Curious how the SCP is coming along!

[6740e27ca113bZylonBane]

Despite supposed popular gamer opinion, Xen was NOT the poorly designed set of levels at the end of Half-Life that they make them out to be, and ironically I've only really heard hate for them in a couple of gaming magazines or from one or two people on the occasional website.

Then you've led a very sheltered existence as a gamer. Xen is so widely derided that...
...the TVTropes article Disappointing Last Level was originally titled "Xen Syndrome".
...Black Mesa Source didn't even include it in the initial release because they intend to completely rework it.
...lots and lots and lots of people do indeed think it sucks.

So yeah, there's nothing "supposed" about-- most people hated Xen. Also that's not ironic.

[6740e27ca160aJoin2]

Xen is so widely derided that...
...the TVTropes article Disappointing Last Level was originally titled "Xen Syndrome".

"However, subjective trope; it's not uncommon for players to report enjoying the Xen section."

Seriously there isn't a damn thing wrong with it. It's all rules that you control.  There are no unfair mechanics. So you fell to your death? It's always your own fault and it's never particularly hard (the platforming). You have enough time to get used to the module in that section with the waves of enemies. The bosses are all that annoyed me in Xen, ol' nutsuck especially.

Edit: hmm I do remember one bullshit jump: the one required to enter the teleporter into the final boss chamber. There is little chance to get in it first try, it should be entirely skill-based. But this is one jump of many.

[6740e27ca18c7ZylonBane]

Seriously there isn't a damn thing wrong with it.

The majority would appear to disagree with you.

[6740e27ca1a18Join2]

Well sure, it does have it's flaws just like any chapter in a game. That was gross exaggeration on my part.
Overall  it's enjoyable and memorable for me though and I was disappointed it wasn't in Black Mesa.

Perhaps the majority would have preferred the modern approach instead; tons of cinematics and QTEs.

Anyway, the teeth. Perhaps you are right (this time ), perhaps it is bad design.
It does have it's quirks. It's all rules, but the rules are not presented in a fair way, you learn this section through trial and error? Needs to be studied.

[6740e27ca1d02Salk]

Well sure, it does have it's flaws just like any chapter in a game. That was gross exaggeration on my part.
Overall  it's enjoyable and memorable for me though and I was disappointed it wasn't in Black Mesa.

Xen was memorable for me too.

It was just the memory of it that in the end made me think Opposing Force was a better game.

[6740e27ca2029Join2]

Xen was memorable for me too.

It was just the memory of it that in the end made me think Opposing Force was a better game.

Opposing Force was great but to say it is better than HL itself? You can't be serious?

Bleh, opinions. As I said before, I prefer Doom and Duke3D to HL, though the work of the modding communities strongly influences this opinion (Brutal Doom, Duke Plus etc).

Vanilla it would probably be: Duke > HL > Doom.

Modded: Doom > Duke > HL.

I love the plethora of platforming in Duke also The level design in that game is exceptional.

[6740e27ca22a5ZylonBane]

Perhaps the majority would have preferred the modern approach instead; tons of cinematics and QTEs.

The majority who hated it back in 1998, who loved it up to that point, which had neither of those things?

[6740e27ca23abJoin2]

Yes I know, it was an irrelevant statement and I'm not helping. I've lost this argument.

Please be gentle with the teeth, OK?

[6740e27ca25aeZylonBane]

Yes I know, it was an irrelevant statement and I'm not helping.

It wasn't irrelevant. It was relevant, but nonsensical.

[6740e27ca2694Join2]

Wait, yes. My brain is not working today.

[6740e27ca29b3Drone-Dragon]

As a rule, I hate it when people say they hate or like something just because of other people saying they hate or like it, or 'popular' opinion...but on the other end of the spectrum I also hate it when people do the opposite of the majority just to be 'hip'.

I like the Xen end segment because I like it. Plain and simple. If you don't like it because you think it could be designed better, that could be true of several parts of Half-Life or any game for that matter. Though I hate the Super Mario ship segment. As far as the big mama headcrab Gonarch and Nihilanth go, I hated that the Gonarch didn't look better overall, and the Nihilanth should have looked more like one of the other Vortigaunt based enemies as far as its physical appearance goes, but maybe there is some reason it looked the way it did. It is implied it was experimented on by the Combine.

Opposing Force wasn't as good as Half-Life, but it would have been a good sequel rather than expansion if it had been longer. It was developed by Gearbox, and the Valve guys have already said that they probably wouldn't consider a lot of the story elements in it to be canon. They did say that they might bring Shepard back, but they doubt it. In...HL2 Episode 2 I think it was, they mentioned the transceiver at Black Mesa that, if I'm remembering the game right since I played it last, they needed to launch the satellite to tap into. That means that Black Mesa was never nuked, the opposite of what Opposing Force showed. If I have it right, this adds credence to them not bothering with OF stuff.

