Curious how the SCP is coming along!

[674f3e6629320voodoo47]

correct. ops4 is quite an unfinished level - as mentioned, this was slightly remedied in ADaoB, and will be remedied for quite a bit in SCP. too bad it's one of the few levels that's only available stripped - there is only so much you can do with just objects.

[674f3e6629469Primitive Primate]

I might be asking for much but perhaps the targets can be mobile and move around on rails?
And if the player wants to fire some rounds down the range and manages to score good, perhaps awarding him/her with some ammo or nanites?

[674f3e662956dvoodoo47]

way ahead of you grasshopper, way ahead of you.

[674f3e66296b3ZylonBane]

Right, because that wouldn't be overtly gamey or inconsistent with the rest of the design at all.

[674f3e66297a3voodoo47]

dropping rewards is out of the question, but request for making the targets interactive has already been logged, if memory serves.

[674f3e662988aPrimitive Primate]

I'll be happy if only just the targets become interactive and nothing else, too.

[674f3e6629971ZylonBane]

Someone please remind of anything in SS2 that's interactive just for the sake of being interactive.

[674f3e6629a61voodoo47]

you can smash random windows? anyway, making them temporarily fall down upon receiving damage should be pretty easy. this would also reveal the goodie in that room, so it could work nicely.

[674f3e6629b50Primitive Primate]

Heh, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that I'm fine with interactive targets in the range but not getting rewards for shooting them. Nothing else.

[674f3e6629ec6Join2]

Someone please remind of anything in SS2 that's interactive just for the sake of being interactive.

Everything made up of particles in real life is interactive in some form, therefore simulation. There's plenty of interactive things in SS that have no purpose other than simulation. I don't see why having the firing range actually be somewhat functional is a bad thing. In fact I did it in my mod as Deus Ex has firing ranges too, but only the ones in the training were actually interactive.

The only possible downside to it if implemented in a simulated manner is the player would probably want to shoot them out of gaming instinct (thinking there would be a reward perhaps), which would be breaking character/immersion as it's meant to be a scary survival setting with little ammo. An alternative to avoid this would be to have the firing range busted up good, but either way is good I think.

Hmm, isn't it busted up anyway vanilla? Probably best to leave it then.

[674f3e662a1c9ZylonBane]

There's plenty of interactive things in SS that have no purpose other than simulation.

Asserting it doesn't make it so. I asked for examples.

And no, light switches don't count. Light and darkness are functional components of SS2's AI system, so they do have a purpose.

[674f3e662a3b1Join2]

Breakable deco of various kinds (vents, wall deco). Some breakable stuff has an affect on the gameplay (glass), many others are for simulation only.
Art Terminals (until the introduction of the puzzle, but I bet they started off as purely for simulation).
Plant pots (can recycle these? Probably for 1 nanite. Useless for half the game though and like the art probably started off intended for simulation only).

OK, second two are not solid examples. The breakable deco however is.

Hmm, there really isn't much sim-only interactive stuff...but there is some. There would be quite a few if it wasn't for the recycler. Personally I've only used the recycler once as I see it as unnecessary busy work that requires backtracking/hoarding to boot, but I still wouldn't take it out of the game because it's a legitimate simulated strategy and more forms of interaction, which is good.
You know what I am alluding to there

And yes you can farm a decent amount of cash from some objects but I don't feel any need to get more nanites on hard, even though I am always buying ammo, maintenance tools etc.
The difficulty of the second half of the game is generally easier than the first (minus the platforming) so it doesn't justify the use of extensive strategy.

[674f3e662a60fJoin2]

SS1 has a ton of simulation-only interactivity.

[674f3e662a751ZylonBane]

That would be a relevant observation if SCP was updating SS1.

And I don't know why you're using the word "simulation" as a synonym for "useless".

[674f3e662a8ccvoodoo47]

aanyway, the basic "fall down after being shot then get up after a second" Duke3D setup is pretty simple and easy to do, however, it would require a custom model to work properly (basically, the current target.bin model would have to be rotated 90 degrees along the X axis to get the hinge to the bottom of the model, if I see this right).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrhjEY7YBC8

[674f3e662aac7Join2]

@ZB: Because these objects are useless in a "gamey" sense, they serve no practical purpose from a game industry-conditioned player's point of view, but they are good for simulation/immersion and world building (inventory descriptions of these "useless" items for example).

@Voodoo: Why the one in the middle, isn't that meant to be a broken target?

[674f3e662acbfPrimitive Primate]

It's a zombie target.

[674f3e662af4aZylonBane]

Apparently this needs repeating-- SCP is not "OUR KEWL AWESOME SS2 M0D". SCP is explicitly a project to modify SS2 into the state that it would have existed in if Irrational had had another few months to polish it before release (and if they'd had access to the NewDark engine). This means limiting any additions to those similar to what's already in the game, no matter how cool or immersive we personally might think it would be to have moving shooting range targets, flushable toilets, working showers, etc.

