Curious how the SCP is coming along!

[674295541e3eeYankee Clipper]

No, it does not break anything else. I watched a "Let's Play" of some guy who did the whole game on impossible with only laser pistols and a grenade launcher. It really was fascinating. I didn't think you could go through the initial parts using nothing but laser pistols. But, he showed it could be done. The power of the AR did not stop him. He decided he wanted a challenge, so he came up with one.

Bug fixing and rebalancing are two different things. You think that a rebalance is needed, you are entitled to think so, and if you are making a mod, you are entitled to make the mod that reflects your beliefs. But, don't go saying you are not doing a rebalance and that you are only fixing bugs and textures and whatnot and try to pretend that your rebalances are really bug fixes. The AR was not, is not bugged. Any changes you are making to it are a rebalancing. Just fess up to what you are doing.

[674295541e81eJoin2]

No, it does not break anything else. I watched a "Let's Play" of some guy who did the whole game on impossible with only laser pistols and a grenade launcher.

Grenade launcher and laser pistol glitch abuse are god-like too though.

[674295541eb3eZylonBane]

I didn't think you could go through the initial parts using nothing but laser pistols. But, he showed it could be done. The power of the AR did not stop him. He decided he wanted a challenge, so he came up with one.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you're not making any sense. You seem to actually be arguing in favor of the position that the AR is much more powerful than any other weapon.

[674295541ec50Primitive Primate]

It took me a long time before I switched to any other weapon aside from the pistol. The major reasons was often because I ran out of ammo for it. I came approx. halfway with only a wrench and the pistol. What does bother me with it though, is how broken the semi-action is. It feels like some mouseclicks isn't being read. Know what I mean?

[674295541ee42Yankee Clipper]

Grenade launcher and laser pistol glitch abuse are god-like too though.

Laser pistol glitch abuse? I didn't know there was one. What is the glitch?

[674295541f036Primitive Primate]

Laser pistol glitch abuse? I didn't know there was one. What is the glitch?

Store alot of Laser pistols, switch between them when battery runs out

[674295541f221ZylonBane]

Laser pistol glitch abuse? I didn't know there was one. What is the glitch?

It's more of an exploit than a glitch. You can rapid-fire overcharged shots by carrying multiple laser pistols, all set to overcharge, and cycle through them. Fire, change weapon, fire, change weapon, etc.

[674295541f50cYankee Clipper]

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you're not making any sense. You seem to actually be arguing in favor of the position that the AR is much more powerful than any other weapon.

I'm beginning to think that you are not aware that fixing bugs and changing the way weapons work because you think they are out of balance are two entirely different things. There are actually different words to describe the two different activities. Furthermore, when you claim you are doing only one of those things and then actually do both of them, people will notice the difference. What I don't understand is why you are working so hard to pretend you are not doing a rebalance.

I do think the AR is the most powerful weapon in the game if you take into account all factors. I am not saying that a mod that rebalances the weapons would not be inetresting. I am saying that when work was started on the SCP, it was emphatically stated that the rebalancing that took place in ADaOB would not be carried over into SCP. SCP was going to fix bugs and improve the graphics, but no rebalancing. Now, for whatever reason, you have changed the scope of the mod. But, instead of *honestly and forthrightly* coming out and saying so, you are trying to pretend that your rebalancing act is actually just a bug fix. You can't be unaware of what you are doing. Admit it.

[674295541f780Yankee Clipper]

It's more of an exploit than a glitch. You can rapid-fire overcharged shots by carrying multiple laser pistols, all set to overcharge, and cycle through them. Fire, change weapon, fire, change weapon, etc.

Ahh, yes I knew about that. This guy didn't do that. He ended up carrying around 6 or 7 LPs, but he used them "honestly". He just carried them all so he would always have a charged up one. He didn't do any psi or hack. Upped his mod skills so he could immediately upgrade any new LP he picked up. Also high maintenance. He ended up at L5 for both energy and heavy. He didn't even use a wrench. He took the Marine path, so he had an LP from the start. He even used it to clear that first duct blocking the ladder at the beginning.

[674295541faf9Kolya]

No, it does not break anything else. I watched a "Let's Play" of some guy who did the whole game on impossible with only laser pistols and a grenade launcher. It really was fascinating. I didn't think you could go through the initial parts using nothing but laser pistols. But, he showed it could be done. The power of the AR did not stop him. He decided he wanted a challenge, so he came up with one.

The fact that someone could play the game in a self restricted fashion doesn't say anything about the AR. Because he did not use it.
But if we're talking about normal gameplay, where a player tries to use all assets to beat the game as good as he can, then the AR is indeed the only sensible choice. I wouldn't call it a bug because it doesn't break anything, but it's still worth fixing because it makes the game less interesting than it could be.

Personally I don't think there's a red line but a gradual difference between bug-fixing and better-fixing. I've always been on the progressive end of that and could explain in detail why ADaoB's changes to the AR made perfect sense. But I've learned to accept that views differ on these things.

And no one has to fess up to anything here because there simply is no definite answer.

[674295541ff97ZylonBane]

But, instead of *honestly and forthrightly* coming out and saying so, you are trying to pretend that your rebalancing act is actually just a bug fix. You can't be unaware of what you are doing. Admit it.

