How would you rebalance the weapon skills in System Shock 2?

[6743b217228fbYankee Clipper]

Exotic is not broken, the crystal shard is the best melee weapon by far (even if it's because of a bug) and usually a priority.

If you ignore the quite bad bugs that infest individual weapons, the weapon categories are sort of balanced other than Standard, precisely because of those bugs:
- standard: obviously overpowered since the AR kills rumblers in 3 shots and whatnot, the pistol and shotgun are ok
- energy: the EMP rifle is like an AR that works on >50% the enemies in the game, modified it holds enough ammo to kill like 10-12 assault bots, toughest mech enemies in the game
- heavy: grenade launcher is very powerful due to a bug, stronger than the AR with more rare ammo
- exotic: crystal shard is very powerful due to a bug and every point in the exotic skill makes the shard even stronger so there's nothing stopping you from upgrading exotic all the way to 6 even if you don't want the worm guns

I didn't say exotic was broken, I said it was less useful and harder to use. And considering you have to wait until halfway through the game to get your first exotic weapon, and then it is just a melee weapon, I'd say that was a good assessment. Specializing in exotic means you are stuck with a wrench at standard 0 all the way through medsci, engineering, hydroponics and a good part of ops. I would say that that qualifies as somewhat harder to play with than any of the other classes. Plus, you have to take exotic to 6, research to 6 (or 5 with the lab implant) and maintenance to 4 to use the top weapon. It is much more costly to use than any of the other classes. It is not even close to being balanced with any of the other classes.

[6743b21722c2bYankee Clipper]

- standard: obviously overpowered since the AR kills rumblers in 3 shots and whatnot, the pistol and shotgun are ok

Actually, it takes 4 shots. And that is with a mod 2 a/r, and the sharpshooter upgrade.

But, either way, what does that prove? Is there some place where it is written that it must take 6 shots to kill a rumbler?

[6743b21722eb4Join2]

Yes, it is written by the fact that Rumblers (and everything else) completely fail to remain a threat with the assault rifle to hand. And you want all the weapons scaled to this level?

[6743b21723158Yankee Clipper]

Yes, it is written by the fact that Rumblers (and everything else) completely fail to remain a threat with the assault rifle to hand. And you want all the weapons scaled to this level?

That must be the math you were talking about. 4 shots is wrong but 6 is just right.

Who said I wanted everything scaled to any particular level. If you are going to disagree with me, fine, but at least disagree with what I am actually saying. To repeat:

1. The developers did not design this game to have all the weapons classes balanced with each other.
2. That is perfectly fine.

Got it? Good!

[6743b21723618Yankee Clipper]

For the two annelid-based ranged weapons, I'd remove weapon degradation, and change the firing modes from anti-human/anti-annelid (which requires players to remember an almost randomly applied distinction) to anti-organic/anti-tech (the same anti-tech effect that's eating all the weapons in the game). For the Viral Proliferator, get rid of the stupid hold-to-detonate feature.

anti-tech means all mechanicals?

The entire Heavy class I'd make cheaper to level up in, since they already have their utility constrained by their specialized uses, limited ammo, and non-weapon skill requirements.

Shouldn't the pistols be cheaper than the rifles as well? Otherwise, what's the point in going with the pistols?

I'd seriously consider having NO minimum weapon skills in the non-melee weapon categories, since after all if you can pick something up, you should be able to pull the trigger. You'd just suck at it if you had low skill.

Why just non-melee? I would think it would be even more the case that if you can pickup a melee weapon you can swing it and hit someone with it.

Interesting idea for a mod. I would definitely try it out.

[6743b21723930Join2]

1. The developers did not design this game to have all the weapons classes balanced with each other.
2. That is perfectly fine.

1. I'm not convinced that that was the intention.
2. No.

Shouldn't the pistols be cheaper than the rifles as well? Otherwise, what's the point in going with the pistols?

Just a little cheaper. There are no rifles until hydro so pistols would be very valuable, which would actually be a problem in seriously influencing builds by making pistols go-to, unless ZB has no qualms with having rifles appear earlier.
By Yankee Clipper logic, this wouldn't be a problem at all either I guess?

