Curious how the SCP is coming along!

[6740e4992b44eicemann]

How does The Community feel about altering the teeth jumping puzzle in the BotM so that you can't get crushed by the upper teeth anymore?

No vote from me on this one.

[6740e4992b64dKolya]

Unfortunately it's iconic of bad design in the end of the game.
I have another suggestion for it: Turn it into a tight corridor and force-move the player forward towards the teeth, so that he can only speed up and run through the opened teeth at the right time but not slow down or move back. Then you'd have something that at least resembles the fearful situation of being eaten alive instead of this awful jumping puzzle that's ridiculously out of line with the rest of the game.

[6740e4992b806voodoo47]

I've actually seen people give up at that point. no idea what the reasoning there was - a cumbersome platforming puzzle in a game that hardly has any platforming does not look like a good idea, no matter how you look at it. for the record, my suggestion was to simply place some extra nerve ladders around so the puzzle could be avoided completely (but hey, those who feel like jumping around the teeth would still be able to do so).

[6740e4992bcf6unn_atropos]

How does The Community feel about altering the teeth jumping puzzle in the BotM so that you can't get crushed by the upper teeth anymore?

Well that's strange. In my very first playthrough I was crushed. But in laters plays, I just jumped on it, ducked and never got crushed again (though I expect it every time).  Naturally the player would expect this, but the puzzle is so damn annoying, that I would vote for not getting crushed.
Or change the whole puzzle. Or remove it completly. All of this has my personal blessing.

[6740e4992c16fRocketMan]

I admit it's an awful puzzle but if the only suggestion is to make it less hazardous AND doing so by removing the hazard assosciated with teeth and chewing (so that you can't get chewed), then it becomes even more pointless.  A complete redesign of the hazard to make it more like Kolya said would be infinitely better.  You shouldn't have to jump into a pair of biting teeth voluntarily.  It's like "I'm hungry but I'm too lazy to eat you so be a chap and jump into my mouth will ya?"  It you had a moving wall object that acted like cheek tissue, pushing you into the teeth and a small cliff to get you onto the lower tooth, then you're screwed if you can't get your timing and jumping right but yes the mechanics should be far less cumbersome like mantling and the surface of the teeth beeing easier to walk on and jump from.

[6740e4992c284voodoo47]

thing is, you redesign that place, and people will notice, and yap.

[6740e4992c7c1Join2]

I vote against.

The game has a decent enough difficulty curve for platforming: Von Braun= Beginner, Rickenbacker=Intermediate (there's a fair bit of platforming on the Rick, probably why I like it regardless of the silly layout), BOTM= Advanced (primarily the teeth).

It's the end of the game, a "hardcore" & complex game, it should be challenging, and you can just quicksave spam through it anyway, saving immediately after every successful jump. Just how much does SCP cater to...? I've been looking forward to many of the changes but I am sceptical when it comes to all these minor handholders such as additional hypos, and now this. Perhaps it will be time/an excuse for me to give impossible difficulty a go in that case, though the vanilla lack of cyber modules on impossible will take away from the fun I believe as I love building Goggles and this is the primary reason I haven't given it a shot already.

Unfortunately it's iconic of bad design in the end of the game.

Why is it in your opinion bad design? Because it turns off a lot of players? I do not consider that bad design. SS as a whole turns off a lot of players. It's design across the board is too good for them .

The only thing inherently bad about this segment is the manting, or lack thereof. Cannot mantle the teeth. Though perhaps we can put that down to it being slimy...or something

To improve on the design I'd make it easier exclusive to easy/normal only, but I assume you have no means to do this. If you have to change it make the ladders a touch longer and adjust the keyframes of the teeth a touch?

[6740e4992c8edvoodoo47]

it's remembered as The Most Annoying Moment Of The Game™, and that should allow for some special handling. anyway, I would not go with the full rework, not for beta1. how about adding those extra nerve ladders, and making them easy/normal difficulty exclusive? newbies won't be annoyed and veterans can play dental floss all day long.

[6740e4992cd61Kolya]

Why is it in your opinion bad design?