That is a shame too, because I liked the race X aliens. I always kind of imagined them as the true original inhabitants of Xen, as the Vorts I think escaped there with Nihilanth from the Combine. I never much liked OF's final boss, it was too planned in structure and the design was just reused stuff from the tentacles you fought in HL.

Even if people don't like the overall gameplay design of Xen, they can't deny the surreal fantastic nature of the place. For my part though, I liked both.

If anything, Blueshift was terrible...but I liked playing as Barney, and some of the atmosphere was good.

[6740e27ca2b20Drone-Dragon]

Something I wanted to suggest about the SCP...cameras. Do you think it would be possible to either make the cameras invincible or give them much more health than what they have? As it is, there isn't much incentive to hack the security systems, for those with hacking, except in the few areas that have turrets. For those without hacking, you just shoot or bash the cameras in anyway. There needs to be an actual fear of the cameras. Maybe shorten the time it takes for them to detect you as well?

[6740e27ca2d76voodoo47]

no, as this would be changing the game mechanics. maybe in the future in the enhanced fork - maybe something like destroying the camera would raise an alarm, and to disable it quietly, you would have to hack the actual camera. disabling the security system would remain unchanged.

..while I think Xen was ok, some parts were indeed annoying - I think some of the trampoline pads did not work properly all the time causing quite a few accidental deaths. liked OF quite a lot, it was a nice expansion for the price at the time. the short displacer trips to Xen were quite enjoyable - although the devs played a nasty prank with one that would always end up with the player dying, and the only way of avoiding this was to not displace yourself to Xen at that particular part of the game (one of those wtf moments I suppose). and the barnacle gun was fun. blue shift would be ok as a free addon - it didn't play bad, it's part of HL canon, there were some fun moments, and running into Freeman again was nice as well, but definitely not something you should shell out extra money for. it could be acquired essentially for free as part of various anthology packs some time later though, so not a big deal, really. and NOT having to fight another boring big boss at the end was a nice change of pace. could really use at least one unique gun though.

[6740e27ca2eecZylonBane]

Just for the record, SCP currently has no plans to make any significant structural changes to the BotM. Most effort is being put into improving the quality of the build, which was obviously very rushed and sloppy.

The biggest changes will be to the "ship" parts of this level. In the original level, it's not at all clear whether you're entering parts of the Rickenbacker or the Von Braun-- they just randomly slapped elements of both together. In one area they even have a "UNN Rickenbacker" sign hanging over a set of Von Braun doors. SCP will be cleaning this up, adjusting the texturing, lighting, and fixtures to make all areas unambiguously part of the Rickenbacker.

[6740e27ca304bvoodoo47]

as, according to the small displays on the Rickenbacker bridge, the giant xenomorph is wrapped around the destroyer, one might add.

[6740e27ca34d4Dizzy]

no, as this would be changing the game mechanics. maybe in the future in the enhanced fork - maybe something like destroying the camera would raise an alarm, and to disable it quietly, you would have to hack the actual camera. disabling the security system would remain unchanged.

..while I think Xen was ok, some parts were indeed annoying - I think some of the trampoline pads did not work properly all the time causing quite a few accidental deaths. liked OF quite a lot, it was a nice expansion for the price at the time. the short displacer trips to Xen were quite enjoyable - although the devs played a nasty prank with one that would always end up with the player dying, and the only way of avoiding this was to not displace yourself to Xen at that particular part of the game (one of those wtf moments I suppose). and the barnacle gun was fun. blue shift would be ok as a free addon - it didn't play bad, it's part of HL canon, there were some fun moments, and running into Freeman again was nice as well, but definitely not something you should shell out extra money for. it could be acquired essentially for free as part of various anthology packs some time later though, so not a big deal, really. and NOT having to fight another boring big boss at the end was a nice change of pace. could really use at least one unique gun though.

  Xen platforming sections were the worst part of HL for me.

  I agree the security cameras should remain unchanged. Plus, even with more health they would be a bit easy to sneak past.

[6740e27ca38e5Salk]

Xen platforming sections were the worst part of HL for me.

That's exactly why, all considered, I believe Opposing Force is a better gaming experience. OF's worst level/section of the game was nowhere nearly as bad as Xen. The platforming sections were simply horrid and didn't belong with the rest of the game. The idea of making you visit an alien world was good but the execution was extremely poor.

I know we each have different standards and appreciations for different level and gaming designs.

Personally, to truly appreciate a game I need to feel there is a strong organic cohesion, a consistency all throughout the game. Half Life would have been a fantastic FPS if it didn't slide on a banana peel called Xen.

What surprises me is that people who enjoyed Xen, like join usss! or Drone-Dragon, did not mind the rest of the game. 

PS: I also don't find any correlation between game's length (time it takes to finish) and level of enjoyment/satisfaction it can provide

[6740e27ca3f5dJoin2]

Personally, to truly appreciate a game I need to feel there is a strong organic cohesion, a consistency all throughout the game. Half Life would have been a fantastic FPS if it didn't slide on a banana peel called Xen.

