SS2 list of broken and lowpoly objects that need fixing

[67431a7b15877Olfred]

I worked on the chairs again and hopefully they are good now.

[67431a7b15a39ZylonBane]

Excellent!

[67431a7b15cc0ZylonBane]

I've noticed some issues with the ladder models, but I'm not sure what the best way is to go about fixing them.

Rick Ladder 4 (ricklad4.bin) is supposed to be 4 DromEd units tall. But it's actually only 3.99651 units tall. But more significantly, the top of one of the side rails is significantly shorter on one side than the other. So when stacking them, you can either position them so there's no gap, but some flickery overlap, or no overlap but have a gap on one side.

Rick Ladder 8 (ricklad8.bin) you'd think from the name it would be 8 units tall, right? Nope, it's 7.67535 units tall. Well, no fixing that. But this guy has its side railings at different heights on both sides, The shift on both sides appears to be the same, with the left side a little too low and the right side equally too high, so these ladders can stack with each other fine, but as soon as you try to stack them with other ladder models you get gaps or overlaps again.

Rick Ladder 16 (ricklad6.bin) is, you guessed it, not 16 units tall. But it's 16.0099, so close enough to be corrected without throwing anything off in-game. This model has the same issue as ladder 8, where the rails are high on one side and low on the other side.

Rick Ladder (rickladd.bin) is the only one that's not fucked up in some way. It's intended to be 2 units tall, and it is indeed exactly 2 units tall, with rails the same length on both sides.

What a mess.

Okay, how about this...
- ricklad4, make both side rails exactly 4 units tall.
- ricklad8, assuming the rails are the same height on both sides, vertically center them. This should result in a slight decrease in the overall model height, but preserve its ability to seamlessly self-stack.
- ricklad6, make both side rails exactly 16 units tall.

@voodoo, what do you think?

[67431a7b15e3bvoodoo47]

that they preserved the legacy of Thief ladders very well.

sure - fix, and we can then adjust map objects accordingly.

[67431a7b15f22ZylonBane]

Ideally, no map adjustments would be required.

[67431a7b16000voodoo47]

I'll take it.

[67431a7b16121Olfred]

Oh boy, I just took a look in Blender, and yeah, they are messed up.
My favorite is the built in overlap on ricklad4.

I'll see when I get some time on my hand that I will properly address the issues at hand.

[67431a7b1632cOlfred]

The whole geometry was a mess so I created a whole new one.
For the steps I gave them an even spacing, in the original models they are kinda somewhere. I can also adjust the steps to be more like the original if wanted. See the attached image, orange is the new model, black is the original.

The models have several low/high spots (at the top and bottom) so I created a number of models so you can try out which one works the best. I can still do adjustments if need. I also created a model for each size that is an exact fit the size it should have.
I've added letters to the end of each model name to better distinguish them.
ex - exact size as name suggest
l - take the two lowest spots.
h - take the two highest spots.
lh - highest spot on bottom and lowest on top.

low/high comparing the two bars potruding the ladder, not after the world orientation.

Tell me which models are the winners for you, please.

I'll do the RICKLADB.bin with the updated geometry after your feedback.

[67431a7b164d3ZylonBane]

Oh boy, we've got some testing to do.

On another topic, just asking here, how much of a pain in the ass is it to mirror a model? I've often thought it would be handy to have a flipped version of this guy:

[67431a7b165d0Olfred]

That's like two clicks.
Just tell me the model name.

[67431a7b16728ZylonBane]

Sure, that guy is console.bin. Though all its screens would have to be un-mirrored so their text wouldn't appear backwards when using SHTUP.

Speaking of backwards textures, I could have sworn this had already been fixed years ago, but the vanilla soda pack model (cans.bin) has its texture backwards on half its sides:

[67431a7b1688bOlfred]

Here's the mirrored console. As there is text on the texture I've made a second model which uses the name M13L for the texture.

