Seeking Guidance for Available SS1-styled Engines

[67436964ca03aWill011]

I'm now jacked in to the system...

For awhile, I've been wanting to do a game with the graphical look and gameplay style of System Shock 1, with borrowed elements from Deus Ex 1, Ultima Underworld 1+2, a little bit of The Nameless Mod, and other old game titles. I discovered from the TTLG forums some years ago that some open source game engines inspired by System Shock were available, like The System Shock Hack Project and REVERT3D. More recently, I've discovered some Ultima Underworld engine ports, which could possibly be used.

I don't know where to choose from, or where to begin. I'm leaning towards REVERT3D, but that engine is far from complete, and is not open source yet. It would be nice to give TSSHP a try, though I need experience with coding in order to know how to work with it.

There are other possible engines I could use, like ZDoom or Game Maker. I know that someone tried to do a System Shock TC for Doom years ago, but that project shut down, and no one has tried to replicate SS1 in Doom's engine since.

Has anyone attempted to do SS1 styled projects with REVERT 3D or TSSHP, or any other engine I'm not aware of? What do I require in order to pull off a SS1-styled game with the technology that we have?

[67436964ca248ZylonBane]

Just use the Dark engine. Trust me, it's no great trick to make it look primitive.

[67436964ca5c1Olfred]

Or go with one of the more modern engine.
You can always just switch off all the fancy and make it look old.

[67436964ca9f4Will011]

Just use the Dark engine. Trust me, it's no great trick to make it look primitive.

I never knew that. So it's probable to mod the Dark Engine to resemble the graphics of System Shock 1 or Ultima Underworld? How is it done? Has any other modder attempted to take advantage of this feature?

Or go with one of the more modern engine.
You can always just switch off all the fancy and make it look old.

The only modern engine that I could use on my system is UNITY, which I do admire. I particularly liked the UNITY game Jazzpunk. It could very well duplicate the kind of graphics I've seen in REVERT3D. I may need more information to know how to get the kind of effects and gameplay that I want.

[67436964cacb9ZylonBane]

I never knew that. So it's probable to mod the Dark Engine to resemble the graphics of System Shock 1 or Ultima Underworld?

You... uh... haven't played System Shock 2, have you?

[67436964caf62Will011]

You... uh... haven't played System Shock 2, have you?

Yes I have, and am aware that the last level is based off of the first level of System Shock 1.

What I meant was whether you could mod System Shock 2 to be even more like System Shock 1 or Ultima Underworld, by implementing features such as the fuzzy pixelated graphics, the 2D sprite enemies, and the old-style clunky mouse interface we know so well from those games?

As in, could I mod SS2 to look and feel even more retro?

[67436964cb05bZylonBane]

No you can't do that, and oh god why would you want to?

[67436964cb2f6Will011]

No you can't do that, and oh god why would you want to?

Forget the old mouse interface part. I just thought you knew of a way to mod SS2 to look even more primitive, but never mind. It seems that I'm on my own.

[67436964cb521Kolya]

I fear that you have little experience in game creation and are operating under the assumption that with today's technical resources it should be relatively easy to create an SS1 style game. Because it's so lovably simplistic and clunky. In that case you're making a mistake.
While it's true that it would be easier in some regards for professional game designers to create an SS1 style game today, it wouldn't be *much* easier. You wouldn't have to invent a 2.5D tile engine (with slopes!) and software rendering and all that jazz, but you'd still have to build the interface, the terrain, objects, AI, events...And SS1 has a lot of depth in all these areas. There's no engine you could pick that will simply hand all this to you. Most likely you'd have to build one. So if I am correct about your experience, it would be better for you to pick a simpler project.

[67436964cba42Will011]

I fear that you have little experience in game creation and are operating under the assumption that with today's technical resources it should be relatively easy to create an SS1 style game. Because it's so lovably simplistic and clunky. In that case you're making a mistake.
While it's true that it would be easier in some regards for professional game designers to create an SS1 style game today, it wouldn't be *much* easier. You wouldn't have to invent a 2.5D tile engine (with slopes!) and software rendering and all that jazz, but you'd still have to build the interface, the terrain, objects, AI, events...And SS1 has a lot of depth in all these areas. There's no engine you could pick that will simply hand all this to you. Most likely you'd have to build one. So if I am correct about your experience, it would be better for you to pick a simpler project.