It's far too obviously a room with two moving columns and doesn't even remotely work as what it's supposed to depict: part of a digestive track. Supposedly people get dragged in there by rumblers to get mushed. And then what? Do the rumblers collect their remains in plastic bags to bring them to the next room?
I think we've sufficiently established why it sucks from a gameplay point of view.

[6740e4992d09bJoin2]

I think we've sufficiently established why it sucks from a gameplay point of view.

I love it from a gameplay point of view.
From a simulation/realism/story point of view, yes, it doesn't represent anything that makes sense for us, but who says the many has biology that is very similar to that on earth? Yes it is somewhat similar but from audiologs and what we see we learn it is different in Many ways. Rumblers bring them to get mashed, and then the remains are digested/absorbed in that very chamber? The other chambers spoken of in the audiologs are for converting flesh to Many pawns, this chamber is for converting flesh into nutrients and BOTM growth? I'm talking rubbish, I have no idea. The original devs should pop in and have a say in many design decisions rather than leave us to speculate and possibly butcher what could have been originally solid design decisions.

Perhaps we are looking for reason where no reasoning originally existed, or perhaps it doesn't matter as it could be left to the imagination, or...
 
Sorry, I'm not helping.

[6740e4992d191RocketMan]

The many's digestive tract doesn't have to be like any on Earth... but it does have to function.

[6740e4992d29bJoin2]

Your mind cannot conceive of the steaks we are dealing with.

I have no idea, but I am against making it easier for sure , unless it's exclusive to easy/norm

[6740e4992d429Salk]

I am all with Kolya and voodoo47 on this one. I wish that crushing section never existed. That kind of puzzle - for me - is iconic for its cheap dead end.

[6740e4992d56bJoin2]

I guess you all struggle with your WASD + Spacebar. Console pads are superior for platforming.
Oh, and the "floaty" jumping physics. Goggles needs more mass and more jump velocity to counter this, unless it's meant to be somewhat altered gravity on board the ships (one would assume it's set to simulate earth's gravity)? ...Saying that inside the BOTM shouldn't it be low/close to 0 gravity?. Can o' worms, forget I said anything.

[6740e4992d911Parias]

I remember the last time I played through the game in co-op. We spent at least 45 minutes at that grinder section hoping at least one of us could get through to complete the level properly. It may have been the late hour (we had been pulling an all-nighter doing the game in one sitting, as is our annual tradition with SS2), but all of us were equally worthless at handling the jumping puzzle.

Eventually one of us would get up there and try to advance, but then get cornered by a bad-guy and killed. He'd respawn way back in the level and have to start all over again. Hilariously it was my Psi character that eventually saved the day by using psionic walls to distract / block all of the monsters long enough for one of my friends to finally get in and finish up the level. It was a cool co-op moment, but frustrating gameplay.

I wouldn't mind seeing it at least fine-tuned a bit, as I'm with the at-large mentality here that it clearly wasn't a very well-designed puzzle.

I guess you all struggle with your WASD + Spacebar. Console pads are superior for platforming.

I don't understand - are you saying we're playing the game wrong by not treating it like a platformer and using a console controller?

[6740e4992dd7dOlfred]

There are platformers for PC which aren't this kind of frustating. Just think about Half-Life, it also has some jumping sequenzes, and the only really annoying one is on xen (the alien "planet").

The problem I see with the tooth jumping is not only being crushed, but actually getting on the other platform. I wouldn't go as far as removing it, but a little tweak to make it "easier" to even jump on the other platform without executing a perfect jump which you only get every 10th time.
Sure, if you practice it enough or just have a natural talent for it, it isn't that hard anymore. But you also have to consider people who don't play this game once a week.

[6740e4992f3d6Join2]

There are platformers for PC which aren't this kind of frustating. Just think about Half-Life, it also has some jumping sequenzes, and the only really annoying one is on xen (the alien "planet").

Xen and the jump module? Highly enjoyable and a nice change of pace. If I'm using M+K on PC jump always get's rebound to caps lock or ctrl so it can be used with my pinky without taking a finger off WASD.

Sure, if you practice it enough or just have a natural talent for it, it isn't that hard anymore. But you also have to consider people who don't play this game once a week.

