How would you rebalance the weapon skills in System Shock 2?

[674386716ddd9Join2]

Was that even fucking necessary, diexp? What in my post to you warranted such a response? Still sore over our last encounter, perhaps?

"[Overpowered mindless garbage such as auto-aim and excessively overpowered weapons are fine] for the simple reason that it itself is part of the story."

You're a faggot. Do you know what you do in that case, if you absolutely MUST attempt to have your writing interfere with good game design without a care in the world by having an obtainable portable ultimate doomsday weapon in the plot? You make sure the weapon is only obtained at the end, is not obtained at all, gets stolen from the player, loses its power or other such many possible methods so we can have a gameplay experience that engages the brain. who knows, maybe we could have a story that provokes thought, emotion and such too. Now wouldn't that be nice, to have gameplay and plot synergistic with one another rather than in conflict.

[674386716e29fYankee Clipper]

I always go back to starcraft 1 as a model for balance.  It's one of those games that has a ton of replay value because it no longer matters (after many patches) which race you pick or which map you play on.  Two evenly matched players always have a fun match against each other.  Every strategy has a reasonably good counter-strategy and most everything gets used.

SS2 needs to be balanced because players want to enjoy everything the game has to offer but at the same time they want to win.  If winning is best achieved by investing all your CMs in standard weapons skills and just toting around an AR, then the player will never enjoy 95% of the other weapons and features.  If they force themselves to use everything else in the game, it feels hollow, because they end up making non-intuitive choices to solve problems in the game world, just because "I haven't used that widget or weapon in a while".  It's less immersive because the choice doesn't come naturally.  A player should get to sample a good chunk of the game's features by necessity rather than by arbitrary choice.

Having all the weapons classes evenly balanced is certainly one approach to game design. But, it is not the only one and it is definitely not the approach that LGS took. I see nothing wrong with taking the approach of making one weapon class dominant. Especially in a game with no PvP play. Yes, people new to the game will gravitate towards the class that will make them more powerful. Just like most players will not choose impossible on their first play through. So what?

On the other hand, if a weapon class is so poorly designed so that even an experienced player has difficulty in making it useful, then it makes sense to look at modding it to make it more useful. The same cannot be said for nerfing some other class because you think more people should give the other classes a chance. Constructive, not destructive!

[674386716e461Djant]

Zylonbane, that sounds like a good system. Any idea how much effort it would take to make as a mod?

Oh, and there's a difference between choosing an over powered weapon class and choosing a difficulty. A weapon class simply dictates what you have to kill the enemies, but if this is over powered, and the other weapon classes have serious flaws, it trivializes the game as it exists as the one true weapon class, with all the others becoming irrelevant.

A difficulty on the other hand changes many things to make the overall experience more difficult for a player, regardless of their choices. So ammunition becomes scarcer, enemies become more powerful, the player is weaker etc.

The reason balancing the weapon classes is important is to make it feel like all the weapon classes are worthwhile. For example, if you choose the Energy weapons class, it should not feel like you wasted a lot of resources that could go into better weapons only to get a weapon good only against robots and some mechanical enemies.

[674386716e78aYankee Clipper]

The reason balancing the weapon classes is important is to make it feel like all the weapon classes are worthwhile. For example, if you choose the Energy weapons class, it should not feel like you wasted a lot of resources that could go into better weapons only to get a weapon good only against robots and some mechanical enemies.

Why shouldn't you feel that way? Toughen up, Buttercup. Anyway, nerfing the standard weapons does not make your investment in the energy weapons any more useful. It just makes standard weapons less useful. Now the people who invest in standard weapons will have their feelings hurt as well. The horror!

[674386716effaJoin2]

Having all the weapons classes evenly balanced is certainly one approach to game design.  But, it is not the only one and it is definitely not the approach that LGS took.

If that is the case, that LGS/IG didn't care about balance then why is the majority of the rest of the game reasonably balanced, such as vendor prices, inventory size, ammo counts lying about the levels, amount of health items, AI health levels, attack strength, damage resistances etc and so on and on. They created a game with a lot of great, engaging & balanced systems. the answer is, they did care about balance. Every game dev worth his salk does, otherwise you end up with a mess of a game! They simply made some mistakes.

I don't see them making an exception for weapon classes, unless they feared the type of player that rates the game 1/10 for "not even starting me with a gun" so decided to ease up standard to provide some assistance. I see it as either that, or just a mistake in the numbers.

Yes, people new to the game will gravitate towards the class that will make them more powerful. Just like most players will not choose impossible on their first play through. So what?