That being said, in spite of the above mission statement, it does inherit ADaOB's rebalancing of the grenade launcher ammo (because it would be a huge pain to revert it). There are a few very selective, very minor gameplay changes we've made ourselves, mostly with the intent of making certain things more logical. We'll be documenting all the gameplay changes in the release notes.

Reading is fun.

[6742955420191Yankee Clipper]

SCP is different from ADaOB in that it doesn't try to rebalance the game. It takes more of a purist bugfix/polishing approach.

Yes, reading is fun.

[674295542027bKolya]

Less trying to prove your point and more thoughtful conversation please. Otherwise I could just go watch the effing football game.

[6742955420538RocketMan]

Come on man don't be difficult.  What he said is clear.  SCP doesn't TRY to change the balance of the game BUT there are a couple of minor EXCEPTIONS.  What part of that don't you get?

[6742955420793Yankee Clipper]

Come on man don't be difficult.  What he said is clear.  SCP doesn't TRY to change the balance of the game BUT there are a couple of minor EXCEPTIONS.  What part of that don't you get?

Changing the whole standard weapon tree is NOT minor and it is not a bug fix. Fixing the disruption grenade bug, or the grenade launcher mod 1 bug is different, because they are bugs. There is nothing that is bugged about the AR. Changing the way it works is not just incidental. It is intentional and is is not minor. What part of that do you not get?

[6742955420a9fvoodoo47]

Just fess up to what you are doing.

we are doing the closest thing to an official patch that never happened. these patches fix anomalies, discrepancies, and outright bugs, including damage bonuses and outputs. remember the SS2 2.3 patch? it nerfed lethal weapon from 50% bonus to 35% bonus. so, tweaking the damage is perfectly fine, and always has been. playing with words will not change anything.

the main problem here is that you understand "rebalancing" differently than ZB.

[6742955420cbeYankee Clipper]

Less trying to prove your point and more thoughtful conversation please. Otherwise I could just go watch the effing football game.

Good point, Koyla. I'm game.

So, ZB and NV, what changed? When this project started it was to be just bug fixes and graphical improvements. It was *explicitly* not going to rebalance the game. It was going to be different from ADaOB in that regard. There is nothing different now about the standard weapons tree than there was at that time. But, since then, you've changed the scope of the project. Why did you decide to do that? What changed?

[6742955420f83Dizzy]

Good point, Koyla. I'm game.

So, ZB and NV, what changed? When this project started it was to be just bug fixes and graphical improvements. It was *explicitly* not going to rebalance the game. It was going to be different from ADaOB in that regard. There is nothing different now about the standard weapons tree than there was at that time. But, since then, you've changed the scope of the project. Why did you decide to do that? What changed?

What changed, was their minds..... Nothing wrong with that.


On another note, do the best job you guys can do!  I can wait!

[6742955421083ZylonBane]

Some people seem to be forgetting that the initial release will be clearly labeled BETA, at which point we will be gathering community feedback based on people having actually played it, rather than hyperbolic speculative arm-flailing.

[67429554212daDizzy]

Some people seem to be forgetting that the initial release will be clearly labeled BETA, at which point we will be gathering community feedback based on people having actually played it, rather than hyperbolic speculative arm-flailing.

This ^^^^ 

[674295542159bvoodoo47]

It was *explicitly* not going to rebalance the game.

do post a link to that statement, would you kindly. also read my previous post.

the scope has never changed. we have inherited all the ADaoB modifications, some of them were tagged as "need to revert", others as "ok to keep", the rest as "we'll see". that has been there from day one 'till now.

[6742955421858Dizzy]

it changes a lot of things, but there are no changes to the game mechanics, the game should still feel like, and play like the vanilla version - the goal is to have a bugfix mod/patch that can be recommended to a first time player with a straight face.

just think of it as of a patch that LGS would release, should they've been given enough time to polish their game as they see fit.


also, I'm officially changing coming soon™ into coming very soon™.

This is the only thing I could really find that explains what the goal was/is.

[6742955421b99Yankee Clipper]

Personally I don't think there's a red line but a gradual difference between bug-fixing and better-fixing. I've always been on the progressive end of that and could explain in detail why ADaoB's changes to the AR made perfect sense. But I've learned to accept that views differ on these things.

I can understand that point of view. I would argue that it is better to separate out the two kinds of changes. That way, someone who would like to play the game with the original balance can still take advantage of the bug fixes and graphics improvements. If you decide to try the rebalance, you could load that separately and try it out.

I even thought about trying to go into the ADaOB mod and attempting to undo the rebalancing stuff and just keep the fantastic bug fixes. But, since I thought that was what was happening with SCP, I figured why go to all that trouble when it is already happening anyway?

[6742955421ddaYankee Clipper]

do post a link to that statement, would you kindly. also read my previous post.

the scope has never changed. we have inherited all the ADaoB modifications, some of them were tagged as "need to revert", others as "ok to keep", the rest as "we'll see". that has been there from day one 'till now.

See my post at 21:08:34 where I quote ZB from a year ago. It seemed pretty explicit to me. No rebalancing.