Four, maybe five playthroughs. You've played the game more than me.
Just make it easier exclusive to lower difficulty modes. Hmm, you can change difficulty on the fly which may be problematic.
My input on this one has not been particularly helpful, so I retreat.

I don't understand - are you saying we're playing the game wrong by not treating it like a platformer and using a console controller?

Oh of course.

[6740e4992f708Salk]

Xen and the jump module? Highly enjoyable and a nice change of pace.

Please tell me you're joking. 

[6740e4992f8e8ZylonBane]

He isn't. That's why we usually ignore his advice.

[6740e4992fa26voodoo47]

while I certainly didn't love Xen, I had no problems with it either - it was ok. and the big crab with a giant nutsack was funny.

[6740e4992fc84Join2]

He isn't. That's why we usually ignore his advice.

So baneful. You need my presence here to prevent you from butchering Shock 2, understand?

[6740e4992fd93RocketMan]

Uh.. ohhhhh.

[6740e4992fe8cDizzy]

Those platforming sections were probably my least favorite part of the game. I wouldn't mind them to be "fixed"   

[6740e49930614Drone-Dragon]

How does The Community feel about altering the teeth jumping puzzle in the BotM so that you can't get crushed by the upper teeth anymore?

Fun fact: In the editor they're called gizzards, not teeth.

Jabber, Yadda, Fhta...no...no Call of Cthulhu phrases.

While I'm against changing things that don't need to be changed, or that fundamentally alter the game design in a wholly unnecessary way from the vanilla, I think that the teeth part should be fixed in a way as to better represent what LGS was trying to do with that part, but couldn't seem to get right either due to time constraints or engine limitations. Perhaps what Kolya said might work, if you can design it to be...both believable and challenging.

As it is, it is crappily designed. The main reason it is frustrating is because the dark engine seems to not be able to decide whether or not you are standing on a tooth, or floating beside a tooth...therefore you tend to clip through the edge of it, if I have the phrase right.

So yes, if Zylon and the gang can get a good design to work without taking away from the danger, go for it.



Despite supposed popular gamer opinion, Xen was NOT the poorly designed set of levels at the end of Half-Life that they make them out to be, and ironically I've only really heard hate for them in a couple of gaming magazines or from one or two people on the occasional website. The jumping with the 'booster' module was fine, if you actually used skill and thought about it for a sec, rather than just jumping wildly, as well as slowing yourself down when you land so you don't go over an edge. Using the module to move around fast during battles was neat too. The main thing I believe perturbs people about Xen is the sudden change of the atmospheric scenery of Black Mesa with the alien bizarreness of Xen, and people tend to cite bad level design as a way to vent having to leave the labs for the otherworldly.

Honestly, without the dimension of Xen at the end you'd have just been fighting more aliens and Nihilanth in a big lab...sheesh, then people would have complained about no bizarre alien world to explore probably, lol. Adding Xen to the end makes Half-Life more surreal and gives a sense of vast unknown to the game, more than the tidbits in the Anomalous Materials Lab did.

Xen isn't platforming anymore than the Body of the Many is platforming. If they are, then the last level of Half-Life 2 in the Citadel is platforming. Every level of Unreal is platforming. Quake is platforming. Every game where you jump from point A to point B is platforming. Jumping at all in a game must make it a platforming game. A real platforming game would be Jak & Daxter or Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. There is a very big difference between 'platforming, the genre' and having to jump a lot during game segments.

If there was anything wrong with the Xen levels, it was that part where you had to jump from the top of those ships to reach a teleport sphere. Not because you had to jump between ships, or even the segment itself overall, but because the things kept circling around for you to do so like something out of a Super Mario game. They should have just made it where you had to activate a ship and jump on it or something with an obstacle to overcome, or found some other way to add to the challenge of that part. If they were trying to make it seem like otherworldly ship traffic, it just seemed too planned to get you to the next level, rather than realistic.

Honestly, Xen was fine. For those that don't like it, it really is mostly psychological. Honestly, would anyone have actually liked Portal as much if it weren't for the banter and character of GLaDOS? Otherwise people would have just shrugged it off as a short puzzle game, with a few people liking it, more than likely...

...you monster.