Curious how the SCP is coming along!

[67408bb481546The Silver]

I love this elitist 'My minority is right, everyone else is incompetent' argument!

[67408bb481903ZylonBane]

Which is probably why we got that boring, mindless, anticlimactic power trip ending in Half-Life 2.

I assume you're referring to the gravity gun rampage that pretty much everyone loved, and which actually had a buttload of environmental puzzles.

[67408bb481d54Salk]

With Xen it's probably just more a case of a very vocal minority crying about not having the skillz :p

I don't mean to sound rude but I consider myself pretty skilled at video gaming. I am not afraid of challenging action games (I have recently survived Demon Souls without *ever* dying once - granted, it took me some time to accomplish that; before that I played games like Ninja Gaiden Black and Sigma) but that is not the point.

The point is that a game has its own identity and "direction" from the very beginning and changing this policy just at the end of it for some obscure reason is not a welcome change.

I am for variety too but if done sensibly. To me, Xen is a bad example of level design. I respect your idea, but saying that Xen introduces only minor difference with the rest of the game is, to my ears, a bestiality.

I don't hold against a game to have (silly) platforming, 8-bit Super Mario sections. I played and enjoyed Super Mario Galaxy, for example. What bothered me was the change of direction that Valve took with Xen. But I start to sound like a broken record now and I am spamming this nice thread (I apologize to Kolya, ZylonBane, voodoo47 and all others) so it's my last comment on Xen.

Let's go back to SCP, which is way much more interesting than our HL babbling...

[67408bb4822f9Join2]

@Salk: Yes, I guess we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. On all points.

Well done for beating Demon's without dying by the way, that's impressive. I considered giving it a shot with Dark Souls 2 just the other day but fuck that. Plus I don't like to speedrun great games, or abuse cheap tactics, which is what is required for such a feat. It's still impressive though because that is a true challenge in gaming.
Ninja gaiden (the first one on xbox)? Another hardcore classic, and plenty platforming too.

I assume you're referring to the gravity gun rampage that pretty much everyone loved, and which actually had a buttload of environmental puzzles.

The rampage did? Hazy memory, all I remember is pointing and clicking at people for a good 10 minutes. The gravity gun BEFORE was awesome and took skill to use, then it became the click 2 win gun. It has been many years though but I found the Citadel very anti-climatic overall tbh. Xen on the other hand, mostly awesome. 

I love this elitist 'My minority is right, everyone else is incompetent' argument!

You didn't detect the sarcasm, though I didn't convey it obviously either mind you. ...and I was only half joking.

I don't hold against a game to have (silly) platforming

As in platforming in general is silly or just Xen? Because pretty much every great shooter back in the day, and the souls games, and Ninja Gaiden had tons of platforming. All integral to the design. It's something I sorely miss in most modern shooters/action games, and if it does exist it's ridiculously easy and unsatisfying. Only exception is the Souls games perhaps, the great hollow for example has some tough platforming, but the platforming mechanics in that series do need an update.

[67408bb482436Dizzy]

 Xen platforming was poorly designed in my opinion. Difficulty is not the problem with the platforming sections, it's the terrible design. Argue about it all you want, but one thing that won't change are the opinions people have of a game that's about 16 years old.

         

[67408bb48253bJoin2]

You're going to have to be specific. What exactly makes it terrible design, in your opinion. Because all I'm seeing is a lot of bad mouthing but no reasoning given. Well, except salk claiming it all being trial and error, which is a silly claim.

[67408bb482614ZylonBane]

Okay now you're just trolling. You have to be.

[67408bb482931Join2]

Okay now you're just trolling. You have to be.

"By popular opinion...", "The majority disagrees", "Terribly Designed". No reasoning.

If popular opinion was any accurate measurement of art then Call of Duty is the greatest game of all time and System Shock is one of the worst. We need data we can analyse, in an attempt to be objective. Screenshots with text explaining the process required to tackle what is in the shot would at least be something. I've tried to pick apart certain aspects, I mentioned one trial and error jump, and that I dislike nutsack which I will now elaborate upon: primarily because it's invincible until you get him down in his pit, which is rather ridiculous: "here player, waste all your ammo and health battling this foe that is invincible, only invincible enemy in the game, and the only way you will discover this is by unloading into it for 5 minutes". THAT is terrible design, but it was not intended mind you, sometimes nutsack would stay and fight rather than running to his pit after a certain amount of damage is taken, but it should have been picked up in playtesting. Rest of Xen? Is see few problems.