Cans have already been fixed here.

[67431a7b169c6ZylonBane]

Dang it, I need to update the first post and check the SCP files.

[67431a7b16af8voodoo47]

took a look at the ladders, LH makes my head explode as it results in a non-round Z-coordinate number when floored so definitely not, H and L are kind of choose your poison, so I would say lets go with EX and just bite the bullet and adjust the concretes accordingly where necessary. least potential to bite us back down the pipeline, I think.

SCP (potentially SHTUP) only object, of course.

[67431a7b16c2bOlfred]

Hmmm, that's strange, except for the EX models, I've used the same bounding box as the original one. So in theory they should all have the same value when floored. I guess I could fiddle around with the export settings a bit and set another point as origin.
I can still shift a ladder up an down position wise if needed. The test should be more about which is the best length to go forward with as to achieve a non map fiddle way.

[67431a7b16d2fvoodoo47]

well, feel free if you want, but we probably would have to adjust the concretes no matter the model, and if we already are doing that, then we might as well just go with exact and do it right.

[67431a7b170deZylonBane]

took a look at the ladders, LH makes my head explode as it results in a non-round Z-coordinate number when floored so definitely not,

So just like the vanilla Rick Ladder 8 then. Suitability for being a drop-in replacement without having to move things around is supposed to be the Number One priority.

[67431a7b1725evoodoo47]

hmm.. no, rick1 obj 167 (ricklad6.bin) vanilla floored will give it a Z coord of -18.995, with the LH model it's -19.011 *explosion*. the ex model is -19.00 *head reconstitutes*.

agreed that drop in replacements = good, but this is something you will be stacking up, and Lego blocks are better off having dimensions that allow doing that without crying too much.

[67431a7b17439ZylonBane]

The fixed ricklad8.bin floors differently because the vanilla version has a rail on one side lower than the rail on the other side. In the fixed version both rails are the same height, but each rail is still essentially the same length. And my point wasn't that they both floor the same (obviously they don't), but that the vanilla model was also an oddball height.

A replacement that significantly changes the height of the ladder (e.g. going from 7.6 units high to 8 units high) isn't a replacement, it's essentially a new, different asset.

[67431a7b17545Olfred]

Could you give me some pointers where these ladders are stacked ingame? Best something I can use the jump to.

[67431a7b17655voodoo47]

rick1 obj 167 for example, it's in the starting room.

[67431a7b17d81Olfred]

So I just checked that ladder, and the one that comes after that (523) with a 16, 4 and 2 stacked. I noticed that in this two instances the ladders are correctly spaced so that the ex model would fit perfectly. The error in visuals that pops up is due to the x/y positions not being correctly aligned.
The ex models do have a different "floor me" point compared to the originals, but I could address that if necessary.

Is there some way I can search for object instances so I can check other ladders as well? 

[67431a7b17efavoodoo47]

type

hilight_obj_type ladders

into the Shocked command window and hit enter, all ladders will be hilighted blue.

[67431a7b180d4Olfred]

So I've checked a few maps and the conclusion is, there is no consistency.
In most cases the ladders are arranged according to their name suggested size, so you have a gap in the ladder.
Sometimes the ladders are shoved into each other so you don't have the exacpt spacing.
Every now and then the x/y values don't align with stacked ladders, so even if the z matches, you still see the connection point.

My conclusion would be to use the exact models for 4 and 16 as they are mostly stacked together, along with the 2 size one.
Didn't come across any 8 size ladder which was stacked. But I didn't check all the maps. The size of that ladder is off by the most. I have no idea what would be the best course of action for it. I guess it depends on how it would look like in the map.

Nevertheless, the ladders are the usual screwed up ness in model and in the map, so no matter how much I would tweak the models, there would always come the map problems. So the map needs to be touched anyway. But with the right model it could be minimized.

And again, if there are any wishes like a shifted position or a specific size, that's no big deal to change.