To repeat myself, because xdiesp wills it:

Strategy. Meaningful choice. Challenge. Not ruin the game's tense atmosphere by having a super OP, easily obtainable class.

The same cannot be said for nerfing some other class because you think more people should give the other classes a chance. Constructive, not destructive!

Urm, nerfing some OP weapon class can be considered constructive, as you create balance by doing so. Context matters. If the one class is overpowered, you nerf the class. If it is not this class that is OP, but the others that are underpowered, then you bring them up to that level instead.

[674386716f54aYankee Clipper]

If that is the case, that LGS/IG didn't care about balance then why is the majority of the rest of the game reasonably balanced, such as vendor prices, inventory size, ammo counts lying about the levels, amount of health items, AI health levels, attack strength, damage resistances etc and so on and on. They created a game with a lot of great, engaging & balanced systems. the answer is, they did care about balance. Every game dev worth his salk does, otherwise you end up with a mess of a game! They simply made some mistakes.

I'm not saying the devs didn't care about balance, I'm saying they made a decision to make the standard weapons path an easier path than anything involving the exotic weapons class or any of the other weapons classes. It was not an oversight, it was a choice. If they managed to make some of the paths so nonviable as to be virtually unplayable, then nothing you do to the standard weapons class fixes that.

If the one class is overpowered, you nerf the class. If it is not this class that is OP, but the others that are underpowered, then you bring them up to that level instead.

Well, that's the nub of it. How do you distinguish whether it is the case that one class is overpowered vs another class being underpowered? It is all a matter of interpretation and opinion.

Every game dev worth his salk does

You seem distracted. Something else on your mind?

[674386716f8b7Join2]

Well, that's the nub of it. How do you distinguish whether it is the case that one class is overpowered vs another class being underpowered? It is all a matter of interpretation and opinion.

No it isn't, it is a matter of arithmetic.

distracted

It was intentional wordplay. Not very clever wordplay, but there you go.

[674386716faf7Yankee Clipper]

No it isn't, it is a matter of arithmetic.

ok, what's the proper equation to use?

[674386716fe2dDjant]

Why shouldn't you feel that way? Toughen up, Buttercup. Anyway, nerfing the standard weapons does not make your investment in the energy weapons any more useful. It just makes standard weapons less useful. Now the people who invest in standard weapons will have their feelings hurt as well. The horror!

Because then there's no real choice in the weapon skills in the game, all other weapon classes become irrelevant and few people will bother touching them. Imbalance creates misconceptions like "PSI skills are useless on Impossible!" which means that a lot of the game is meaningfully closed off to many players simply because one part is much better than the others.

Now I don't think the Energy weapons class is underpowered, but the classes are imbalanced. Can you tell me one good reason why the Standard weapons class should be better than the others? Why should the other weapon classes even exist then? As for challenges, people can make them on their own, they don't need imbalanced systems. There's melee weapons only playthroughs, pacifist playthroughs, pure PSI playthroughs etc. of System Shock 2.

[674386717012eJoin2]

ok, what's the proper equation to use?

You compare all the weapon stats (including math operators such as weapon skill multipliers), consider the cybermodule cost, the damage type, everything relating to the weapons (it's all numbers) and compare them with those of the other weapon classes as well as AI health, AI attack damage, and so on. All must maintain unity.
If we decide to instead buff all the other weapon skills to that of the standard weapon class level/Rifle, then we must also adjust everything else, otherwise we have a truly empowered player and AI that go down in a couple of shots with any weapon.

[674386717041bYankee Clipper]

You compare all the weapon stats (w/ math operators), consider the cybermodule cost, the damage type, everything relating to the weapons (it's all numbers) and compare them with those of the other weapon classes as well as AI health, AI attack damage, and so on. All must be in unison.
If we decide to instead buff all the other weapon skills to that of the standard weapon class level, then we must also adjust everything else, otherwise we have a truly empowered player.

Like I said, interpretation and opinion. Even though your opinion is based on certain factors that can be manipulated mathematically, you still decide what factors should have more weight and when balance is achieved. If not, you would have been able to spit out a formula that all could immediately agree on.

[674386717059dDjant]

Yes, everything is opinion. And the laser pistol is the best weapon in System Shock 2. This is my opinion.

[6743867170a70Yankee Clipper]

Because then there's no real choice in the weapon skills in the game, all other weapon classes become irrelevant and few people will bother touching them. Imbalance creates misconceptions like "PSI skills are useless on Impossible!" which means that a lot of the game is meaningfully closed off to many players simply because one part is much better than the others.