Edit: The three-headed thing in the chapter "the pit" is invincible also, but you are specifically told to turn on the fuel pumps and what have you so it's not a problem.

[67408bb482b90Kolya]

I named a few objective reasons earlier:
Design: It's a room with meat textures on the walls and moving white columns in the middle. It doesn't look like nor work as part of a digestive tract. It looks like a jumping puzzle. SS2 often has a high level of abstraction (rooms with no proper exits, "shops" in the mall that are only recognised as shops by the sign over the door, etc.) but we brush over those mentally because they're concessions to...

Gameplay: Most players fall down way too often. It's frustrating. In the original game that part even has to be repeated when dying after the tooth room. Thankfully Nameless solved this long ago by moving the save points in ADaoB as well as Crion's impossible multiplayer mod (probably also in SecMod).

[67408bb482d4aJoin2]

We were discussing Xen there, I wanted an objective approach to Xen, but the teeth too of course (and more importantly mind you)! What you just posted is constructive and on-topic, and mostly full of win, though still a bit shy with the gameplay aspect, for example who is to say ALL players fall often.
I find the idea of redesigning the teeth with the incentive of fixing "terrible design" somewhat agreeable. Xen however, polishing yes, but to completely redesign it with the perspective that it is terribly designed across the board is wrong.

Also what do you mean "in the original game that part has to be repeated if...". Was there no save anywhere feature in the original, or are you referring to the multiplayer/co-op that is the antitheses of what an Immersive Sim is? Must be the latter judging by the mod examples, and it is still a valid point, the game shipped with multiplayer so this needed fixing.

[67408bb482e31Kolya]

I was referring to multiplayer SS2. I should have made this more clear.

[67408bb482f2fJoin2]

Yeah I've only played SS2 with your magnificent tool so I wasn't sure on the details (though it was still pretty obvious, and so few PC games do not have quicksave to my annoyance). Thanks again for the tool, it's truly appreciated.

Edited for clarity.

[67408bb4844a0Drone-Dragon]

Unfortunately SCP only modifies things in the maps/gamesys related if I am not mistaken, so the Rumblers will not receive a fix.

I thought the SCP was going to fix bugs and the like too...they really should fix this in the SCP, as it is a bug.

I don't think LGS intended for the Rumblers to be a joke enemy. Come on Zylon...work that magic!

I meant to say that to me, Xen plays like a different game. So the way I see it (it was an half attempt of a joke), it's difficult to enjoy equally much two games that present a very different kind of challenge (if we want to call it so), changing level design so abruptly, losing a sense of immersion because of the constant trial and error forced on the player. The whole platforming idea reminded me more of a Super Mario game than anything else I'd played before in the other chapters.

But yes, it's just a matter of opinions and I do know well what it feels like to be part of a minority.

Without changing level design there wouldn't be much variety. I think it is less of that Xen was badly designed, and more of taking a player out of what is familiar. I think people loved the alien parts of Crysis which were different from the rest of the game in many ways. I think people just got frustrated with Xen because they chose to use trial and error rather than stopping and thinking about where to jump from floating rock to floating rock and it was more than just running through shooting. Because they didn't think about where would be a good place to land without getting hurt, therefore dieing, they got frustrated. People got frustrated with some of the response choices in Mass Effect 2, yet others had no problem. Why? More than likely they didn't stop to think about what the response might actually cause to happen.

All games are somewhat trial and error...the ideal game though is 80-90% skill and 10-20% trial and error.

If Xen had just been more 'run and gun', rather than 'run, jump, and gun' people who didn't like it probably would have. Why even have a jump button, apparently people tend to think it is platforming if you have to jump a lot with a button that makes you jump. All of Half-Life had a lot of crouching...I guess it isn't a shooter but a crouchformer.

I'm not getting mad at you Salk, I'm just speaking(ranting) in general terms I suppose. People are not going to like certain parts of games, that is fine. In the original American Mcgee's Alice, I never cared for the underwater swimming parts, but not because they were different from the rest of the game, that is just what happened and where she went in the story, and you had to do what you had to do. I didn't like it because it was kinda boring. You should have been able to use your other toys underwater against other enemies they should have made for underwater areas aside from snarks(not HL snarks ).