[6743b21723c6dYankee Clipper]

Just a little cheaper. There are no rifles until hydro so pistols would be very valuable, which would actually be a problem in seriously influencing builds by making pistols go-to, unless ZB has no qualms with having rifles appear earlier.
By Yankee Clipper logic, this wouldn't be a problem at all either I guess?

What exactly am I supposed to have a problem with?

[6743b21724213ThiefsieFool]

@Exotic

Why would you specialize in Exotic when the skill is not even unlocked until Ops? You can't. Exotic is how you keep melee competitive once Ops begins, melee which you will rely on very often given how many grunt enemies there are and close quarters that make splash weapons hard to use. If you want to not waste ammo you'll need melee, for melee to not be a pain in the ass you need the shard. You get more than enough CMs that you don't need to "specialize" in a single weapons branch.

@AR

It's very simple, once you've made the habit of melee-ing grunt enemies to save ammo, you will get the kind of ammo reserves that this player has by the time you're on the Ops Deck:

(pic from https://biobreak.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/system-shock-2-bronsons-last-stand/ )

That's already enough to kill every Rumbler in the game just with the anti-personnel ammo, then you have normal and armor-piercing ammo left over plus the shotgun with its own plentiful ammo and specializable standard/antiorganic damage, nothing in the Heavy or Energy weapon categories can compete with that.

[6743b21724665Join2]

It's very simple, once you've made the habit of melee-ing grunt enemies to save ammo, you will get the kind of ammo reserves that this player has by the time you're on the Ops Deck:

Don't even need to do that. Just buy lots of maintenance tools and ammo and you're all set for a full-auto AR spree.

What exactly am I supposed to have a problem with?

Nothing, apparently.

[6743b21724a80Yankee Clipper]

@Exotic

Why would you specialize in Exotic when the skill is not even unlocked until Ops? You can't. Exotic is how you keep melee competitive once Ops begins, melee which you will rely on very often given how many grunt enemies there are and close quarters that make splash weapons hard to use. If you want to not waste ammo you'll need melee, for melee to not be a pain in the ass you need the shard. You get more than enough CMs that you don't need to "specialize" in a single weapons branch.

I'm not the one making the argument that all the non-standard weapons classes in SS2 are, by design, balanced. And therefore, the srgument goes, standard weapons are the accidental exception and need to be rebalanced to bring the game into a state of internal beauty.

Rather, I say, the classes are , by design, not balanced. To prove it, I point to the exotic class. After all, if all classes were each as powerful in their own way, you could go exclusively with the exotic class, as you could with any of the other classes. But, that is clearly not the case. Therefore, the devs did not design the game to have all classes equal. And, I say further, there is nothing wrong with that. It is perfectly fine that the standard weapon class is stronger than the others. And that the exotic class, on its own, is the weakest of all. If you want to play using that class, you have to find a way to supplement it.

[6743b21724e9fYankee Clipper]

It's very simple, once you've made the habit of melee-ing grunt enemies to save ammo, you will get the kind of ammo reserves that this player has by the time you're on the Ops Deck:

(pic from https://biobreak.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/system-shock-2-bronsons-last-stand/ )

That's already enough to kill every Rumbler in the game just with the anti-personnel ammo, then you have normal and armor-piercing ammo left over plus the shotgun with its own plentiful ammo and specializable standard/antiorganic damage, nothing in the Heavy or Energy weapon categories can compete with that.

Heh. You are right about his ammo supply, but if you go read what he has to say at the link, he is crying about his lack of ammo. And talking about how he has enough skill to use the a/r, but he is holding it in reserve - and continuing to use the pistol. I guess he doesn't know that both weapons use the same ammo, but he will use it up much quicker with the pistol.

[6743b21725115Yankee Clipper]

Perhaps Light and Medium would be better titles than Pistols and Rifles.

Or handguns and long guns. You would have to move the shotgun into the long guns, but you could stick the sfg in with the handguns to balance out that class. Downsize its screen size, and who's to say that it isn't a small, one-handed weapon? Especially since it's just a stunner anyway.