[674f3e662b4b3Join2]

Apparently this needs repeating-- SCP is not "OUR KEWL AWESOME SS2 M0D".

Are you sure? It seems Voodoo has different ideas... and why not add it for the +patch anyhow?

Seems something that Irrational/LGS would have added anyway, maybe.
Though it's not for the "Kewl" factor, but for the simulation.

Edit: losing my mind here.

[674f3e662b870voodoo47]

I have many ideas, and most of them are not exactly great, so if ZB says it ain't floating, then it just ain't. also, as mentioned before, he is the main SS2 guy, so he has the final word, whether you like it or not.

I had to put the model on the side, as the hinge around which it rotates around is on the left side of the model, and for it to fall down properly, the hinge needs to be on the bottom. that's why I said, the model would have to be modified in some 3d modeling tool, then exported to bin, and only then it would work properly.

[674f3e662bafeJoin2]

I respect that. I trust ZB's authority for the most part. I'm not trying to dictate anything, just convince/offer an alternate perspective from someone who loves and analyses ImSims too, and attempts to expand upon them. Usually I can make fair points to ZB and yourself...this was a monumental fuck up though, I have no idea where I was going with that 

Wait, losing my mind. Recap: I was arguing that the firing range should be functional. ZB opposed this. You make a cool vid BUT, now this is where I got thrown off somehow and had a brain fart; you made a vid with arguably unrealistic behaviour (the instant reseting keyframe of the target rather than interpolating back to original pos., unless you made it a hologram or something).
No, my point still stands. Firing range, it should be functional in a simulated manner...why would it not be functional given firing ranges we have now have mechanisms for moving the targets? Either that or bust it up good. Needs more decorative detail also because right now it's just a room with targets. Just a suggestion.

Accept a nice song as an apology for my incoherent ramblings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASiNw1Rwks

[674f3e662bd08voodoo47]

the instant resetting is a video capture thing (not exactly running a quadcore here), ingame, it falls down and gets up fast, but smoothly.

anyway, the question here is, what is functional? the targets would probably have some sort of mechanism that would display your hits on some sort of screen, and I doubt that on a starship, you would actually need to press a button to get the target closer so you could see your score and write it down. so a couple of broken screens would probably fit the best, unless we want to incorporate a full new minigame.


btw, look what else got toasted today;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJUzbWKQNxg

had fun making it, but it was deemed too nonsensical and inconsistent with the overall hacking mechanics to make it into the main build. can't really argue with that. I might convert it to dml and offer it as an additional download for whoever feels like wasting nanites to turn a forcefield on and off (and listen to the extra sound effects).

[674f3e662d8afJoin2]

so a couple of broken screens would probably fit the best

Perfect.

btw, look what else got toasted today;

I like it, good for simulation and challenge of intellect/awareness. It states clearly enough that it controls access to the closet, so it would be the player's dumb mistake for hacking it blindly and wasting nanites.
Somewhat inconsistent to the rest of the hacking systems though, yes.

Urgh, I love SS2's art style with two major exceptions; those ugly ass computers and of course the oversized objects.

the instant resetting is a video capture thing (not exactly running a quadcore here), ingame, it falls down and gets up fast, but smoothly.

Oh...

anyway, the question here is, what is functional?

Yes. Could be more suitable as hologram targets, cardboard and paper, who knows. The place definitely needs renovations though. I'm sure you'll get it looking pretty whilst remaining consistent and believable.

[674f3e662db3cJoin2]

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ulY4hmzI5E

Yes I committed a terrible crime by rewarding XP for it, but DX on the rare occasion does reward xp for certain skilled feats (usually in the form of "accomplishment bonuses"). Also the in plain sight "sign him up for the knicks" egg too is an immersion breaking "reward" to a mini-game. Mostly everything else about the mod enhances the simulation though.
Anyway, see the slider mechanisms on the floor? SS2's needs something like that, or a base for the targets at least.

Oh, and forgive my slow-ass aiming, I haven't played a game since Shadow Warrior and I took no practice runs, just jumped straight in. Not really a good idea without a mouse as it takes a while to warm up with a pad.

It's a bit easy & I should rectify that but I knew it would catch most players off guard first time round despite the "firing range" sign just by the door so I was lenient. That's not good enough though, I love these games because of the hardcore uncompromising nature and this isn't hardcore enough, so it will have to be edited.

Yet another thing: The recoil appears excessive because the old save info data I had of this map is incompatible with the new recoil systems I coded. It's not actually that excessive in-game, not in the latest version anyway.

Anyway, for SS I think there should be no mini-game because of the survival horror setting, plus SS does simulation so well, better than Deus Ex. A firing range mini-game would probably be a bit too "gamey" and immersion breaking for shit scary System Shock, or SSSS. BUT it should be a functional or busted up range, in my opinion. Vanilla is not good enough