No, it isn't. Most people didn't like it.

A trope and gaming magazines say so! It must be true! All 5 bajillion Survivor T.V. shows had lots of watchers supposedly...the shows were still dungheaps.

I love this elitist 'My minority is right, everyone else is incompetent' argument!

If our positions were reversed you'd still disagree with me, except you'd say I was on the bandwagon...so what is your point except to troll? If you have a disagreement, fine...but don't pop in to be an ass.

I named a few objective reasons earlier:
Design: It's a room with meat textures on the walls and moving white columns in the middle. It doesn't look like nor work as part of a digestive tract. It looks like a jumping puzzle. SS2 often has a high level of abstraction (rooms with no proper exits, "shops" in the mall that are only recognised as shops by the sign over the door, etc.) but we brush over those mentally because they're concessions to...

Gameplay: Most players fall down way too often. It's frustrating. In the original game that part even has to be repeated when dying after the tooth room. Thankfully Nameless solved this long ago by moving the save points in ADaoB as well as Crion's impossible multiplayer mod (probably also in SecMod).

I agree with you, even if the part itself is not changed, the overall setup should be more realistic. Though I would love the area itself to still have the challenge without the game forgetting that you can't phase through surfaces.

...Half-Life 2 end part, Super Gravity Gun, etc.

For Zylon, Join, and anyone whom it concerns, the end part with the Super G-Gun was not horrible. I loved using the Super G-Gun, 'twas fun. They should have put a bit more enemies to fight with it to make it more challenging, as the only hard part was avoiding Combine gunfire while climbing Breen's teleport...column?, and maybe the Strider part, but I can't really complain, I love that whole thing regardless of some difficulty lacking. What I hated about the end of HL2 was the disappointing final 'boss' fight. Then again, I hated the general lack of interesting bosses overall, but that isn't the only beef I have with the ending. The final boss fight in HL2 was not in any way skill related. It boiled down to one factor...do you have enough health to not die before the gunships kill you? If you do, rapid shot energy balls into the generator/portal focus to win, if not...reload to an earlier save.

I have to disagree with you Join, on Half-Life 2 not being as good as the first. Overall, I liked many aspects of it more, especially there actually being more characters. The only things I didn't like about it were the bosses, as I've said, and a problem the first HL had, an overabundance of ammo...except those energy orbs for the combine rifle, those things were really way too rare, and even in close quarters the things missed all but like one enemy. Should have had more of those and less of other stuff.

I dislike nutsack which I will now elaborate upon: primarily because it's invincible until you get him down in his pit, which is rather ridiculous: "here player, waste all your ammo and health battling this foe that is invincible, only invincible enemy in the game, and the only way you will discover this is by unloading into it for 5 minutes". THAT is terrible design, but it was not intended mind you, sometimes nutsack would stay and fight rather than running to his pit after a certain amount of damage is taken, but it should have been picked up in playtesting. Rest of Xen? Is see few problems.

Maybe I'm having delusions...but I swear I remember killing that thing before it reached the pit. Don't get me wrong, I played through HL many times, so I know when you kill it in the pit it groans as it's dieing and shakes the place, but I swear I think I killed it earlier and it did that. Wait, I think I may be remembering things wrong, it might be that you actually can hurt it, but you have to shoot it one or two last times in the pit to actually kill it because of the scripted stuff.



I could always start a short-lived Half-Life thread if this stuff takes up too much of the SCP thread. To be honest, we've all discussed it enough, it has pretty much become "Xen is bad" "Xen is good".

I just wanna play SS2 with the SCP in it. Eventually.

[67408bb484f5bJoin2]

All games are somewhat trial and error...the ideal game though is 80-90% skill and 10-20% trial and error.

I dunno, the Souls games, or plenty hardcore JP games for that matter, are very skill based, but there is still a lot of trial and error and it is magnificent 

apparently people tend to think it is platforming if you have to jump a lot with a button that makes you jump.

Urm, what is featured in HL is most definitely platforming. It is a shooter with (a lot of) platforming, though it has decent sim design too.

I guess it isn't a shooter but a crouchformer.