I never thought SS1 was easy to replicate, nor do I find it simplistic. I'm aware there's a lot to SS1 which I want to replicate, and I don't expect any engine to automatically give it to me. I was merely seeking out counsel from experienced Shockers about the recent engines which attempted to replicate the Underworld/Shock engine, or if other retro game engines worked better than others. You're right about me having null experience with game creation, and that's why I came to you for advice.

The only reason I thought the Dark Engine could replicate what I wanted is because ZyloneBane's post misled me. (Not his fault. He didn't know how far retro I wanted to go. Still, I think that it would be a very interesting idea to for a mod which pixelifies the Dark Engine, but I'm digressing here).

I do think that REVERT3D has the qualities I want for my game idea, yet the project is not open source yet, and I am unable to contact the creator to know the full technical capabilities of the engine. I could better yet just use ZDoom, based upon what modders have done with it, such as the creation of Mega Man 8-Bit Deathmatch. (I'd recommend anyone here to give freeware game a look).

And I don't want to replicate every single complicated aspect of SS1. Just a good amount, while implementing my own A.I. and animations for the enemies.

Perhaps I should explain the concept for the game, with your permission of course. 

[67436964cbc12voodoo47]

if I had to make a guess, I'd say the Dark Mod should have enough functionality to replicate everything, but don't quote me on that.

[67436964cc0c1Olfred]

my own A.I.

good luck *snickers*

[67436964cc24evoodoo47]

yeah, no way such a project can be pulled of by a single person. just take SCP, we are pounding on SS2 assets for nearly two years now and while the first release is close, we are still not done, and that's just ironing wrinkles on something that already exists.

[67436964cc9c0Will011]

if I had to make a guess, I'd say the Dark Mod should have enough functionality to replicate everything, but don't quote me on that.

Thanks for the thought, but I'm aiming for an engine not as large, like ZDoom, REVERT3D, TSSHP, or Game Maker.

good luck *snickers*

So really stupid A.I. is hard to pull-off too? Incredible.

yeah, no way such a project can be pulled of by a single person. just take SCP, we are pounding on SS2 assets for nearly two years now and while the first release is close, we are still not done, and that's just ironing wrinkles on something that already exists.

Out of curiosity, could you show me what SCP is about? I'm intrigued.

Back on topic, all I asked was for engine expertise, and all of you are jumping to judgments about my project without knowing much about it, and how I'm going to set about doing it. Cut me some slack. That's why I came to you guys for guidance.

There is only question that i wanted to ask: Have any of you experience with working with engines which are older than the Dark Engine, or with any engine inspired by the Ultima/Shock engine (like the Abysmal Engine, REVERT3D, etc.)

[67436964ccdc2ZylonBane]

Out of curiosity, could you show me what SCP is about? I'm intrigued.

Shock Community Patch. It's a fan patch for SS2. Bug fixing, logic fixing, model fixing, text fixing, minor graphical upgrades.

[67436964cd577Olfred]

When it comes to creating games it's not a wise decision to just pick an old one because you think it was simpler therefore easier.
Older engine are simpler, yes. But are they easier? Hello no!
When you work with an old engine you have TONS of limitations and stupid quirks which are there because you had hardware limitations and you kinda had to jiggle juggle and cheat your way around it to get the shit working in some operable way.

And when you want to do something which just isn't possible in the engine, good luck, you are fucked.
Taking one of your examples, DOOM. Many people probably don't know this because the devs were kinda good in "hiding" it, but you can't have two floors (at different levels, of course) at the same place. The maps are simply build in a way where you have a base level, and a room height. So when you made stairs you simply raised the level of the floor and adjusted the height of the room to have an even roof. (This is for the original engine, don't know about the fan developments).

Something like this is unthinkable for todays standards and no one in his sane mind would like to have this limitation.

Second thing you mentioned. You want some engine which is openSource, but you can't code a single line.
It's utter nonsense wanting an openSource engine then because you won't be able to do shit!
And don't even think about the possibility to learn or look up a few lines of code and ta-da you got what you wanted. No, just fucking NO. Even people who coded for a couple of years struggle to change something on an engine whithout breaking it.
Just because an engine isn't openSource it won't mean you can't code anything on it. Ooooh no, you can code quite a lot of stuff into it.
Not being able to code anything is the case for those child's play engines where you click some blocks together and suddenly your hamster runs in circles and after some more clicking he even collects little carrots. But when you want to go anywhere just a tad more complex YOU HAVE TO CODE!