[6743b21725400Djant]

For people bringing up the +2 Standard Weapons choice you get at the Navy and Marine classes, I'll offer this explanation: I think it's because some playtesters didn't really like that as a soldier, they started with no weapon and had to rely on shoddy pistols, even on difficulties lower than Impossible. +2 Standard Weapons means that such players could defend themselves better with a shotgun they could salvage, at the cost of their character. Besides, I must say that on Impossible, +2 Standard Weapons or +2 Cyber Affinity is quite a tough choice, and even +1 Maintenance can be tempting for a Standard Weapons user, or honestly anyone using a wide range of weapons, from the Viral Proliferator to the EMP Rifle to the Fusion Cannon.

As for the Marines, they are supposed to be a weapon oriented class, so it makes sense that the choice is between improving weapons that are commonplace in their work, or learning about other weapons. The exotic weapon choice doesn't exist because they don't know about alien weapons yet. The aliens were discovered only on Tau Ceti V. Of course, attempts were made to balance this out, but I really think they ran out of time before they could polish it up, and they must have thought making the weapons effective against organic enemies would be enough since many of them are organic, especially towards the end game.

So honestly I don't think LGS was biased towards one bunch of weapons, I think it was more like they wanted the weapons to play differently and have some quirks based on their class, with Standard Weapons being an all rounder and also too conventional and the other weapon classes having a bunch of benefits, drawbacks and oddities. However, it's regrettable that they didn't polish it enough so that severe discrepancies and some bugs that existed in the weapons were removed.

Do keep in mind that by balancing the weapon skills, I don't want the weapon classes to play in the same way, I want them to play differently but feel similar, so that a player picking up Energy Weapons feels as powerful/pressurised as a player picking up Standard Weapons. This however is not something that simple. Maybe Join usss! could come up with something, I like the rebalancing he did to the weapons in GMDX.

[6743b2172582fYankee Clipper]

For people bringing up the +2 Standard Weapons choice you get at the Navy and Marine classes [...]

Actually, it's +3. You get +1 standard for joining either the Navy or Marines right off the bat, and then you can choose an additional +2 in your 2nd year of training.

So yes, after all that you said, the devs give the player a shot at +3 standard right off the bat before you even meet your first enemy. Or, you can go with +1 standard and your choice of +1 heavy or +1 energy in the Marines. For someone looking to go the energy or heavy path, +1 is wasted on standard and then you only get +1 towards your chosen path. Sounds like an imbalance. I suspect though, that it was an imbalance well known to those who wrote the game. Almost like they thought it was ok if one path was easier than others.

[6743b21725ac4Olfred]

My guess is more that LGS just wanted to give the player at least one projectile weapon no matter what they choose.
For marines and navy you get pistol. As OSA you get Cryokinesis.

[6743b21725f15RocketMan]

I believe, as Xdiesp does that telling a story cannot be constrained by spreadsheets.  However, I think one can achieve a sort of balance that doesn't make a person's choice of weapon arbitrary.  Balance shouldn't mean that 1 weapon is just as good as another.  It's fine to have a shitty weapon but maybe it should have some novelty use (like the riot gun in ss1) or at least don't make the weapon create a hole in a weapons class that renders that class pointless. 

The way I envision the perfect game experience is one where the individual personalities of 2 people is sufficient to make their path through the game differ.  If 10 people with different personalities and different play styles in other games pick up ss2 and more or less follow the same path, the only logical conclusion is that there is an obvious lack of utility or interest in all the roads not taken.  This closes the game off to a sliver of what it was supposed to be.  Concepts that were quite viable at first, are never enjoyed because exploring them is too much of a PITA or a risk or an expense or w/e.  If the AR is a super weapon, fine but maybe it should be the gun that's always busted or the one you get on the last level or the one that has no ammo.  Let the player enjoy the feeling of the uber weapon but not at the expense of every other option.  Otherwise, as I alluded to earlier, a player might be inclined to clean out the entire game with 1 gun and spend cms on 1 skill OR they might spread the wealth around because they KNOW the gun is overpowered and finish the game feeling hollow, like they had to play with their game dev hat on the whole time, deliberately tricking their brains into playing the way the game was "supposed" to be played and not how it was natural to play it.