No, it's a shooter with crouchforming. Though I don't think crouchforming should qualify as a genre/notable gameplay element like platforming is. Though crouching is still very much important.

I never cared for the underwater swimming parts

Swimming levels are another widely feared/hated level type too. Personally I love them for the variety, as long as they don't outstay their welcome.

I have to disagree with you Join, on Half-Life 2 not being as good as the first.

Plenty recycled music from HL1, less platforming than HL1, too many boring vehicle sections, few notable gameplay improvements mechanically speaking (gravity gun, carrying objects in hand, and sprinting only), and anti-climatic ending/last level. The physics puzzles throughout the game were cool though, and indeed the gravity gun.
Levels were rather open which I cannot really knock, but they were never filled with anything interesting off the beaten path, little interesting optional content.
Some of the stuff you cannot miss was great fun though, Ravenholm was physics madness. I only prefer HL1 by a very small margin.
A big part that influences my opinion which really shouldn't is just how "cool" I find HL1 to be. Secret facility, experimental projects of all kinds, fucking LASERS everywhere (usually as platforming obstacles), plenty great scripted events, you take part in the experiment and witness the events that lead to the Alien invasion, it's all very varied and colourful, whilst HL2 has a drab unique atmosphere, dunno, I just find HL1 to be way cooler than HL2 overall and it's purely subjective, and I find the level design to be better and more challenging overall. Way too much boring story in HL2 as well. I couldn't give a shit about anything that Alyx chick said, or the dude in Ravenholm, I'm not sure why such a disconnect when I liked HL1's story/dialogue.

[67408bb48584eThe Silver]

If our positions were reversed you'd still disagree with me, except you'd say I was on the bandwagon...so what is your point except to troll? If you have a disagreement, fine...but don't pop in to be an ass.

If you say so... and I haven't quoted you nor I was actually referring to you really. But apparently you build excuses in your mind to call me an ass, so yes sure go on.

[67408bb486385Drone-Dragon]

No, it's a shooter with crouchforming. Though I don't think crouchforming should qualify as a genre/notable gameplay element like platforming is. Though crouching is still very much important.

Swimming levels are another widely feared/hated level type too. Personally I love them for the variety, as long as they don't outstay their welcome.
 

Plenty recycled music from HL1, less platforming than HL1, too many boring vehicle sections, few notable gameplay improvements mechanically speaking (gravity gun, carrying objects in hand, and sprinting only), and anti-climatic ending/last level. The physics puzzles throughout the game were cool though, and indeed the gravity gun.
Levels were rather open which I cannot really knock, but they were never filled with anything interesting off the beaten path, little interesting optional content.
Some of the stuff you cannot miss was great fun though, Ravenholm was physics madness. I only prefer HL1 by a very small margin.
A big part that influences my opinion which really shouldn't is just how "cool" I find HL1 to be. Secret facility, experimental projects of all kinds, fucking LASERS everywhere (usually as platforming obstacles), plenty great scripted events, you take part in the experiment and witness the events that lead to the Alien invasion, it's all very varied and colourful, whilst HL2 has a drab unique atmosphere, dunno, I just find HL1 to be way cooler than HL2 overall and it's purely subjective, and I find the level design to be better and more challenging overall. Way too much boring story in HL2 as well. I couldn't give a shit about anything that Alyx chick said, or the dude in Ravenholm, I'm not sure why such a disconnect when I liked HL1's story/dialogue.

Actually I meant the crouchforming thing as a joke to rag on people that didn't like the jumping of Xen.

I didn't mean the swimming thing in particular, it was just an example of something I didn't like of no particular fault other than it could have been less boring.

I'm glad they brought some of the old tracks back. It was great nostalgia, and it fits the game fine. There were plenty of new tracks too. I'm pretty sure there were more new ones than revamped old ones.

Valve never made good use of the open areas. Honestly there was a lot of potential for the coastline area in HL2, but they didn't put enough stuff for you to do. The same is true of some of the city areas. There should have been more apartments and other buildings to search through like factories, commercial areas, restaurants, etc. Of course done in a way as to not be tedious or boring, more or less.

I wouldn't say HL's level design was any more or less challenging than HL2. Both had some twitch reaction things, though HL2 probably had a bit more here and there. Overall they were about the same in that department as far as I could tell.