So my advice to you, pick a new engine.
Yeah, they have more functionality. Yeah, you might loose the overview at the beginning. But trust me, it will be easier in the end.
You already mentioned Unity. This engine is quite good for beginners. First of all, you get it for free (it will lack in features, yes, but hey, you don't want too much anyway!). Then you already get a toolbox for the engine, this is a big plus. You can choose in a variety of coding languages. There are tons of tutorials available for free (and some better ones for a little price). And so on and on.
Just ignore all the features you don't want. Want no proper lighting with shadows and stuff? Just don't activate it. Don't want any anti-alising? Don't make it available as an option. You want pixelated sprites? Scale em up without any smoothing filter!
Want something cool which wasn't available back then in the old engines? Congratulations, you can do it!

So really stupid A.I. is hard to pull-off too? Incredible.

Just the pathfinding alone will drive you insane.

Let me just assume you have a basic understanding of logic.
You want a stupid A.I. so the easiest way to just make it kinda work.
How would you implement that? You would probably say "Oh, yeah, stupidest way to do it, when the monster sees the player it will attack him, easy as that."
But just how does the monster see? 
So you have to build something in so the monster can even recognize the player. That alone is no easy task.
OK, easy way again. The monster does have 360° vision and can see 2m wide, after that he is just blind. Easy to code, yeah it will work.
Ooops, now the monstet attacks the player trough walls. Dammit, so now you have to check if there is a wall between the monster and the player. Arrggh... how do you do that?
You know what, let me just stop here. Else my post will get too long. And I didn't even started with the pathfinding yet, stunning!

My advice, get some A.I. somewhere. Even if you pay 100 bucks for a stupid one, that is cheap.

[67436964cd74bWill011]

http://revert3d.blogspot.com

This was the engine I was referring to as a possible candidate for my ideal project.

And this following video is an example of what can be done with the Doom engine now. Particularly with how it can be used to replicate the graphics of other older games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03QrqZoCEY

[67436964cd850voodoo47]

considering that SS1 engine was more advanced than the Doom engine, this sounds like a bad idea.

[67436964cdab4Olfred]

This was the engine I was referring to as a possible candidate for my ideal project.

Well, it's all up to you.
But why even ask when you already made up your mind anyway?

[67436964cdfbeWill011]

Well, it's all up to you.
But why even ask when you already made up your mind anyway?

...because I thought I might find someone here who knows this engine? This is the only Shock editing forum around, so I thought that the available SS1-inspired engines would be known to some of the editors here.

considering that SS1 engine was more advanced than the Doom engine, this sounds like a bad idea.

I know, but I don't have the luxury of SS1's original engine. There's the System Shock Hack Project, which may be the closest to replicating SS1's engine, but it's unfinished and difficult to work out. Doom's engine has been significantly beefed up by the editing community for awhile now, though maybe BUILD is better equipped than Doom to do something Shock-like.

Unless there was a means to do TCs with SS1, the only mods I'm aware of are the Mouselook Mod and SS1 Portable.

 

[67436964ce259Briareos H]

Since you can easily emulate the look you're aiming for with modern engines, I see no reason to specifically pursue an older one, unless you want the game to run on dated machines. UE4 or Unity will be inifinitely easier to approach than any of the other options you're considering, especially if you intend to make everything from visuals to game logic -- and you're a beginner.

Don't be misled by the 'size' of the engine. Hammering ZDOOM into shape to do exactly what you want will probably take more time than doing it in a modern engine.

This is how Lucas Pope (Papers, Please) uses the engine for his upcoming '1-bit rendered' game in Unity:

[67436964ce3c8Olfred]

Somehow it looks quite interesting.
I wonder what the shader looks like.

[67436964ce51fWill011]

I don't have the hardware for UE4. I'm using a Lenovo Windows XP. I am aware that newer engines are better equipped to do what I want than older engines. Game Maker and Unity could probably pull it off. I still have hopes for Revert 3D.

That game you showcased looks very interesting.

So no one in the Shock community has tried out Revert 3D?