[6743b217260e5ZylonBane]

I'm just going to leave this here: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134768/understanding_balance_in_video_.php?print=1

Gameplay is all about making choices and in a poorly-balanced game, many of the choices available to the player are essentially rendered useless.

[6743b2172636fDark Templar]

Well, being a pre-patched SS2 player (100% stock, no mods, patches, etc) I'd say my opinion here is pretty limited having almost being finished with the game. However, I invested in mostly agility, endurance, and hand to hand skill. I even used an OS Upgrade Unit for the added 15% damage inflict. I spent the most modules on hack, minimal on maintenance, a few slivers on research, and almost none on Psionics (I plan to try out Psi next play through indefinitely). I chose the Marine branch pre-training. I only just unlocked the assault rifle as well, and absolutely am in love with it. I really held off on Standard 5 until late, late in the game around the Command deck. I didn't know until reading the weapon description it took handgun ammo, lol. The AP rounds just absolutely TEAR through robotics, (like those bipedal drones) more so than even explosives appear to.

So basically you could say my initial "build" is that of berserker/hacker with enough firepower to pretty much blast most of the tougher enemies from a distance. I tend to go in for the kill with the wrench via backpedaling, sprinting around dodging their attacks. Arachnids I absolutely smash on with my wrench  as I run backwards but they are such a pain in the arse with their toxins.

The amount of X factors though just seems enormous not just based on a player's basic build but with the boosters active, if they are attacking a researched enemy, if the player is receiving some kind of damage bonus, etc. Any way you look at it in my opinion, the builds feel VERY versatile.

Could a player could go though the game as an OSA and not use a projectile weapon at all by any chance? (Only using Psi Amp?). I'm still very, very new to this game but see TONS of replay value everywhere whether it be builds, hidden items, hidden goodies, etc. I laughed one time when I found 4 nano modules in a trash can once.

[6743b2172671fxdiesp]

Was that even fucking necessary, diexp? What in my post to you warranted such a response? Still sore over our last encounter, perhaps?

Cry me a river, every discussion with you boils down to having to worship the vanilla ways because the toy is sacred. It's just a trump card to use against your COD loving peers, and you weren't even like this when you first joined in. It took about one year of Zylonbane remarks to fall in line, which is too what happened to him on TTLG.

If by "last encounter" you mean this post, indeed I would invite you to spread it around to show what a winnar you are. After being publicly targeted with racist remarks on this forum, I don't care much anymore about refreaining from speaking freely.

[6743b2172680bZylonBane]

Can we just agree that you're both insufferable.

[6743b21726a2fvoodoo47]

now I would have laughed, if I had remembered how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdJ6DnPhzk

[6743b21726c61Join2]

@xdiesp: You're acting delusional again. Anyhow, I got a temp ban last time we spoke, that along with the lies is why I shall be ignoring you from this point onward.

Can we just agree that you're both insufferable.

Speaking of banning: can we just agree it is long overdue for you, ZB?

[6743b21726d82voodoo47]

no, as he is managing without unnecessary profanity. you are free to hate anyone you want, but a certain level of decorum has to be maintained.

also, I'm having too much fun reading all this.

[6743b21726f07Join2]

ZB's actions consistently constitute as flaming. Kolya has had to repeatedly scold him, but he ultimately gets a free pass. Actions speak louder than words; flaming or profanity used figuratively and very sparingly? Hmm. 

Edit: I'm a sucker for the trolling:

"It took about one year of Zylonbane remarks to fall in line, which is too what happened to him on TTLG."

What are you referring to, my love of the vanilla design principles, said principles seen in every LGS game? My love for the "vanilla way" was primarily inspired by Deus Ex and reading up on what the developers had to say about the game, which mostly all translates accurately over to System Shock. Upon discovering SS and the rest this love only deepened.
Also, what happened on TTLG?