If anything HL2 had too many scripted events, not of themselves, but rather ones that seemed to put you in a precarious situation that couldn't be resolved until you finished the scripted event, if memory serves. Like the fight with the gunship on the coastal road. I could swear you should be able to do damage to it with the buggy's gauss gun. For some reason though, the thing has to be killed with the rocket launcher up in the wreckage, thereby making you have to potentially die or take a lot of damage at least until you figure out the script trigger to be able to kill it(using the launcher). Unless of course the gauss just couldn't damage it, but since it is a vehicle mounted gauss as opposed to the handheld one in the first game, and that first one could take down armored military choppers, you'd think that the second game's better gun could take down an organic gunship. Maybe the gunship's hide is too thick? You'd think a gauss would be better than a rocket then.

Not sure why you wouldn't like the dialogue of HL2 as much as HL. There wasn't a whole lot in the first game, a lot of what you saw was what revealed things, rather than conversation. If anything there wasn't enough interaction in HL2, I wish there had been more, as you kind of had large portions of the game that felt as lonely as the first game. Granted that is fine, but I still wished to have had more interaction with the group, that is to say, Eli, Alyx, Barney, and Kleiner...maybe Mossman, though even before she was revealed as a traitor as well as after her 'redemption' she was still kinda bland to me. Though you seem to not like a lot of story in your games and more action...which is fine I guess, but HL2 would be kinda bland without the stuff going on with the characters. I mean, imagine if they had made it more like what they originally planned? Basically it would be like the original...a quick chat then move on to more shooting.

They wanted to give the game more heart and spirit, rather than the long walk on its own. Though that was still there.

There is a game called Area 51 I played a while back. Since you like secret facilities with weird experiments, you might like this one. It throws a bunch of conspiracy stuff in the mix too. The game was okay, but nothing amazing, and I can't even get it to work on my computer anymore. It was difficult for the most part I believe, and it had save points rather than quick saving.

If anything about the first game I wish had been better, was that I wish you could have explored more of the recreational and topside areas. Like the underground restaurant with the sun filtering in through the cracks of the rock, that was awesome atmosphere, and topside locations you saw, both in the beginning of Blueshift.

If you say so... and I haven't quoted you nor I was actually referring to you really. But apparently you build excuses in your mind to call me an ass, so yes sure go on.

 

You said...

I love this elitist 'My minority is right, everyone else is incompetent' argument!

...so no you don't need to 'quote' me for it to apply. You're either an idiot or a troll, as your comment clearly says that if those of us in the minority don't follow the majority, we somehow must be elitist.

[67408bb486b04The Silver]

You said......so no you don't need to 'quote' me for it to apply. You're either an idiot or a troll, as your comment clearly says that if those of us in the minority don't follow the majority, we somehow must be elitist.

You desperately try to look like the offended one, while you're the only one offending saying idiot, troll, ass etc so... well, so I'm glad you've followed my advice to go on with this madness, well done.

[67408bb486da0Drone-Dragon]

You desperately try to look like the offended one, while you're the only one offending saying idiot, troll, ass etc so... well, so I'm glad you've followed my advice to go on with this madness, well done.

You're right about one thing...no more food for you. Bad troll...BAD!

[67408bb48776bJoin2]

I didn't mean the swimming thing in particular, it was just an example of...

I know, I was just trailing off with my own musings.

I wouldn't say HL's level design was any more or less challenging than HL2. Both had some twitch reaction things, though HL2 probably had a bit more here and there. Overall they were about the same in that department as far as I could tell.

HL1's level design was definitely more challenging than HL2's. Much advanced platforming, plenty environmental hazards (radiation etc), swimming with those god damn evil beasts, lasers around every corner, those fucking mine fields and mortar strikes, HL1's level design was definitely more interesting and challenging.

Granted that is fine, but I still wished to have had more interaction with the group, that is to say, Eli, Alyx, Barney, and Kleiner...maybe Mossman,

I do not share your enthusiasm. don't get me wrong, I very much appreciate all game's narrative, especially System Shock and Deus Ex, among others, but HL2 didn't do it for me at all. But naturally it's narrative is still appreciated because you just need plot/themes/characters for direction and for it to all come together. But yes, everything gameplay-related is always my primary focus.