Now I don't think the Energy weapons class is underpowered, but the classes are imbalanced. Can you tell me one good reason why the Standard weapons class should be better than the others? Why should the other weapon classes even exist then? As for challenges, people can make them on their own, they don't need imbalanced systems. There's melee weapons only playthroughs, pacifist playthroughs, pure PSI playthroughs etc. of System Shock 2.

I have not seen a mod that makes the exotic weapon class as easily playable as all the other classes. I don't think anyone has even tried. It is a more difficult class to use, and it is impossible that the devs were unaware of this when they made SS2. It cannot have escaped their attention that you can pickup a wrench and start adding points to the standard weapon class before you even meet your first enemy, but you can't get your first exotic weapon until the operations deck. Further more, the exotic weapon class isn't even available at the start of the game, so it is impossible to even put points in it at the start. And if you do choose it, you also have to invest in research before you can even equip your first weapon.

This is supposed to be some accident. Something they didn't notice when they put this game out?

A ridiculous argument on its face. I don't know how someone can be so illogical that they can't see that the devs made the standard weapons class an easier path on purpose. As to why the might have made that choice... How about they expected that people would gravitate to the standard weapons class on their first play through, but then would try other things when they replayed the game. You know, a deliberate decision to make the game more interesting for those who wanted to play the game more than once.

[6743867170c26Join2]

It's all manipulated mathematically & logically. SS2's systems were balanced using spreadsheets, and then expressed mathematically in code to make the systems come to life.

[6743867171168Djant]

A ridiculous argument on its face. I don't know how someone can be so illogical that they can't see that the devs made the standard weapons class an easier path on purpose. As to why the might have made that choice... How about they expected that people would gravitate to the standard weapons class on their first play through, but then would try other things when they replayed the game. You know, a deliberate decision to make the game more interesting for those who wanted to play the game more than once.

If they wanted to do that, then there are better ways than making Standard Weapons the best class. People can replay different weapon classes by the sheer fact that they play differently. For instance, Deus Ex's pistol skills and low tech skills work for very different purposes, and while people argue that investing in rifle skills is the only correct thing to do, it isn't true as the pistol skill has a lot of damage potential from small weapons that take up one slot in the inventory, while low tech makes sneaky attacks better and allows the Dragon's Tooth to break through doors, although it is unbalanced too in some ways.

I think a better theory would be that they thought the high damage of the exotic weapons, combined with the fact that most of the enemies on board are organic, would have outweighted the flaws of the class. Now whether they managed it or not is up to debate, but remember that they couldn't do everything they wanted to, as System Shock 2 was a rushed game and was released when LGS was about to shut down due to bankruptcy. In these situations, it's natural for the developers to make a few missteps, and the weapon classes are one of them I think.

[674386717142cYankee Clipper]

It's all manipulated mathematically & logically. SS2's systems were balanced using spreadsheets, and then expressed mathematically in code to make the systems come to life.

I say it's subjective, you say it's objective. I say ok, if it is objective, lay out the criteria. You... don't.

[67438671715a5Join2]

I did. It's a case of number comparison, each and every weapon & governing skill property, case by case, like on a spreadsheet. The equation is the comparison of each individual property. Don't expect any other method as it'd be impractical.

Well, you're right, determining the balance of systems involves degrees of both subjectivity and objectivity. However, the superiority of a weapon class & that of weapons in comparison to another can be determined by numbers alone.

[67438671718feYankee Clipper]

Well, you're right, determining the balance of systems involves degrees of both subjectivity and objectivity. However, the superiority of a weapon class & that of weapons in comparison to another can be determined by numbers alone.

No, not really. How do you compare the energy class to heavy class? The heavy class needs ammo, which can be bought or found; the energy class needs rechargers (or batteries, which can be bought or found). Unless you bring psi into it, in which case there is electron cascade and molecular duplication. If you go heavy, you also have to decide prisms or grenades (or both). Then there is the factor of which weapon works against which enemies. And that all comes before we even get into differing playing styles and preferences.

Math will certainly help. I have no doubt it was used quite extensively during the development process. And then the players get their hands on it and figure out ways to work the system to their advantage, in many cases, in ways in which the devs had not anticipated, but also in ways that the devs had anticipated.

[6743867171c2dYankee Clipper]

Edit: well, the subjective balance to aim for is already set by the original devs and it is widely agreed that it is standard skill/rifle that is the discrepancy.