What surprises me is that people who enjoyed Xen, like join usss! or Drone-Dragon, did not mind the rest of the game. 

There is platforming all throughout Half-life and Xen is the peak of platforming challenge, as it should be because it's the end of the game. To me it fits perfectly. Same with System Shock, there is a decent difficulty curve for platforming, but as said before there is a bit too much trial and error required with the teeth perhaps, but it didn't bother me. I don't mind trial and error (within reason), I enjoy hardcore Japanese games after all.

PS: I also don't find any correlation between game's length (time it takes to finish) and level of enjoyment/satisfaction it can provide

I do. If System Shock 2 was 3 hours long that would have been extremely disappointing. No time for the story to develop, no time for the RPG systems to progress, and no time to enjoy the game properly in general. I personally wish Shock 2 was longer, but it's playtime is still more than satisfactory, I just wish all great games were longer somehow and not to the detriment of what is already there

@Drone Dragon: Yeah good suggestion with the cameras. Another thing to scale with difficulty level I think (if possible).

[6740e27ca4644Drone-Dragon]

What surprises me is that people who enjoyed Xen, like join usss! or Drone-Dragon, did not mind the rest of the game. 

Err, not really sure what you mean but I found the rest of the game well designed. No worse or better than Xen really, and HL is one of my fave games. There will most of the time in a game be some minor inconsistencies, like why a certain place or door isn't more realistically connected or designed. Sometimes developers get an idea in their heads so deep that they forget about realism here and there. I think certain aspects of the HL chapter called, I believe, On a Rail, was somewhat a good example, as some of the rail paths didn't make sense if memory serves.

@Drone Dragon: Yeah good suggestion with the cameras. Another thing to scale with difficulty level I think (if possible).

  ......What have you done with the real Join?

  But yeah, if they do this in the extras later, that would be good to have the camera toughness scale with difficulty. Knowing me, I'd want the cameras either invincible or really tough on impossible.



Oh and I gotta ask again for those concerned...please, if it isn't too much trouble reduce the amount of health items, at least on impossible and hard. I mean, if it's too much trouble, we can gimp ourselves or something, but it would be greatly appreciated.

The amount of damage that melee increasing psi power provides should be reduced a good bit.

Rumblers have this...problem, glitch, or design flaw where they don't attack you when they get close to you like they should. They tend to just run up against you a lot as long as you back up. This should be remedied to make them more of a challenge. I think it might be their attack animation slowing their reaction.

[6740e27ca4adbJoin2]

......What have you done with the real Join?

What? I disagreed with you before because you were making all kinds of suggestions without knowing the source material. You know SS well therefore what you say has more weight. Cameras indeed are not much of a threat and hacking security seems a little pointless. We just got off to the wrong start and I was having a bad day is all I'm actually looking forward what you have to say about my mod when you get around to playing it.

Rumblers have this...problem, glitch, or design flaw where they don't attack you when they get close to you like they should. They tend to just run up against you a lot as long as you back up. This should be remedied to make them more of a challenge. I think it might be their attack animation slowing their reaction.

Nothing to do with animations, it's their AI code. They just charge at you and do nothing sometimes and indeed this needs fixing too if possible. They will be the big scary monster that they should be if this happens.

Unfortunately SCP only modifies things in the maps/gamesys related if I am not mistaken, so the Rumblers will not receive a fix.

[6740e27ca4fe4Salk]

Err, not really sure what you mean but I found the rest of the game well designed.

I meant to say that to me, Xen plays like a different game. So the way I see it (it was an half attempt of a joke), it's difficult to enjoy equally much two games that present a very different kind of challenge (if we want to call it so), changing level design so abruptly, losing a sense of immersion because of the constant trial and error forced on the player. The whole platforming idea reminded me more of a Super Mario game than anything else I'd played before in the other chapters.

But yes, it's just a matter of opinions and I do know well what it feels like to be part of a minority.

[6740e27ca5375Join2]

I meant to say that to me, Xen plays like a different game.

Gameplay-wise Xen introduces one new mechanic and has a little more platforming than usual (in a game packed full with forced platforming), it's not much of a difference when it comes to how it plays.

losing a sense of immersion because of the constant trial and error forced on the player.

Speak for yourself. The majority of jumps are entirely skill-based and obvious in what to do.

But yes, it's just a matter of opinions and I do know well what it feels like to be part of a minority.

With Xen it's probably just more a case of a very vocal minority crying about not having the skillz :p

[6740e27ca565dZylonBane]

With Xen it's probably just more a case of a very vocal minority crying about not having the skillz :p

No, it isn't. Most people didn't like it.

[6740e27ca577dJoin2]

Which is probably why we got that boring, mindless, anticlimactic power trip ending in Half-Life 2. Though overall HL2 isn't as good as the first anyway imo.