersion None -> Linear

With all bonuses, 35 damage and Linear dispersion takes two good hits
to kill a Rumbler.  Apparently, that Linear Dispersion is losing more
than half the damage, even if the grenade actually impacts the Rumbler.
I like the idea of Disruption Grenades that are extremely powerful in a
very small area of effect. 75 damage should kill a rumbler with one
direct hit (with all bonuses), but that would probably mean they could
kill anything in the game with one hit.  If they're going to do that,
there should definitely be fewer of them, on Hard and Impossible at least.

Of course, that's only if you double-modify the grenade launcher and
have maximum skill in Heavy weapons.  With only Heavy 1 and an
unmodified launcher, grenades are useless.  That really doesn't make a
whole lot of sense.  Maybe grenade damage should be fixed at about 5 times
its current base. (2.28 for Mod2 * 1.75 for +5 skill * 1.35 for
sharpshooter = 5.3865)  That would make grenades really kick ass early in
the game, when there aren't many of them, but skill, modifications,
"sharpshooter", and research would have no further effect on them.

Recommendation:

++ Moved stimulus from Disruption Burst (-1309) to Green Core (-1522)
   Act/React: Sources: Standard Impact
     Intensity 35 -> 350, Radius 10 -> 8, Dispersion None -> Linear

++ Disruption Grenade Projectile (-1350)
   Edit Link --corpse-> Green Core (-1522)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL

++ Bouncy Disruption Grenade Proj (-3429)
   Edit Link --corpse-> Green Core (-1522)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL

Result:

Disruption Grenades now kill anything with one hit, regardless of the
launcher or the skill of the firer.  The only exception is Rumblers, which
can survive one hit if you only have skill 1 and an unmodified launcher
and hit them right on the nose.  Apparently the dispersion from that beak
to the center of the creature is just enough for that.  If you hit them on
the side or the back, fire a second grenade, or use a modified launcher and
more skill, one hit kills them even straight on.  If the grenade doesn't
actually HIT the rumbler, you'll probably have to launch another.

**** The Other Grenades

Analysis:

Grenade damage should not be dependent on the launcher, or the skill or the
user, or the weak points of the target.  The challenge is matching the
availability of the grenades with the power of the different types and the
strength of the enemies, so that they remain relatively balanced without
scaling their damage throughout the game.

Standard grenades (frag and prox) should be enough to kill any hybrid or
monkey, but only half enough to kill a turret or midwife.  That's 24-36
points of Standard Impact.  Less than 30, it takes three to kill an Assassin,
at 30 or more, it takes two.  I'm setting it to 25.  That's 25% more than the
base, approximately the effect you'd get with Heavy 3.

Incendiary grenades are spider-slayers, and are effective against Rumblers.
Both take double damage.  Arachnids have 60HP, Rumblers 220.  Tripling the
base damage from 15 to 45, Arachnids die with one shot, and Rumblers take
three.  Triple damage is equivalent to Sharpshooter + Heavy 6 + Mod 1 or
Heavy 3 + Mod 2, neither of which is unreasonable by the time you find
Rumblers.

EMP Grenades are a problem.  If they are equivalent to EMP Rifles on
Overload, the EMP Rifle, requiring skill 6 to do what the Grenade Launcher
would do with 1, becomes entirely obsolete, despite the limited number of EMP
grenades available, unless of course, the grenades become even more limited. 
Making them equivalent to the EMP Rifle's normal setting might be too weak. 
I'll try the overload settings without the x3 multiplier the Rifle applies and
see how that works.

Recommendation:

++ create Fragmentation Explosion (-4462) child of Standard Explosion (-2720)
   Act/React: Stimulus: Standard Impact 5, radius 10, raycast, no dispersion
++ Bouncy Normal Grenade Proj (-1346)
   delete link -corpse-> Standard Explosion (-2720)
   create link -corpse-> Fragmentation Explosion (-4462)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ Normal Grenade Proj (-3443)
   add Act/React: Stimulus: Standard Impact 1, contact
   delete link -corpse-> Standard Explosion (-2720)
   create link -corpse-> Fragmentation Explosion (-4462)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ Prox Grenade Proj (-1347)
   edit link -Hit Spang-> Physical (-11)
     change spang object from Standard Explosion (-2720)
     to Fragmentation Explosion (-4462)
++ Contacted Prox Grenade (-3758)
   add Metaprops: Vulnerabilities: Basic Vulnerability
++ Bouncy Prox Grenade (-3444)
   delete link -corpse-> Standard Explosion (-2720)
   create link -corpse-> Fragmentation Explosion (-4462)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ Prox Grenade Trigger (-1268)
   delete link -corpse-> HE Explosion (-3933)
   add link -corpse-> Fragmentation Explosion (-4462)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ Contacted Prox Grenade (-3758)
   add MetaProps: Vulnerabilities: Basic Vulnerability
   add Physics: Model: Dimensions: (radius1 = 2.00, radius2 = 2.00)
   add Physics: Model: Controls:
     Location = 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
     Rotation = 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
   add Game: Damage Model: Max Hit Points = 2
   add Game: Damage Model: Hit Point = 2
   add Obj: HUD Selectable? = true
   add Schema: Material Tags: Material Metal
   add link -corpse-> Fragmentation Explosion (-4462)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ create Incendiary Grenade Explosion (-4463) child of Incendiary Explosion (-1425)
   Act/React: Stimulus: Incendiary 30, radius 10, raycast, no dispersion
   Act/React: Stimulus: ShakeStim 30, radius 12, linear dispersion
++ Bouncy Incendiary Grenade Proj (-3427)
   delete link -corpse-> Incendiary Explosion (-1425)
   create link -corpse-> Incendiary Grenade Explosion (-4463)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ Incendiary Grenade Proj (-1348)
   add Act/React: Stimulus: Incendiary 1, contact
   delete link -corpse-> Incendiary Explosion (-1425)
   create link -corpse-> Incendiary Grenade Explosion (-4463)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ edit link EMP Grenade Proj (-1349) -corpse-> Big EMP Explosion (-4858)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL
++ edit link Bouncy EMP Grenade Proj (-3428) -corpse-> Big EMP Explosion (-4858)
   - Data: Propagate Source Scale=NULL


Results:

- Standard and Proximity Grenades kill hybrids, monkeys, and baby spiders.
  Midwives and Red Assassins take two, Black Assassins barely survive two
  Turrets take 2, Maintenance 4, Security 6 (+ 1 bullet), Assault 8
  Adult spiders take three hits, and Rumblers take 9!
- Incendiary kills any hybrids, monkeys, or spiders with 1 hit
  Cyborgs take about the same damage as they do from Fragmentation
  Rumblers take 3 hits
- EMP kills turrets and midwives instantly
  heavily damages assassins (second EMP or a few bullets to kill)
  stuns and damages any big bots, but it takes 2 or 3 grenades to kill them.
  (Of course, while they're stunned, you can just run up and wrench them.)

Standard = cheap, Incendiary = Spider Slayer, EMP = Bot Killer
and Disruption is perfect for Rumblers.

And all that only takes 1 point of skill, no modify, no research, no traits.
Balancing this is the scarcity/expense of the ammo, the time to reload and
refire the launcher, the fact that with five slots for ammo, it takes more
inventory than any other weapon, and the problem of blowing yourself up if
you miss or fire too close.  I think this is going to be a favorite for
Impossible mode, but a Viral Proliferator and EMP Rifle combo is still
better if you can afford the modules.

[673fe42552849ZylonBane]

That reminds me, the various weapon visual effects could use some NewDark love.

...okay maybe for beta 2. 

Anyway, we could really use a brief summary of what ADaOB weapon changes we're carrying over for the SCP documentation.

[673fe4255294dPuggity]

What was wrong with just giving disruption grenades damage bonuses? And if the launcher is not damaging enough early in the game, you could just add more ammo in those levels.

[673fe42552ce7RocketMan]

I think one of the arguements is that firing a grenade out of a tube is kind of like strapping a stick of TNT to a cat.  Doesn't matter how stupid you are, it's gonna work... really really well.

[673fe42552dfevoodoo47]

the current launcher stays. it would take an unreasonable amount of time to retweak it, and as I've said, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. it's a hard hitting weapon available at low (CM) cost, but the ammo is scarce and expensive. nothing wrong with that.

[673fe42552ee2Puggity]

I didn't think I'd be able to change your mind, but I was hoping for an answer to my question so I could help understand the situation...

[673fe42552fd3voodoo47]

the answer is that currently, we simply have bigger fish to fry. rechecking the weapon balance is very low on the to do list - unless something is completely, horribly broken, it will have to wait.

[673fe425530caPuggity]

Well, I'm delighted to hear that it's coming along very soon™.

[673fe42553375The Silver]

Well, I'm delighted to hear that it's coming along very soon™.

Me too! The problem is that "very soon" was more than one month ago, so untill someone says something less subjective it could be very soon this year or very soon this decade.