It is "widely agreed" by those that run this forum. Do you have any evidence that this agreement goes beyond that?

[6743867171fc0Join2]

It is "widely agreed" by those that run this forum. Do you have any evidence that this agreement goes beyond that?

It's a no-brainer for goodness sake, and is also supported by the numbers. The ammo is common, the damage output is high, the clip size generous, rate of fire swift etc. Enemies don't stand a chance. Again, to bring all other weapons up to this level would empower the player considerably, so the AI would need to be adjusted accordingly, along with just about everything else.

And that all comes before we even get into differing playing styles and preferences.

When determining the superiority of each class we would only consider that all weapons of that class will be used, because that is what is actually necessary to determine the objective superiority of a weapon class.

No, not really. How do you compare the energy class to heavy class? The heavy class needs ammo, which can be bought or found

Data relating to ammo would have to be omitted Got me there.

[6743867172401Yankee Clipper]

It's a no-brainer for goodness sake, and is also supported by the numbers. The ammo is common, the damage output is high, the clip size generous, rate of fire swift etc. Enemies don't stand a chance. Again, to bring all other weapons up to this level would empower the player considerably, so the AI would need to be adjusted accordingly, along with just about everything else.

Which proves that the devs intended the standard class to be more easily accessible. Also, I dispute that the other 3 classes are all level, with only the standard class being the outlier. The exotic class is much less useful and harder to use than either the heavy or the energy class. If I were to rate the weapons classes, standard would obviously be #1, with heavy and energy roughly on par at a step below, and exotic lagging way behind at dead last. I would also say that this was by design on the part of the devs. They put a pistol just steps away from the beginning of the game and setup the training years so that the player could start with standard weapons at level 3. Or they could start with standard 1 and their choice of heavy 1 or energy 1 and get an almost broken launcher or laser pistol. Exotic always starts out at level zero, no choice. This was all intentional.

[674386717277dThiefsieFool]

Exotic is not broken, the crystal shard is the best melee weapon by far (even if it's because of a bug) and usually a priority.

If you ignore the quite bad bugs that infest individual weapons, the weapon categories are sort of balanced other than Standard, precisely because of those bugs:
- standard: obviously overpowered since the AR kills rumblers in 3 shots and whatnot, the pistol and shotgun are ok
- energy: the EMP rifle is like an AR that works on >50% the enemies in the game, modified it holds enough ammo to kill like 10-12 assault bots, toughest mech enemies in the game
- heavy: grenade launcher is very powerful due to a bug, stronger than the AR with more rare ammo
- exotic: crystal shard is very powerful due to a bug and every point in the exotic skill makes the shard even stronger so there's nothing stopping you from upgrading exotic all the way to 6 even if you don't want the worm guns

[6743867172d1aOlfred]

[...] but remember that they couldn't do everything they wanted to, as System Shock 2 was a rushed game and was released when LGS was about to shut down due to bankruptcy. In these situations, it's natural for the developers to make a few missteps, and the weapon classes are one of them I think.

I already like you, I just wanted to bring up exact that.

Especially in single player certain imbalances are good and even wanted. But in the most cases you get the weapons for free or just with the investment of a little time to get to some secret hidden part of the level.
This is certainly not the case for SS2. Here you have an invest and return with a currency (cybermodules). Therefore it should strike a certain balance in comparision what you have invested.
You save up all this cybermodules for exotic weapons just to find out they suck and you hardly have any ammo for them to at least get some use out of them. The only good thing is the shard.
Now you feel betrayed by the game, and I don't think this was the intention of the developers.

And nerfing something is absolutely fine in this case. It's not like you get nerfed mid-game and suddenly you can't proceed anymore. Like already stated. Going the way to just up the damage of everything to remotely match the AR would require to up the HP of every enemy. Which is unecessary more work to do than just nerfing one weapon.

Back to ZylonBanes proposal. I must say I don't like it.
Not that it wouldn't be balanced or anything. I just think it would take away much of the immersion.

Currently I wouldn't be able to come up with any better balancing. I would need some cheat sheet and several hours of playing and testing to make a statement about that.

[6743867173108Join2]

This was all intentional.

Bullshit. I cannot prove it, but bullshit they would intentionally include a high-CM investment class just for it to be intentionally "broken". that they would offer those 3 year training options at the start just for there to be an objectively optimal one, and so on.
Like I said, they probably just wanted standard skill to be fairly accessible, but other than that intended for everything else to be balanced yet ran out of time perhaps, as others are saying.