They wanted to give the game more heart and spirit, rather than the long walk on its own. Though that was still there.

A commendable attempt. It just didn't resonate with me, any of it. I get far more enjoyment out of Return to Castle Wolfenstein's tongue in cheek plot, or find the Alex B character from Deus Ex: Invisible War more interesting than any in HL2.
*hides*

There is a game called Area 51 I played a while back. Since you like secret facilities with weird experiments, you might like this one. It throws a bunch of conspiracy stuff in the mix too. The game was okay, but nothing amazing, and I can't even get it to work on my computer anymore. It was difficult for the most part I believe, and it had save points rather than quick saving.

Still got it on PS2. Excellent art direction, cool story, and fucking David Duchovney as the voice of the main character. Gameplay is uninspired though, unfortunately. It was a game with a lot of potential. That makes it look bad to those that haven't played it, it's not, it's entertaining enough gameplay-wise, but it's a lot of shooting and not a lot else, but the plot is developed and rather interesting. And exploring someone's vision of Area51 was cool, everything you think it would be visualized.
For a linear FPS Half-Life set a standard. It was very linear but still interesting at every turn, and had varied gameplay (platforming love!). Area51 level design comes close as another linear FPS, but not quite. Needed platforming and the occasional puzzle. It gets boring just shooting wave after wave of enemies, and I need more than just good plot and interesting visuals to break it up.

[67408bb4882efDrone-Dragon]

HL1's level design was definitely more challenging than HL2's. Much advanced platforming, plenty environmental hazards (radiation etc), swimming with those god damn evil beasts, lasers around every corner, those fucking mine fields and mortar strikes, HL1's level design was definitely more interesting and challenging.

HL2 didn't have as much radiation, but there were a few radioactive spots you had to navigate. To be honest there weren't as many environmental hazards because overall it wouldn't have made much sense, except in the decaying and dilapidated areas. They did have electrified water and radiation where it was realistic. There were a lot of traps in Ravenholm of course, but I think for the rest of the game they didn't just want to throw in hazards for no reason, unless it was Combine attacking you related.

Personally, I was kind of relieved the Ichy...Ichthya...personally I was kind of relieved the underwater alien dinosaurs were only in a scripted sequence at the beginning of HL2, those things were a pain. You either had to randomly depth charge them, and hope you didn't waste grenades, or you had to jump in the water with the bow gun and hope you killed them from far enough away before it swam faster than a speeding bullet to chew on your head. I found the experience to be kind of awkward, because as frightening and challenging as they were, it always seemed like the game cheated, as no matter how far away one is or how much health left it has they always seem to get close to you and kill you if you have to jump in the water to finish them off. Granted this didn't really happen all the time, but it seems like it.

To be honest I think the only thing really 'wrong' with them is having to wait half an hour for one or two to swim to the other side of the given pool it or they are in so that you can either swim through to the next area, or shoot them from farther away if you have to fight them in the water. Using gauss blasts or rockets can do good too, like in that dam area. Of course this only works when they surface because you have to have line of sight to see where to fire. That is, if you don't think you need as much of the gauss and rockets for the choppers. Or gauss for the alien grunts for that matter.

Then there is always the comedy of watching one's code bug out and they start flying out of the water in a zig zag pattern.

I get far more enjoyment out of Return to Castle Wolfenstein's tongue in cheek plot, or find the Alex B character from Deus Ex: Invisible War more interesting than any in HL2.
*hides*

*picks up a stick*

*poke*

*poke*

*poke*

[67408bb488829Join2]

Alex B? lol, I meant Alex D.

To be honest there weren't as many environmental hazards because overall it wouldn't have made much sense, except in the decaying and dilapidated areas.

Why are you making excuses for it? It's not a bad thing that HL2 doesn't have as many, I was just listing various reasons as to why I believe HL1's level design is more challenging.

[67408bb48895dParias]

I'm confused as to how the last several posts are at all relevant to this thread. I thought this was about the SCP, not Half-Life?

[67408bb488a84ZylonBane]

Someone who sincerely believes that Xen was a good and well-liked level insists on offering advice.

[67408bb488ee6voodoo47]

I'm confused as to how the last several posts are at all relevant to this thread. I thought this was about the SCP, not Half-Life?

it's relevant, as it's about (alien) level design.